Horse preferences, how much does the horse's opinion count?

[palo1]

And thinking somewhat more light-heartedly, one of my horses would most definitely prefer not to be confined at dinner time as he would definitely prefer to eat his mate's dinner which has oats in. Oats give him hives so he is not allowed; it annoys him every day!! I could remove oats from the other horse's food (though his preference would be to have oats) so that no-one felt upset but...
The same horse that wants to eat oats that give him hives would also choose to gallop really fast across rough ground and down steep hills; that is definitely an expressed preference (thanks to experimentation riding with only a headcollar). That true expression of athleticism and confidence is great but not safe for either of us so I have to curtail that too. I am just a fun-sucker!! Where and when is it appropriate to draw the line about preferences? If a horse doesn't want a veterinary treatment should we respect that? Would that not be a get-out for neglect or lack of discipline/education in keeping animals? Would that, taken to apply to dogs for example, not result in some pretty dire consequences?

 

[paddy555]

You don't think a horse and their human are a partnership? Or do you think that because the human purchases the horse, they cannot claim the horse has any say in the relationship?

I think they are a p'ship but the human is the senior partner as they have to protect the horse. The human knows the dangers of the human world. The horse doesn't.
I was not sure from your post which you thought, especially if the horse said "no"

 

[Sandstone1]

Would it help to take him to some lovely hacking? Maybe just take him for a short journey then back home again? Is it the travelling he dislikes or the lesson or competition hes going to?

 

[planete]

"Given a totally free choice". If you go down that route, I am not sure many horses would chose to do any of the things we ask them to do. They may not particularly dislike them but would probably prefer doing their own thing.

 

[ycbm]

Would it help to take him to some lovely hacking? Maybe just take him for a short journey then back home again? Is it the travelling he dislikes or the lesson or competition hes going to?

It's going away from home he would choose not to do. He perfectly happy to do all the things we do when we get there. He's probably the same about hacking from home, he wouldn't chose to go out of the gate but he's perfectly happy to do it if I ask him to. Other horses are someone keen to be off out the gate before I've got the girth done up. He's a home boy
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[palo1]

I think they are a p'ship but the human is the senior partner as they have to protect the horse. The human knows the dangers of the human world. The horse doesn't.
I was not sure from your post which you thought, especially if the horse said "no"

I think this is horribly flawed tbh. It is abundantly clear that humans often do not know the dangers of the human world for their animals. The human may have power over an animal but that does not mean that they always know best or that they feel any onus on them to 'protect' the horse. Some ideas of 'protection' are also pretty grim or actively damaging.

 

[ycbm]

"Given a totally free choice". If you go down that route, I am not sure many horses would chose to do any of the things we ask them to do. They may not particularly dislike them but would probably prefer doing their own thing.

This is what I think, I think. I feed him and give him an easy life, and in return he agrees to leave home for me when he would choose not to if left to his own devices.
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[SatansLittleHelper]

I've had horse who anticipated and two who would get on any open lorry even of it wasn't there for them. This is definitely, but quietly, I don't want to go, I will go if you ask.

When he was 4 and had multiple sarcoids, he would often pop out a new one when I took him anywhere.
.

This last bit would make me question levels of stress....is it the travelling and/or the destination he finds/found stressful. I don't think asking him to do something he doesn't like is a terrible thing unless it was causing him pain or excessive stress. One if my dogs HATES the car, shuts down completely, however he does love the end result of going to a show (when he was being shown) or a run in the field.

 

[ycbm]

This last bit would make me question levels of stress....is it the travelling and/or the destination he finds/found stressful. I don't think asking him to do something he doesn't like is a terrible thing unless it was causing him pain or excessive stress. One if my dogs HATES the car, shuts down completely, however he does love the end result of going to a show (when he was being shown) or a run in the field.

I agree SLH, and if the sarcoids hadn't stopped, or if he'd got ulcers, he wouldn't ever leave home.
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[Flame_]

I've been musing about some of the threads about cruelty, and I've got a genuine situation which I would love to know other people's views on.

I own a horse who will not touch his food if he sees or hears me go anywhere near the van before he has finished his breakfast, or if the ramp is left open. I would not be able to catch him if he saw me do the van first. It's very clear that he does not want to be taken away from home. He gets in it seemingly perfectly happily and travels really well, but it nags me that it's so obvious that if it was his choice he would never go anywhere in it. He does it for me, because I ask him to.

