Horse turning nasty.

[ILuvCowparsely]

Topaz Tiger we had a livery like this but it had no excuse it was pampered to much . Its an ex livery now.


Have you though of clicker training??
or behaviour expert.
?

There are lot of books on behaviour one is called Perfect Manners.

 

[Old Bat]

Hi, its always difficult to comment without seeing things first hand but my immediate thoughts would be hormonal or tumour related, so if I were in your position these are the two things I'd want to have investigated. Just one thing, though, which you can't change, if the stallion was nasty as well then why on earth was he used for breeding?! Good luck and keep safe.

 

[Armas]

Can't comment but thought I would send you a cyber hug x

 

[Goldenstar]

I bred one a bit like this if I had bought I would have said it had been mistreated when it was three it attacked me while I was grooming it I was brushing its shoulder and it just attacked it was really meanlt.
I viewed breaking it with horror it was a very very nasty horse I bred it was down to me I was not prepared to back it ,I PTS.
OP sometimes like people you meet a not very nice one , until this horse I would have said no bad horses onle bad people but it not always so.

 

[Dolcé]

I really don't have any constructive advice but wanted to offer support really, a total idiot owning a horse that becomes like this can be blamed for causing the problem but when you have such an experienced owner then you have to look to the horse and his reasons for turning. I do wonder if turning away in a strong herd may help, just to have him put back in his place by his peers, but then there is the risk it will make him even worse with human handlers if not handled every day. I really feel for you, what a horrible position to be in, I'm afraid I simply could not handle the responsibility of a horse that is basically becoming dangerous and I know I wouldn't have the guts to go anywhere near it so I applaud you for sticking with him. I really hope you can find a solution and that he goes on to become the horse youwant him to be. xx

 

[whiteclover]

Just a thought have you tried getting an RA out - intelligent horsemanship person. They are very knowledgeable and may be able to help.

I bought a horse last year who was horrible on the ground with me. He'd rear coming out of the field. He was a lovely horse in the field but try to move him and he'd start rearing and planting his feet and nothing would get him to move. I had an intelligent horsemanship woman out who said its going to take some time to sort this horse out. I noticed that when he went back to the guy I bought him off he put the leadrope through the noseband of the headcollar. So he knew he was horrible on the ground. He got sold a month later to a hunt family and the son is now hunting him.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Do you think that he might have been ear twitched in the past?

I've had to work so hard with my gelding who was only ear twitched once (by a Vet - the breeder was horrified and never used the Vet again) and it really had a negative impact on his trust in humans.

 

[maree t]

I am sorry that I cant offer any constructive advice but have to say I am following this thread with great interest.
We have a NF pony that at 3 started getting a bit nasty , he would chase me out of the field trying to bite and kick etc. I think he just needed to do more. I put him in with my shetland cross mare who gave him a kicking and we had no more problems, we also backed him early and just pottered around with him so that his brain had better things to do. He still nips a bit but is the best pony we have ever had.
We also aquired a mare last year that had had a bit of a rough time. I have cared for her and fed her , grromed her etc but we have come to the conclusion that she just doesnt like me. We had dreadful trouble with her last year and even early this year until we worked it out . Now I just leave her to the kids to sort out and she is turning out to be a great pony and I can hold her for them when they have to do stuff without her trying to bite me.
I wish you the best of luck and admire your perserverance, you are a lot braver than me !!

 

[Persephone]

I can't help thinking he may improve with more turnout, the current lack of it must be stressfull even if it doesn't appear so. He must be bored witless!

 

[Ladyinred]

I can't help thinking he may improve with more turnout, the current lack of it must be stressfull even if it doesn't appear so. He must be bored witless!

This ^^^ In some horses lack of sufficient turnout can have one of two different outcomes. Either they can become shut down and retreat mentally, or they can find some sort of vice for amusement, and this nastiness is as much of a vice as weaving/cribbing etc.

If he were mine I would have him turned out 24/7 but brought in at least once a day for a tiny feed, a groom and a check over. Coming in and interacting with humans would become a very positive experience for him.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Well I've just re-read this whole thread and your replies to some people and I think given how he is going at the moment that you and doing wonderfully well with him.

Does he ever get turned out with other horses?

I'm wondering if it isn't pain related (although not sure about this following your comment that the bites followed contact on the same side every time) if it's something as simple as he isn't getting out enough and getting to do enough.

Either way he needs to learn it isn't acceptable to behave like this and also to invade your space. Reading it again it reads in parts as if he's trying to be head of the herd with you. The biting and kicking are all what he would do to take his position in the herd so somehow you need to establish the top notch as yours.

