Horse turning nasty.

[jhoward]

To get back to the ops question about her horse. Yes to me it's pain/frustration related and being mishandled both by you and vets, cann't tell a horse sorry love I know it's going to hurt but it's for your own good, they don't think that way,you have caused him alot of pain so he no longer trust you. Taking him to a show, well you got what you asked for.
Take him right back to basics and again his trust, if this doesn't work or he gets worse do the kindess thing by him and pts.

wth?? pts? he has never been mis handled by a vet where exactley did you get that from.

the horse spooked, its a bloody horse they all do it. do u know what i actually cba to dignify u with a further responce.

 

[Luci07]

I read the entire thread with great interest. Talk about conflicting advice!! And some ...rather firm opinions! I do believe that some less than pleasant traits can be passed down to offspring, I have also seen how a youngster can start to test you and have a real attack of the Kevin's! If in doubt I think the suggestions of taking a couple of steps back might well be helpful. Vet check to ensure no physical reasons, feed right down to the basics, more turn out and then start building back up. I have known a friend who is a very good horsewoman...she bought a 3 year old, beautifully put together and lovely..till she came to back him. Soon became obvious someone had tried, failed and completely cocked it up. result, dangerous horse.

Could you also post what you do do and what are the results?

 

[Achinghips]

What's thehumpedgooseproboards on some of your signatures please? I've clicked on it but it has no information about what it is, other than a separate forum with no information about its aims, but it says to use your H&H usename

 

[asommerville]

Could someone have trird to back him before?

 

[rhino]

What's thehumpedgooseproboards on some of your signatures please? I've clicked on it but it has no information about what it is, other than a separate forum with no information about its aims

Remember the 'bar is open' threads in soapbox? It's basically that, but hosted on another forum. TFC felt that at times (!) it was inappropriate for a family forum so the HG was set up. No aims really, just a general chat thread for those of us who liked the bar threads.

 

[Littlelegs]

Is it likely at some point in the past while he was being mistreated he's truly figured out he's actually stronger than any human? I don't mean in a trying it on, pushing people round & being a bit dominant way as some do. Normally as humans we trick most horses into believing we are stronger, but the rare one does realise that no matter what any person does it has the upper hand.Which would fit in with the fact his attacks on you are getting worse, possibly same thing happened with previous groom, if I am right from his pov you should have stepped into line earlier, he's upping his game because you didn't accept it at first. I'm not sure even if that is it exactly how to solve it but just an idea as to why.

 

[JFTDWS]

This thread is a bit like tripping on some sort of hallucinogenic drug (or what I imagine it would be like ) - so many misunderstandings and half-logics flying around. FWIW, I agree with whoever said this was a case for someone who can see the horse in person - and certainly I don't consider it within my remit to offer advice given the high stakes involved when a horse behaves seemingly so dangerously.

JH, I hope your hand heals ok x

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised. I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.

I don't think he's turning nasty but do think that there's something underlying going on - whether it's pain related or something that's happened to him in the past really at this stage is anyone's guess since the vet hasn't found anything and I don't think you have enough information about his past to make an informed judgement. How did the groom who was frightened of him handle him for example? You could be picking up the pieces of some fear that this person has instilled in him.

What I think would be your best course of action would be to work at building his trust and confidence in you day by day. This may take a long, long time but the end results would be more than worth it. If/when you got there in the end I think he would be the most loyal and trustworthy of horses.

Horses are fight or flight animals, if he's boxed in he can't flight so his instincts are telling him in his panic to fight. It's up to you to create an environment for him where he doesn't feel the need to do either but feels safe in the knowledge that you are not going to let anything bad happen to him.

I'm still not clear about his turnout situation but if it's limited to an hour a day along with 5 - 10 minutes walk out I'd try to increase the turnout length of time if at all possible and preferable with other horses if he isn't already with others.

Other things I'd look at are his diet. I know what you said about his hard feed but could he possibly be missing or lacking in any essential vitamins and minerals?

If he were mine I'd be working with him daily to build his confidence in me and taking a "gently, gently" approach trying to avoid as much confrontation as possible whilst at the same time setting boundaries which he must not cross such as your space/his space.

I'm sorry to hear about your hand and hope it heals fully quickly.

 

[Dolcé]

I've just read this thread - and am impressed by how many experts there are out there.

Most of them appear to own the sort of horse which an explosion of dynamite won't upset, and are frankly abysmal riders (if their photographs/signatures are anything to go by).

Doesn't stop them pontificating about things/people/horses they know nothing about.