I sometimes wonder what right I have to ask him to do something he makes it so clear he doesn't want to do, even though he does it willingly when asked. Views?
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My horse hates being asked to move over, particularly if touched/ pushed. He's trained. He understands "move over, please", with a hand up indicating a potential push. 9 times out of ten he will move over (often with a scowl on his face) but every, say, 10th time he'll pin his ears back, clamp his feet, swish his tail or even lift a leg towards me. He's always done it, he always will and I wish he didn't have an issue about having to move for me, but he does and we sometimes have to have discussions about it.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I’d like not to go to work Monday to Friday. However it pays me, so I can afford to keep myself and my horse. So working is a necessary evil.

My managers and colleagues treat me with consideration and respect at work and it is a nice working environment but I still have to work when I’d rather be at the yard playing ponies.

 

[stangs]

I think they are a p'ship but the human is the senior partner as they have to protect the horse. The human knows the dangers of the human world. The horse doesn't.

But, equally well, the horse often knows the natural world better than its human does. I recall an incident where I was riding out over a Welsh mountain. The rider in front of me tried to get the horse to step through what looked (to her eyes) like a bit of soggy ground. The horse had been raised on various terrain, so he was saw that ground as what it was - a bog - except he'd been taught to be too submissive of a soul to disagree with his rider for long. And then, it was his responsibility to jump out of the bog and get them out of that mess.

Just one example where the horse knew the dangers a lot better.


In answer to the OP:
On an ethical level, I think you can 'get away' with a lot more if you're providing the 5 five freedoms. But, generally, I wouldn't be travelling the described horse any more than necessary to make sure he can be travelled, e.g. if he needs to go to the vets.

I suppose, with R+, one could theoretically re-program his mind to enjoy travelling. But the ethics of that are another kettle of fish.

I wonder if he'd enjoy it more if he was travelling with a herd mate though? Or, what if you drove him a little while away, and then rode him back home on a nice hack - might work to make him think he's not being completely torn away from home every time he steps on the lorry?

 

[milliepops]

I don't think it's a parallel to discuss humans and horses working, at least not leisure horses. they are dependents rather than wage earners.

in the OPs case if the horse is relaxed and does his work happily at the other end i'd probably continue to plug away quietly for a while longer if it was important to me to be able to go out and about. with a view to giving up if i felt that he was becoming more stressed, down the line.

I've pretty much only ever had bad travellers at the outset, so arguably all of them could be said to not want to leave home, but all have become quite happy campers with a sensitive and personalised approach so i think it was fair to gently press them on the issue.
So i think it's fair to ask, and also right to adjust expectations based on the horse's reply.

 

[ycbm]

But, equally well, the horse often knows the natural world better than its human does. I recall an incident where I was riding out over a Welsh mountain. The rider in front of me tried to get the horse to step through what looked (to her eyes) like a bit of soggy ground. The horse had been raised on various terrain, so he was saw that ground as what it was - a bog - except he'd been taught to be too submissive of a soul to disagree with his rider for long. And then, it was his responsibility to jump out of the bog and get them out of that mess.

Just one example where the horse knew the dangers a lot better.


In answer to the OP:
On an ethical level, I think you can 'get away' with a lot more if you're providing the 5 five freedoms. But, generally, I wouldn't be travelling the described horse any more than necessary to make sure he can be travelled, e.g. if he needs to go to the vets.

I suppose, with R+, one could theoretically re-program his mind to enjoy travelling. But the ethics of that are another kettle of fish.

I wonder if he'd enjoy it more if he was travelling with a herd mate though? Or, what if you drove him a little while away, and then rode him back home on a nice hack - might work to make him think he's not being completely torn away from home every time he steps on the lorry?

It isn't travelling he minds, he travels really well, it's going away from home.

 

[stangs]

It isn't travelling he minds, he travels really well, it's going away from home.

In his mind though, presumably, the two are one and the same.

 

[ycbm]

In his mind though, presumably, the two are one and the same.

I don't think so. I think if he minded travelling he would sweat, look stressed on camera and be really happy to get out, and he doesn't do any of those things.






I'm not looking for advice for him, BTW, , just musing on the ethics of horse keeping.
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[Goldenstar]

All my horses would like a transfer to someone who does not restrict forage sadly I am the only one in charge of the transfer list .

 

[milliepops]

I'm not looking for advice for him, BTW, , just musing on the ethics of horse keeping.
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iffy ground, the edge of that rabbithole

 

[ycbm]

All my horses would like a transfer to someone who does not restrict forage sadly I am the only one in charge of the transfer list .

?

 

[AdorableAlice]

What an interesting subject. I think we have a partnership with our horses, because most of us do things alone, even if it is just everyday care and lets face it, if 700kg says no the argument is pretty one sided.

Travelling is often stressful for horses even if they don't show it, it is also strenuous, there was an interesting article a few years ago where horses had been heart monitored whilst travelling and the energy expended was judged to be working at trot. I would think a very seasoned traveller would be less stressed but who knows.

