horse hates being groomed/rugged, touched etc

[axe1312]

@axe1312 Please understand everyone on this forum is trying to help. There are much better qualified and informed people on HHO than me. Please take note of their suggestions. Unfortunately sometimes the cure is expensive. Curing my pony cost more than I paid for him.
My vet didn’t think of ulcers until I suggested them. Look at my thread about ‘fascia’

i know, i know, its just alot, it feels like people are coming at me rather than trying to help. what if its not ulcers? then what is it likely to be?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Sadly if you have a horse you have to have the money to pay for vet treatment, one way or another. If you don't have access to actual money then you should have insurance, it's false economy not to do so.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

i know, i know, its just alot, it feels like people are coming at me rather than trying to help. what if its not ulcers? then what is it likely to be?

People are not 'coming at you' but trying to help you to understand that ulcers are the most likely reason for your horse's behaviour, probably made worse by the bute that he needed for the laminitis. Ulcers could even have been caused because of the pain in his feet, or by the sugar in his diet. Is your vet an equine specialist?

 

[toppedoff]

Everyone's said good things here. Unfortunately with horses, there is no "straight road to a conclusion or diagnosis" you're going to Have times where you spend money on something that rules something out. Doesn't mean it is a waste of money, it just tells you that was a "no" result. And it's definitely not pointless if you have an unhappy horse

 

[MereChristmas]

i know, i know, its just alot, it feels like people are coming at me rather than trying to help. what if its not ulcers? then what is it likely to be?

There is a very large member base to this forum. Although we are anonymous I am told, although I don’t know who they are, that some members are highly qualified and hugely experienced.

Everyone is trying to help and, yes, we are all pretty much saying the same thing, ulcers.
You have asked for advice, many have given their thoughts freely and kindly.
It is up to you what you do about our suggestions but if you want a happy pain free horse I feel money must be spent on veterinary fees.

 

[WBGG]

surely if he had ulcers for 4 months he wouldve thrown me off, or done something more serious than be a but grumpy being touched

Not necessarily! My mare had grade 4 ulcers and she was always safe to ride. The vets said she was just a very "nice person". Horses are incredibly stoic and are good at masking pain. She's now retired due to multiple issues (back, hocks, suspensories) I'm frequently asked why I don't just ride her as she "seems OK". I know she would do her best for me but I personally don't feel comfortable with making her suffer.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

I do hope you get to the bottom of your horse's issues. He looks lovely!

 

[expanding_horizon]

oh, hes on bute. are there any other signs? my yo said he definatley doesnt have ulcers

He’s currently on bute? And you mentioned not getting any turnout? And grumpy about being touched? And not on a low sugar high fibre diet?

 

[Landcruiser]

My alarm bells are ringing too loudly. I'm out.

 

[Dexter]

There is a very large member base to this forum. Although we are anonymous I am told, although I don’t know who they are, that some members are highly qualified and hugely experienced.

Everyone is trying to help and, yes, we are all pretty much saying the same thing, ulcers.
You have asked for advice, many have given their thoughts freely and kindly.
It is up to you what you do about our suggestions but if you want a happy pain free horse I feel money must be spent on veterinary fees.

And yet none of you are the vets/physios/saddle fitters etc that have seen this horse. This is a child posting their understanding of the situation and the horse has been diagnosed with about 10 different things by various posters, and has been roundly condemned by others.

Axe, step away from the forum, no one here can diagnose your horse. You have professionals involved who can. Explain your concerns to the vets and let them do their job. Ask them questions, listen to what they say, make notes if it helps, some vets allow you to record them which can be very helpful to look back on later. Dealing with the vets that are currently treating your horse is much more useful than posting like this.

 

[expanding_horizon]

same, ive known something isnt right from the first week, no one believed me, so i ignored it. but now that hes on bute, and ive found out it doesnt help, i realised it cant be sore body. so it must be something else. what are you thinking, ulcers? its just that he doesnt show any signs of ulcers apart from not wanting to be touched

Bute is like you taking ibuprofen it’s a pain killer but doesn’t mask all pain, a horse can still have muscle / joint / soft tissue pain despite being on bute.

 

[catembi]

I haven't read all the replies, but my old ex racer behaved exactly as you described when he had ulcers. He was downright dangerous & I was actually afraid to change his rugs or pull them straight. He didn't shed his coat that year either. He had KS surgery & his behaviour improved from dangerous to irritable. He has PSSM (p3/px) & is on AloeRide, & now sheds his coat & actually is looking pretty good. Still girthy & will swish tail & pull a face & stamp if I pull his rug straight. We did the whole omeprazole/sulfucrate/whatever thing at £1,000/month in 2015 but it didn't really make much difference as the underlying cause is that he has a muscle issue. He is 19 & we muddle on as best we can with supplements etc & I think on the whole he does still have some quality of life & enjoys being alive, so...