If you don't know what you're talking about/have no constructive - and detailed - suggestions like AengusOg then shut the duck up.

Jhoward - hope your hand is healing. I'm also called a troll frequently. Clearly I am THE most covert troll in history, with 20k posts and no infractions but there's always the odd intellectually challenged poster willing to sling a few 'troll' names about.
S

LOL, I love you Shils, you always hit the nail on the head. It would be lovely to be a perfect horseperson wouldn't it!

 

[rhino]

Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised. I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.

She really can't; she's going to be in plaster and off work for a minimum of 6 - 8 weeks, it's not a simple break and although it sounds like surgery went well (well apart from spending the day throwing up) it is not something that can be fixed quickly.

For obvious reasons JH is not terribly keen to risk someone else taking over his education at the present time, but it sounds like she can arrange grass livery with some help at hand. Fingers crossed some chillout time does the boy some good She really does think the world of him, madwoman that she is

 

[popeyesno1fan]

Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised. I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.

I don't think he's turning nasty but do think that there's something underlying going on - whether it's pain related or something that's happened to him in the past really at this stage is anyone's guess since the vet hasn't found anything and I don't think you have enough information about his past to make an informed judgement. How did the groom who was frightened of him handle him for example? You could be picking up the pieces of some fear that this person has instilled in him.

What I think would be your best course of action would be to work at building his trust and confidence in you day by day. This may take a long, long time but the end results would be more than worth it. If/when you got there in the end I think he would be the most loyal and trustworthy of horses.

Horses are fight or flight animals, if he's boxed in he can't flight so his instincts are telling him in his panic to fight. It's up to you to create an environment for him where he doesn't feel the need to do either but feels safe in the knowledge that you are not going to let anything bad happen to him.

I'm still not clear about his turnout situation but if it's limited to an hour a day along with 5 - 10 minutes walk out I'd try to increase the turnout length of time if at all possible and preferable with other horses if he isn't already with others.

Other things I'd look at are his diet. I know what you said about his hard feed but could he possibly be missing or lacking in any essential vitamins and minerals?

If he were mine I'd be working with him daily to build his confidence in me and taking a "gently, gently" approach trying to avoid as much confrontation as possible whilst at the same time setting boundaries which he must not cross such as your space/his space.

I'm sorry to hear about your hand and hope it heals fully quickly.

Totally agree, been there with a young colt a few years ago. I had to sell him on, as I just wasnt getting anywhere with him. but would totally agree with the above. Once you have the expertise, as i think you have, daily contact will eventually work. (And i sold him to a person that i knew, and he was told exactly what he was like, he actually turned him into a smashing little cob).

 

[WoopsiiD]

I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.

 

[thehorsephotographer]

I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.

We'll have to agree to differ on this one I'm afraid but I do respect your opinion however my opinion is that horses are born as a blank canvas but how they turn out in the end depends very much on what happens to them along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehorsephotographer View Post
Personally I wouldn't turn him out till spring or whatever some have advised. I'd be wanting to work with him, just for a short time everyday and keeping it short enough to keep it where possible all positive.
She really can't; she's going to be in plaster and off work for a minimum of 6 - 8 weeks, it's not a simple break and although it sounds like surgery went well (well apart from spending the day throwing up) it is not something that can be fixed quickly.

For obvious reasons JH is not terribly keen to risk someone else taking over his education at the present time, but it sounds like she can arrange grass livery with some help at hand. Fingers crossed some chillout time does the boy some good She really does think the world of him, madwoman that she is

In this case then I'd opt for the turnout but make sure I spent some quality time with him everyday just building a relationship - whether it's to give him some feed with supplements or just for the pleasure of talking to him.

A year ago my daughter took on a pony who behaved very similar to this horse when no-one else would give her a chance but had labelled her as a "bad one". We were her 5th home in under 2 years and took her on primarily to be a companion for another young horse she had bought. The day we collected her the person who then owned her tied her up in the trailer and literally ran out sideways with hindsight trying to avoid being kicked.

It took 6 - 8 months before we could actually see any real progress but now a year later she's rapidly turning into the sweetest little thing. It has been one step forward three steps backwards for much of the time but through treating her with kindness and respect whilst still teaching her what is and isn't acceptable with her manners we are getting somewhere. She's a 3 year old. There have been times with her when I've thought we would never make anything out of her but the one thought that kept us going and still going is what kind of a life would she have with anyone else if she can't be trusted and we can't make anything of her?