We had something very similar with one of our 4 year olds who is still very much a work in progress but not as bad as yours from the kicking point of view and it's taken a long time working on short bursts of a little grooming - if he's good lots of positive talk, parts and rewards but keeping it very short so we end on a positive. If he's naughty/bad mannered then we try to stand our ground and let him know it's not acceptable and turn it around so he finishes on a positive.

In hand he's really good but it's taking a long time to get his behaviour on our terms and not his - depending on how he's feeling! His behaviour really went south when we recently introduced another gelding - to the degree that we had to seperate him out from the others.

He's not a rig but was cut late. We're currently doing lots of work with his manners with him on his own before we try him back with the others. In his case we've gone right back to basics although he isn't yet broken. He's miles better than he was but it's taking a lot of work.

I applaud you too for sticking with your horse and trying to find answers. I'm sure there are some answers but if it were me I'd go right back to basics and start from there - from where you would with halter breaking through to grooming one step at a time, all the time building a relationship with him that lets him know clearly who is in charge.

I know it's difficult but you also need to be able to approach him without expecting him to misbehave because if you are wary and expecting it that puts you on a different footing with him in that your body language and demeanor will transmit this to him - even if you don't realise this. So confident "I'm in charge here" is what's needed.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

if the nastyness happened for no reason my thoughts would be different, but there is generally something behind it,
the front end starting concerns me.

I agree with you OP, it sounds like there is a physical problem, although I do wish people would consider temperament as well as talent/looks when breeding.
I think the horse's over-the-top reaction is because of her previous experiences whilst being treated but I would be investigating the pain route further. Would your vet recommend a physiotherapist? I would also look at diet - I used to own a mare who became dangerous to ride & handle when fed cereal/sugar - it took us ages to work out that was the problem.

 

[YasandCrystal]

Please do consider pain. Listen to your horse. I am not fluffy honestly. My WB was aggressive and got progressively worse; he was broken and passed a 5 stage vetting and was at first ok ridden. Dreadful to be handled and groomed - he would try to kick, bite strike and rear up. In the end I had him scoped he had low grade ulcers and then he was finally diagnosed with sacro illiac dyfunction at Newmarket. He had been in chronic pain probably for several years, so no wonder he was an aggressive grump all the time.

He like your horse had a sire that was temperamental and was gelded due to his temperament in the end, however there is a big difference between an alert and lively competition horse and an aggressive one.

If you speak to any horse behaviourist they will tell you that horses being flight animals will not waste energy being aggressive to humans - it is simply not in their nature. There possibly do exist some nasty horses, but as my vet concurred it is highly unlikely and more likely that there is a physical reason.

Personally I would get out a good body worker to the horse first and maybe a communication - it worked for me. My horse was diagnosed - rehabed and treated - turned away and is now a sweet natured horse. He will still rear full up on the ground when he is scared, but he never does that with any aggression these days and I can reprimand him without fear of him coming back at me too.

Oh yes and mine is sugar and cereal intolerant too - so his gut was hurting as well as his SI

 

[Tammytoo]

He's been through a few painful procedures in the past, so people are probably not on his Xmas card list at the moment, plus what seems to be a lot of box rest with very little turnout. He may be defensive, frustrated and angry at what he sees as a pretty poor lifestyle at the moment. Can he not be turned away for a few weeks to unwind and relax?

There may also be pain issues.

 

[jhoward]

well said horse has just been to his first comp... He had a hiisy fit
pissed off aimed feet at people trying to catch him, and has either broken
or dislocated my finger, the bspa jydge got a gob full , for jabbingmy horse in the gob, i stzyed in for the next class, horse behaved much bettr..im heading to a and e ouchies

 

[YasandCrystal]

Personally I would be looking to get to the root of his problem before taking him to shows and adding to his stress.
It sound slike he behaved in the second class inspite of anything going on with him.

 

[SusieT]

Turn him out the poor lad, only put jfor an hour a day and he's only young-probably fed up of having things done around him and needs to rest his head-not be out at shows. Don't lie against him etc. but treat him like a horse. Try him it full time with other horses and bring him in for anything you need to do. Don't mess him Round just do what training is required and turn him out again. Sounds I've he has just been overdone.

 

[Moomin1]

I would agree Suzie T, I do think it sounds like his head is about to explode with all the goings on.

Personally I would not be taking him to shows where he is going to pose a danger to himself and more importantly other people, as he has done. I would look at returning him to as natural state as possible whilst still handling daily and slowly taking things back to basics.

 

[Achinghips]

Please take this as constructive and not patronising - I don't know you or your regime - just trying to help.