If you look on YouTube, there is a vet who demonstrates the pressure points for ulcers. There are three points & if you press them, the horse will react if he has ulcers. Mine does. My others don't. Might be worth a try?

 

[MereChristmas]

And yet none of you are the vets/physios/saddle fitters etc that have seen this horse. This is a child posting their understanding of the situation and the horse has been diagnosed with about 10 different things by various posters, and has been roundly condemned by others.

Axe, step away from the forum, no one here can diagnose your horse. You have professionals involved who can. Explain your concerns to the vets and let them do their job. Ask them questions, listen to what they say, make notes if it helps, some vets allow you to record them which can be very helpful to look back on later. Dealing with the vets that are currently treating your horse is much more useful than posting like this.

I don’t think anyone has reacted in any other way except out of concern and kindness.

I agree with you. We haven’t seen this horse. We don’t know it is ulcers. We suspect it may be and have advised the OP to take advice from an equine vet.

I also know from experience that some vets just don’t think of ulcers. Mine certainly didn’t, I had to suggest it after we had done various other investigations that revealed nothing at all.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I don’t think anyone has reacted in any other way except out of concern and kindness.

I agree with you. We haven’t seen this horse. We don’t know it is ulcers. We suspect it may be and have advised the OP to take advice from an equine vet.

I also know from experience that some vets just don’t think of ulcers. Mine certainly didn’t, I had to suggest it after we had done various other investigations that revealed nothing at all.

Yes I asked my horse to be scoped too due to the grumpiness and he was being treated for lameness.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I’m afraid I’m another adding to the chorus of ulcers. When M had ulcers he was still the very picture of health, shiny coat, well muscled and out most weekends competing and doing well, he wasn’t bad tempered to ride, no threats to throw me etc, the only tell tale signs were his displeasure at being groomed and being girthy to tack up.

Unfortunately ulcers are often a secondary symptom, so there could very well be an underlying issue in his neck that’s contributed to him developing ulcers, or it could be the lami, stress of being kept in off grass, or the high sugar diet exacerbating things. None of which you’ll know without a level of trial and error and investigation. What is clear is you’ve got an unhappy horse screaming that there’s something wrong. I appreciate it must be hard to get your parents to accept there’s something wrong and money needs to be spent when the professionals around you are all saying he’s fine. Hopefully your next vet visit will shed some light on the cause of his discomfort

 

[ycbm]

i know, i know, its just alot, it feels like people are coming at me rather than trying to help. what if its not ulcers? then what is it likely to be?

I've already told you it could be a million and one things and that you need people who are there with him to deal with this, starting with a good vet, not a forum. ETA Reading back your latest posts I see you have one booked for 6 days time and I agree with everyone else who says stay off the forum with this now and wait for the vet.
.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I think we need to remember that this poster is a young girl, she is 15 and while she may not be knowledgeable about this sort of thing, the way she is being replied to in some posts is uncalled for.

She is reliant on her parents to pay for the horse and action any vet treatment.
She is getting the vet out for him and will have taken on board the symptoms etc.

If I was her I would be feeling extremely confused considering she was bought this horse after a 5 stage vetting and clearly not expecting problems with him.

 

[Bobthecob15]

The horse on our yard who had ulcers had a 5 stage vetting, she was a sweet, quiet ideal first pony when they viewed and at the vetting. Just days after her arriving she was exactly as you described in the stable, lashing out, biting, also bucking when ridden and very unhappy...they had the same vet out to see her at home and he couldn’t believe it was the same horse. A scope confirmed ulcers, they suspect it was brewing in the background due to how she was kept (sales livery at a riding school, very little grass, when they were on the yard they didn't have access to hay etc) but the move to the yard they think really set the ulcers off....anyway she had a month of treatment and her repeat scope was all clear and she's back to the pony she was. She remembers she was in pain before and the vet said it takes time for them to learn that the same activities won't be painful now...but she's so much better so there is a good chance of things improving if you can treat the initial cause etc...she needs ongoing medication and if they go out to a show etc she has to have some extra omeprazole before and on the day...but its manageable.

Hope you get some answers soon from the vet x

 

[Surbie]

I think we need to remember that this poster is a young girl, she is 15 and while she may not be knowledgeable about this sort of thing, the way she is being replied to in some posts is uncalled for.

She is reliant on her parents to pay for the horse and action any vet treatment.
She is getting the vet out for him and will have taken on board the symptoms etc.

If I was her I would be feeling extremely confused considering she was bought this horse after a 5 stage vetting and clearly not expecting problems with him.

Absolutely agree and all credit for coming on here for some additional pointers. I would hope it's been helpful to have so many saying to talk to the vet about ulcers.