My lot are all very different, the vastly travelled competition horse travelled very well and thousands of miles but he had a little quirk with loading at dressage events. He refused to load if he didn't do 2 tests and it came to light at a championship when he only had one class. He loaded perfectly if we loaded him with his tack on in between tests, but if we untacked him and dressed him for travel tied up outside the truck he would not load unless he had done 2 classes. I will never forget the embarrassment of a non loading horse at Addington. Showing was never a problem only dressage days. At least we eventually learnt. When he retired he would stop eating and sulk every time the lorry went out without him and that lasted 2 years.

Alice is a nightmare, if she so much as thinks she is going out she starts projectile poo and is a bundle of stress, yet gallops on to the truck and travels well. Half a mile from home she starts banging. She always performs well and is relaxed at shows but I very much doubt she actually wants to go to parties. She notices the show stuff being taken out of the tack room and instantly knows something is up. I have plaited her on the lorry in the past.

We all know the history of Ted, the rather large bundle of anxiety and unpredictability. He will load and travel like a dope on a rope, never moves, munches his way there and back, you would think he of all horses, would be an utter nightmare to squash into a moving rattling prison but no, not a bother. The maxi cob mare is an embarrassment, if she sees a ramp she is up it and shouting 'lets go then'. She loves going out, it is a pity our trips out have ended. Her face is such a picture when she is heading to a lorry ramp.

Horses are amazing creatures, they do so much without question for us, much of which does not come naturally to them.

 

[Caol Ila]

Foinavon has lived wild, and he is a keen bean to get into his stable when the weather is pants. But he also hates the 'round ups' that happen when yard staff catch horses, so I will owe fellow liveries my firstborn child in order to be sure friends can bring him in when I can't.

Gypsum's opinion counted for a lot. If she took an irrational dislike to a yard, your only option was to move. Otherwise, she would fencewalk. She liked it when people understood her. The staff at my current yard told me she liked having "slaves," and I said, "Yes, I'm aware. I am Slave #1." But they were happy with that. So was she. The YO who'd chucked us off her property two weeks beforehand would never think of herself as a slave to an imperious mare. Gypsum had lots of views, and I did my best to accomodate that.

Hermosa still thinks she wants to be pregnant and barefoot, so I am working on dissuading her of that as a career choice. I'm not a complete sucker.

 

[Mule]

Mine used to be very herd bound. When I first got him he would get very upset leaving the others. He was fine to load but when he was in, he'd get stressed. He'd weave and violently paw.
The way I saw it was that he had to be able to leave in the box. He may need to go to the vet or something important. It took time but it got to the point where he didn't bat an eyelid.

I took things much more gradually when leaving the others to go hacking. That was something we had time to work on but leaving in the box was something that I didn't want him to say no to.

Because he was herd bound and nappy the poor thing has had to do quite a few things he hasn't wanted to do. I managed it as patiently and sensitively as I could and his confidence has grown to that of an average horse.

There are places he enjoys going now. He gives an excited neigh when we drive up to a xc course we school at (it's quite cute)

 

[scats]

Millie gets quite stressy when the wagon comes out. She starts endlessly pooing and attempts to ‘hide’ in the corner of the stable. It does make me feel quite guilty, but she loads perfectly, travels absolutely fine tucking into her haynet on the journey and appears to have an absolute ball when she’s out (particularly if we go to a farm ride!) so this does lessen my guilt somewhat.
Millie would far rather stand in the field or stable eating and getting fat. She’s very much one of life’s ‘minimal effort’ types and, prior to me owning her, that was the life she had. She was rarely ridden and when she was, she didn’t do much. I joke that I came along and ruined her life
But she has a good life- safety, food, a lovely home with perfect turnout all year, a companion that she adores, the best veterinary treatment… etc

I have, however, lowered my expectations of her in general. I haven’t decided yet if we are going to carry on with our lessons this year as I felt that last year there were times that I didn’t feel comfortable with pushing her the way my trainer wanted me to. She did everything I asked, but I could tell that she wasn’t always enjoying it and that’s not how I want it to be for her. She mostly enjoys hacking and farm rides and that’s our main focus, a decision I have made based on how I feel Millie responds to the activities we do. I’ll chuck a few competitions in for fun, but largely just for the change of scenery.
No doubt she’ll still be stressy when the wagon comes out again this spring, but you can guarantee that she’ll be galloping with her ears pricked an hour later and chucking the odd gymnastic move in for fun!

 

[SEL]

I'm sure most horses would prefer to stay home with their mates and unlimited grub but if he's travelling well and not balking at getting on the lorry then I honestly wouldn't worry if he was mine.