Ok, taking it that you've explored pain reactions and back, teeth saddle etc ... Perhaps you just have a bad one, genetics and that etc, as others have suggested. What is your yard like, is it too frantic/busy so he doesn't feel safe?

We need to know more about your daily routine to answer fully but
to be as solution focused as poss with the info you have given:

Joinup and groudwork is a must but I'm not sure if he's too far gone by your description.
Have you done any groundwork minus a whip? ie, pushing him back if he barges, ignoring minor bad behaviour but teaching consequences with no fuss, have you tried joinup etc?

Sounds like you have a vicious circle going on with the whip and he's reacting to it. People = whip perhaps? This would be very threatening to a horse. Have you tried phasing out whip by pairing it with voice (one syllable is enough, such as "bahh" or "Err"), thus phasing whip out. If not, you may be deep in trouble.

Either way, you can't undo this in the current environment as horses learn by context and the environment is part of this.

My advice is to change his surroundings by sending him away to a handler urgently as this behaviour is now learned and reinforced by context and will be environment specific and is being strengthened every minute.

Either that or pts for your own safety, esp if you have little ones hanging around fussing and petting.

 

[Fii]

Just a thought but have you had his eyes checked? If its happens a lot from one side, maybe he has some sight loss in one eye? Just an idea!!

 

[Bradsmum]

My boy in no way showed such extreme behaviour but I found his behaviour improved by taking out any trace of molasses. I too only feed mine chaff as he is in very light work but he also gets 24/7 turnout and the change has been enormous. Allen & Page do no molasses/no barley feeds and a lot of people recommended me Fast Fibre but unfortunately this too did not seem to agree with him. I have now sourced a local no fuss chaff that suits. Best of luck I hope you get to the bottom of what's troubling him. Stay safe.

 

[millitiger]

Turn him out the poor lad, only put jfor an hour a day and he's only young-probably fed up of having things done around him and needs to rest his head-not be out at shows. Don't lie against him etc. but treat him like a horse. Try him it full time with other horses and bring him in for anything you need to do. Don't mess him Round just do what training is required and turn him out again. Sounds I've he has just been overdone.

I'd have to agree with this.

I definitely wouldn't be taking him to shows as I think, with current behaviour, you are just setting him and yourself up for failure.

I'd chuck him out until autumn, bring in and start work and if you are still having issues look into something like thermal imaging to see if there are any hot spots that your vet can investigate.

 

[Ebenezer_Scrooge]

Agreed with SusieT, turn him out 24/7 in a herd & let him have some time be a horse & chill out. I wouldn't have even contemplated taken him to a show if he was behaving like that.

 

[Ebenezer_Scrooge]

Agreed with SusieT turn him out in a herd 24/7. give him time to be a horse & chill out. I wouldn't have taken him to a show if he was behaving like that before in terms of safety to all.

 

[siennamum]

My youngster was a bit like this when he came to me. His only experiences of people hadn't been favorable so when not being gelded, microchipped and treated for ailments he was unhandled. He is still very food aggressive and I leave him alone when eating, he is v friendly and well socialised with other horses, and will back down from a fight - there is no relationship between his behaviour in a herd and him with people.

If someone or something has upset him (apart from me- thank god) he will never forget and never forgive them - including my farrier, all vets, and a drainage dith a couple of fields away.

He is now pretty transformed but it has taken 2 years.

From day one I drove him away using all means possible if he came at me (though not sure I'd be able to if he had been as serious as yours)

You don't win battles with mine, he has no concept that you might have got the upper hand or that it was pointless to argue, he just remembers the fight and doesn't forgive you. I have to break all problems down and demonstrate there is no reason to worry, and then praise wildly when you get the response you want. I have him completely addicted to praise and affection (including extra strong mints) and he gets despondent and frustrated when he hasn't done things right.

I leave him alone - My son went in to fuss him when he was laying down recently and he was happy to see him for a moment and then scowled at him - he really likes his own space & time. I make sure he is happy and relaxed, he is out as much as possible in a herd of playful boys.

I ignore the small stuff, he gets a lot more leeway than my other horses, but am zero tolerance on important things and if he were to be nasty these days he would get a severe reprimand.

I second the advice above about Paul Williamson (Endospink) he might give you advice remotely. I certainly have turned mine around, he is a joy to own these days because his issues stemmed from an active mind and he is very bright and funny now he isn't trying to eat you.

 

[AengusOg]

This horse needs to be turned away for a while. He's been in for a while and has had lots of trauma. He needs to let off steam and have some peace.

He also needs to be handled firmly and fairly, without any form of punishment.