 

[axe1312]

People are not 'coming at you' but trying to help you to understand that ulcers are the most likely reason for your horse's behaviour, probably made worse by the bute that he needed for the laminitis. Ulcers could even have been caused because of the pain in his feet, or by the sugar in his diet. Is your vet an equine specialist?

yes she is. this behaviour isnt new sinse his feet. hes been like it sinse the day i got him

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

yes she is. this behaviour isnt new sinse his feet. hes been like it sinse the day i got him

In that case, I would definitely suspect ulcers, which he probably had in his previous home and have been made worse by the change of home. Then worse again by the bute/laminitis/sugary diet.
I am surprised that an equine specialist vet didn't tell you to feed him nothing but fibre while he is recovering from laminitis.

 

[axe1312]

I haven't read all the replies, but my old ex racer behaved exactly as you described when he had ulcers. He was downright dangerous & I was actually afraid to change his rugs or pull them straight. He didn't shed his coat that year either. He had KS surgery & his behaviour improved from dangerous to irritable. He has PSSM (p3/px) & is on AloeRide, & now sheds his coat & actually is looking pretty good. Still girthy & will swish tail & pull a face & stamp if I pull his rug straight. We did the whole omeprazole/sulfucrate/whatever thing at £1,000/month in 2015 but it didn't really make much difference as the underlying cause is that he has a muscle issue. He is 19 & we muddle on as best we can with supplements etc & I think on the whole he does still have some quality of life & enjoys being alive, so...

If you look on YouTube, there is a vet who demonstrates the pressure points for ulcers. There are three points & if you press them, the horse will react if he has ulcers. Mine does. My others don't. Might be worth a try?

can you share the link please?

 

[axe1312]

In that case, I would definitely suspect ulcers, which he probably had in his previous home and have been made worse by the change of home. Then worse again by the bute/laminitis/sugary diet.

wouldnt a vetting pick it up

 

[sbloom]

can you share the link please?

This should help, not sure which exact video - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kerry+ridgway+ulcers

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

wouldnt a vetting pick it up

No because ulcers can only be diagnosed by scoping, or sometimes by giving a course of medication to see if it works.

Eta, vettings are looking at specific things, eyes/heart/lungs/soundness, *on the day*. Sometimes buyers will ask for x-rays of limbs because they need to know that the horse is likely to stay sound and the ordinary 5 stage vetting can't tell them that.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

wouldnt a vetting pick it up

Ulcers wouldn’t get picked up at a vetting unless the horse is exhibiting symptoms at the time, and even then the vet would most likely flag as needing further investigation rather than jumping straight to diagnosing ulcers. As far as I’m aware the only way to diagnose is to scope, or possibly do a treatment trial and see if there’s improvement, although that wouldn’t tell you what level of ulcer you’re treating.

As others have mentioned it’s not uncommon for a change of home to be the tipping point for ulcers. So you could have a horse seem absolutely fine at a vetting, only to present as yours does weeks later.

 

[Glitter's fun]

He may have had ulcers at the time of the vetting or maybe not. They can be caused by the stress of moving homes.
I know someone who works on a commercial yard, dealing with a horse breed that are prone to ulcers. They put all the new arrivals on ulcer medication for prevention.
You said on a previous thread that he was great for 2 weeks, then had his first episode of "pain behaviour".

No one you ask on-line will tell you what definitely is or isn't wrong. From this distance they can only give you ideas of what to discuss with your vet.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Apologies if I missed it, but out of interest @axe1312 was he bought from one of the local dealers?

 

[Bobthecob15]

He may have had ulcers at the time of the vetting or maybe not. They can be caused by the stress of moving homes.
I know someone who works on a commercial yard, dealing with a horse breed that are prone to ulcers. They put all the new arrivals on ulcer medication for prevention.
You said on a previous thread that he was great for 2 weeks, then had his first episode of "pain behaviour".

No one you ask on-line will tell you what definitely is or isn't wrong. From this distance they can only give you ideas of what to discuss with your vet.

Agreed. There isn't any option for you but to get the vet to investigate for ulcers and other causes of pain, sadly x

 

[Smitty]

This is by no means advice to the OP, but I have suffered from ulcers and as a result am on Omeprazole daily. As I understand it, I should not use Ibuprofen as it will irritate the stomach linings. Is Bute not the same thing? I seem to remember my horse had Danilon for that very reason.

So, would the Bute be making whatever stomach problems the horse may have worse?

 

[Barton Bounty]

This is by no means advice to the OP, but I have suffered from ulcers and as a result am on Omeprazole daily. As I understand it, I should not use Ibuprofen as it will irritate the stomach linings. Is Bute not the same thing? I seem to remember my horse had Danilon for that very reason.

So, would the Bute be making whatever stomach problems the horse may have worse?

Yeah it aggravates them