Reading all you have said JH I think you have already achieved more with this horse than anyone before you and for that you should be applauded. Personally I wouldn't give up on him. I think a lot of what you have said indicates that the two of you together have potential. Not least of all your belief in him.

 

[Moomin1]

I'll get the troll call now-some animals are just mean.
We had one on a yard I as at. He would go out on his back legs and come in on his back legs.
He would rush to the front of the stable with teeth barred.
He happily took chunks from everyone.
His owner said he was quirky, the rest of us knew the truth. Thank goodness he was a Jaffa so his bad seeds were never passed on.
Its no ones fault, its just life.

No, you clearly aren't a troll!! You are just mis-informed. No animal is 'just mean'. I deal with every animal you can think of daily. Foxes, badgers, slow worms, mice, rats, horses, cats, dogs, cows, pigs, snakes, spiders etc etc etc. I have been bitten more times than I can think by snakes, hamsters, dogs, cats (and feral cats), squirrels and god knows what else. I have never yet come across an animal that for no reason (and this includes health reasons too) is 'just mean'. There are all sorts of pre-cursors and environmental issues that cause different temperaments/personalities etc etc but people humanize animals so much that I have even heard people scream at cats who have been placed in carriers to 'shut up you are scaring the other cat'!!

 

[rhino]

In this case then I'd opt for the turnout but make sure I spent some quality time with him everyday just building a relationship - whether it's to give him some feed with supplements or just for the pleasure of talking to him.

I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment

 

[Sarajane]

I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment

Now I might be controversial here, but I'm going to give advice without seeing the bra, where it is kept or how it is handled. I would strongly recommend the following method:
Dont put arms through the straps, put bra around ribcage with fastenings to the front and keep it in position by holding it in place with the non functioning arm
do the fastening up, twist round so fastenings are at the back
slip arms through straps
be sure to offer praise before covering bra with suitable clothing

 

[Armas]

Now I might be controversial here, but I'm going to give advice without seeing the bra, where it is kept or how it is handled. I would strongly recommend the following method:
Dont put arms through the straps, put bra around ribcage with fastenings to the front and keep it in position by holding it in place with the non functioning arm
do the fastening up, twist round so fastenings are at the back
slip arms through straps
be sure to offer praise before covering bra with suitable clothing

I feel I have a much better solution find a hot guy to help dress and undress you

 

[Flummoxed]

I feel I have a much better solution find a hot guy to help dress and undress you

From what I've seen on HHO, she's been trying to find a hot guy for some while!


Hope the hand is better soon JH and that you manage to resolve the horse's issues.

 

[Spudlet]

I'm sure she will. Just as soon as she works out how to do her bra up and dress herself one handed, as apparently she is finding it rather difficult at the moment

Have a sixties hippy moment and let things hang free and easy!

 

[jhoward]

general reply to all i hope i cover the questions

yes, theres a high chance somebody tried to break him in, i was told hed been lent across ..

his reaction with other people is to walk over them, he was like it with me at first, but knowing he had issues with being led this was the first thing worked on, i always used a dually and lunge rein, when u got him into a field he was ready for a bit/bridle to be ripped off him and woyld go ape, we got over this by unclipping him him, once he settled down id go and remove the headcollar, a few weeks later that issue was over.

one thing i learnt early on was u cant jab him.. his first reaction is to go up, the lady that came out to work with him, her comments were this is a horse that knows how to rear.

tbh its rare these days he goes up, a small bunny hop but he knows its not accectable.

we have long reind, learnt to jump, hes been led off other horses and goes out in hand/on the long reins. backing wise its all been done slowly..
i really debated about who would get on him due to his trust issues, but in the end the actual sitting on happened in the stable, horse was perfect so imo i got that part right.
we were about to do the sitting on outside when somebody appeared to use the school and i said no, as i wanted his total attention on us.. he then injured himself ..

ive spent a year with him, getting him used to things like the hose.. it was another big no no, but he can now be washed.

i agree with the person who said about working him, he is a much more chilled horse when hes doing something, even if its 5 mins up the road, he loves going out.. hes very bold ears forward and loves it. for a baby hes perfect with traffic etc... but then i put the work in so he should be.

as rhino said, i buggered possibly for months .. i couldnt even put a headcollar on currently so my options are some what limited.


thanks for advice re bra... sports bra all the way

 

[Spudlet]

deleted

 

[thehorsephotographer]

Sounds like you've achieved a massive amount with him during the time you've been working with him.