Microcob has spent a lot of time travelling to the vet. I'm sure she'd prefer not to do that (so would my bank balance) but she gets on the lorry without fuss because she's a lovely natured, easy pony.

 

[ycbm]

I have, however, lowered my expectations of her in general. I haven’t decided yet if we are going to carry on with our lessons this year as I felt that last year there were times that I didn’t feel comfortable with pushing her the way my trainer wanted me to. She did everything I asked, but I could tell that she wasn’t always enjoying it and that’s not how I want it to be for her.

I did exactly the same.
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[I'm Dun]

"Given a totally free choice". If you go down that route, I am not sure many horses would chose to do any of the things we ask them to do. They may not particularly dislike them but would probably prefer doing their own thing.

I work on a similar principle for my old boy. Hes always tacked up completely loose. If he walks away he doesnt get ridden. He owes me nothing, but does love hacking out, so I let him choose. The same does not apply to food and grazing though Im afraid! If he had his way he would stand in his stable 24/7 and have endless food brought to him. Not happening!

 

[Equi]

Another example of how I’m a bit of a push over lol my littles tend to decide if they’re coming in or not. Yesterday for example it was wet and miserable but they had hay in the shelter and could have stayed out. I opened the shelter door that leads to the stables and they all came through and went to their own stable. I hadn’t mucked out yet so they could have left again while I mosied about but no one did. They all got a dinner and tucked in for the night. This morning they were all still lying down in bed at 8am so got breakfast in bed ?

if they need to come in, I make them. If they need to go out I make them. If it is one of those days where either choice doesn’t make a difference to me, they choose and it isn’t always the same choice so they’re not just institutionalised and coming for food.

 

[Zuzan]

It isn't travelling he minds, he travels really well, it's going away from home.

I have a very similar issue.. mine loves hacking out but dislikes travelling away .. I wonder if it's a bit like us being home sick .. and I also wonder whether if they were travelling with a herd (even if it was one other) that would ameliorate their unease.

 

[honetpot]

We had an old lorry we used to field hop with, so going out in it there was always a chance of going out for fresh grass, they would practically load themselves. A week of pony club and by the last day, not so keen. When they used to go out a lot, they always got a treat in the lorry, and I am not a fiddler. They come off the lorry, are checked and they go out
I have always just thought it was easier to find out what the horse is good at, or has enthusiasm for, and work on that, I have seen horses drilled in circles day after day, and they never have a spark, and of course the ones that object are classed as naughty.
My NF mare would never go through puddles willingly, I could make her but she would rather not, so she walked around them, she also never liked dogs off the lead when out, her whole body would quiver, but the dogs at home never bothered her. Old pony that I sold as a sweet natured young pony, has come back as really grumpy, I know he hasn't been mistreated as such but I think he has been made to do things, and had things done to him that he didn't enjoy, so now he views every approach as something to be wary of.
There is an idea in riding that to be a good rider you have to make them do things, because I was never a good rider I had to use my brain to make them think it was either a good idea, or the steps are broken down so it may take longer, or you avoid it and do something else that you both want to do. If you are both enjoying something, it's just so much nicer.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Good question, one I have about hacking the Fell alone ( he doesn’t like it but I do) and one I have *given in* on regarding clipping the Fell’s beard ? (he hates it, it’s not necessary so I don’t-he stands at liberty to be clipped everywhere else)

travel is a tricky one, I do believe it’s harder for horses than we realise. I had a horse that seemingly loved to travel and go places, he began to be difficult to load and with hindsight that was probably the beginning of his stifle issues but well before any sign under saddle (I am NOT suggesting any discomfort in OPs horse). One of my dogs doesn’t care to travel, he’ll get in when asked and has fun the other end but he suffered terrible travel sickness as a pup and even though there’s no physical sign of it now, I can tell he doesn’t love the car.

Fell doesn’t like to hack alone and having had a horse in the past that lived to hack for hours a day alone, I didn’t realise a few years back what a big ask it was for some. So I started doing the normal thing of riding through it etc but neither of us was having fun. Last year I started to train up the Exmoor as a pack pony, and we go on walking hacks (Fell seems to love this) and hopefully this year we will start ponying the Exmoor. Or maybe ride the Exmoor and pony the Fell lol, as Exmoor is more whizzy.
Fell pony seems to enjoy Trec and archery, so we will do that at home.

the Exmoor was feral when I got him and because I am on my own, I had to learn a different way of doing stuff. It was him that taught me how powerful it is to teach things at liberty and to give them a choice. he does all the things normally trained horses do-we just got there by a different route.