If a horse gets to the point where he is aggressive with all his feet and his teeth, it generally means that his handling has not been done correctly, and the handler(s) have failed to deal with the earlier behavioural problems. All horses exhibit subtle signs when they are trying their luck with their handlers. If the handler misses or ignores these early signs of dissent, the horse will grow in confidence. Before long the horse will be in total control and, because subtle signs don't seem to work, will quickly go to full blown attacks on the handler.

I would want to work with such a horse in a fairly large area, preferably a round pen, with a training halter, long rope, and a stick. I'd do in-hand work and a bit of lunging. The horse would need to learn that any form of intimidation of me would not be tolerated, and that there was a good chance his last hour had come if he threatened to do me in. If, however, he had a nice attitude toward me, he would be allowed to stand quietly for short spells between short spells of work.

I would not use any negative voice aids, or punish the horse in any way. If he got agressive with me, I would become dangerous enough to eat him, using any means necessary to stop him in his tracks. When he backed down, he would be given another chance to be good. When he was good, I'd tell him so in light, encouraging tones.

Your horse needs everything in black and white, and needs to learn that if he is nice, so are you, but you are too dangerous to push around. He needs a confident handler who can read him and act accordingly, and who will set boundaries on his behaviour, without shouting, slapping, or giving way to him.

Once he knows that, you can start doing some meaningful and consistent groundwork with him, making sure he learns how to yield to pressure and move around when you ask him to, and that you will not yield to him at all. You need to read the signs he will give you, and deal calmly, assertively, and consistently with any attempts at intimidation from him.

Everything is on his terms at the moment. He allows you to lie down with him, he tolerates (or not) people around him, and everyone scatters when he changes his mind. He needs to know that you have the power to change his mind, and you allow him to do things which suit you, not him.

Treated thus, his trust in you will increase and he will start to see you as a source of confidence. Instead of wanting to get rid of you, he will want to be with you because the alternative is that you will drive him away and keep him away until his attitude changes for the better, then you will allow him to be near you.

Black and white, no polos, no 'maybe this times', no fuzzy lines, no concessions until it's sorted. You ask, he does. He's bad, you're too dangerous.
He's nice, you're nice.

 

[Kallibear]

I feel very sorry for him actually.

He's had a lot of horrible, painful things done to him in his short life, and been forced to endure it. He's spent far too much time inside without horse friends. Some horses would tolerate it, other fall to peices and become nervous wrecks, and some will fight back: he sounds like a fighting back type.

I don't fully understand your last post (lack of punctuation etc) but I also think you're negelgent for taking a horse out to shows etc when you know him to be potentially dangerous. He could easily have killed someone.

AengusOg has said exactly what I would do with him: turn him out, do minimal work with him and teach him to respect humans.

I think you could do with some outside help. We all handle horses in a slighty different way and, even though probably very competant, your way clearly doesn't suit him. If it did you wouldn't be in this situation!! It's hard to change habit so getting someone it give you a hand would be good idea.

 

[Maesfen]

Couldn't agree more than with Aengus.

 

[MagicMelon]

It sounds like he's defensive rather than nasty. He's had 2 injuries which sound like they've significantly added to his aggression, I'd say they probably hurt! It hurt him when you tried to treat the injuries and when he showed this, you smacked him with a whip. Hence, he's now learnt that people basically can cause him pain. You say you can't smack the horse, but you say you have done... which sounds like its really wound him up. As others have said, definately turn him out, poor horse sounds fed up and bored too.

I had a horse who was pretty bolshy, when I first got him he'd flatten his ears at me and threaten to boot me over his feed. He was simply very defensive, had I raised a whip to him he would have got seriously worse. I was firm with him at all times, but never did I need to smack him. Praise worked best with him, I'd almost ignore the bad behaviour and give him masses of praise for anything good he did. He thrived on that. That's what I'd try with this horse, take a step right back from him and try to encourage him to succeed - if you walk near him and he pricks his ears then tell him how good he is etc.

You said you took him to his first event... was this wise considering the serious problem you seem to be having with him at home?! You're not setting the poor horse up to succeed at all. I think its dreadful that you allowed this clearly unhappy horse to be amongst other people and their horses who sound like they were lucky not to get kicked. From your post, I think you said you yelled at the judge for jabbing your horse in the mouth so presumably she rode him - again, does this sound wise?! Personally it sounds like you need to find someone else for this horse, as others have said it sounds like your method doesnt seem to be working. Its nothing against you as such, but I think certain people suit certain horses - you two sound like you really clash!

 

[jhoward]

hi all will read and reply over next few days, as horse well
and truely broke me, im back in hospital awaitonh an op,