As mentioned previously even if you can't actually do anything with him due to your injury I'd still be spending quality time with him each day maintaining the relationship you have already built.

Is there anyone else who you would trust who can help you handle him at the moment under your supervision who you think he would also trust? These 5 minutes down the road (which actually translate to a lot more than 5 minutes being spent with him don't they?) could be a lifeline to him at the moment and the difference between a stroppy bored horse and one with something to look forward to.

It will be interesting to see if he treats you any differently now you are injured.

 

[jhoward]

yes hes being looked after by a friend.. hes kept on her farm, tbh ihave no worries about leading him out. and yes it is more time spent with him, bring in.. well ok cheat there i call him he comes i open gates he puts himself in, good groom, feet etc bridle on, off we go. weve done this even in the rain whilst hes been stuck in, things like road spray etc dont bother him.

not much else i can do tbh and friend doesnt have the time to be consistant.

i feel its a bit of all or nothing....

he will be intrigued by the odd thing on my arm... barring that and the strops he is normally a very soft loving horse.

 

[AengusOg]

I'm trying to be objective here...

well ok cheat there i call him he comes i open gates he puts himself in.

That may be contributing to his behaviour. I understand that your injury will mean that letting him run in loose will have to be the norm, for a while at least, but inconsistencies in routine can cause young horses to challenge their handler.

he will be intrigued by the odd thing on my arm....

You seem to have already made up your mind about that. He may be intrigued; he may be wary or even afraid of it; he may try to bite it; he may want to lick it; he may understand that you are hurt and vulnerable, or he may not...

Your horse will be communicating with you all the time you are together. You can't tell his story for him. I think this may be part of the problems you are having. You may be wise to take a good look at your horse and start listening to what he is telling you. His behaviour is a symptom of his management.

 

[Ladyinred]

I'm trying to be objective here...



That may be contributing to his behaviour. I understand that your injury will mean that letting him run in loose will have to be the norm, for a while at least, but inconsistencies in routine can cause young horses to challenge their handler.




You seem to have already made up your mind about that. He may be intrigued; he may be wary or even afraid of it; he may try to bite it; he may want to lick it; he may understand that you are hurt and vulnerable, or he may not...

Your horse will be communicating with you all the time you are together. You can't tell his story for him. I think this may be part of the problems you are having. You may be wise to take a good look at your horse and start listening to what he is telling you. His behaviour is a symptom of his management.

I like you AengusOg! You think like we do.

 

[pip6]

As you are out of action why not send him to Matthew Hall (Sticklepath, about 30 mins from Exeter) for a while. Wonderful sensitive rider.

 

[jhoward]

i do understand about letting him in and out, but its short term i dont want him going to be turned away just yet as fields are miles away and im not up to doing gates etc, so whilst others are caring for him its got to be tough tities on that one.

on another note hes always come when ive called him... the vet said it was like something out of black beauty.. i call horse neighs thens come cantering up.

pip, im not sending him anywhere just yet and i dont think theres any point in him being sent away broken, then coming back to me when i still cant ride for months to come.. intotal i could be looking at as much as 5-6 months out of action.
will no more on that on friday.

a... ive spent a lot of time with this horse, and have exposed him to many new people and situations, i do generally know how he will react.. will be seeing him friday so shall report back... if ive not seen him for a few days his normal reaction is to ignore me. he is a very vocal horse to me, the first time i went away for a few days he didnt speak to me for 2 days.. i called him, he looked and actually turned away from me.

 

[Daytona]

We had a gelding who was cut late who could be the sweetest horse but by god when he turned its was really bad, he once went for my face full force mouth wide open I managed to back away and he hit my chest near breaking my collar bone then turned and tried to double barrel me inthe face I lucky managed to scramble out the way and all because I had shouted at him and gave him a smack for being rude. It was very scary , yet 90% of time he was very nice. But saying that he could be difficult to handle and also in field was a bulky to other horses ( think it was due to being cut late) ended up finding him with a compound fracture to the top of his front leg was really quite traumatic and vet managed to get there just as he went into shock and fell over to put him to sleep. We were shocked he ended up kicked do bad as he really was not nice to other horses in the field etc. don't think I'd buy a cut late gelding due to our experience with him, it's really put me off.

 

[Daytona]

Dam iPhone - bully not bulky and we weren't shocked he ended up kicked

 

[FfionWinnie]

I had a horse that was an SSPCA cruelty case. One of the worst they ever had.

Anyway when I got her if I touched her other than her head she turned into a kicking biting monster. I used to brush her with a fleecy mit