'Horse whisperers' - are they ethical?

[sbloom]

Maybe I should saddle fit for free as it's for the well being of the horse...

 

[littleshetland]

You obviously want to believe, so little anyone says is going to convince you otherwise. Have a little read about cold reading and how "psychics" operate, if you're curious.

Really I would be quite happy to arrive at a logical and rational explanation.
I know it sounds highly improbable and makes no sense to you at all… to me neither, but I was there … and you weren’t and I know how the conversation went.
I’m curious about a lot of things and I’m sure there are legions of people out there able to convince any number of people of spurious notions and ridiculous ideas. It’s not difficult to convince people of anything if they want to believe. But I was there, and I know what was said.
The woman who I spoke too had nothing to be gained by talking to me and I have nothing to gain by relaying this incident. Make of it what you will.

 

[paddy555]

I do think if there was even the slightest bit of integrity in these people they would do it free of charge for the welfare of the animal. I also believe that there is an element of telepathy in people especially if you are very close to them my oh and I have often spoken the same words at the exact same time. While I doubt some random person would be that tuned into telepathy it is possible but why would we assume horses speak English

I think FOC is great. Nurses and doctors work for the welfare of the human. It will certainly help the government's finances if they work for free and we stop paying them.

No one is forced to ask any AC, medium or anyone else to work for them. Totally their choice.
Of course horses speak English. Do you really think they speak German/Spanish or any other language? Why do you think they "speak" any language at all. Are you not able to tune into a horse without speech?

 

[Time for Tea]

But was littleshetland a target? Are there collections of pleasantly spoken psychics attending funerals and touting for business?
What would she gain?

 

[Gloi]

But was littleshetland a target? Are there collections of pleasantly spoken psychics attending funerals and touting for business?
What would she gain?

Yes there are. They may not tout at the time but use them , plus local papers and internet, to collect information for future use.
Eg. They may have met someone who mentioned you wearing your mother's coat at the funeral and stored up that info for when they met you.

 

[blitznbobs]

Please read my post (no. 54) further back up this thread and give me your thoughts… I know it’s purely anecdotal, but it actually happened.. to me!
Perhaps science has not sufficiently evolved enough yet for things of a supernatural nature to be empirically proven, but perhaps one day they will. I’m no scientist, but as I understand it, quantum brings us a little closer. Also good to remember that while Isaac Newton was writing his Principia, he was practicing Alchemy. He may not have succeeded but a good job he was open to all possibilities.

I have been to events where people who have been cold read. They are convinced they gave nothing away then the video of their body language is played back to them and you can literally see them nodding and shaking their heads - its that obvious - the fact you were recently bereaved makes you more emotionally receptive - but if it made you feel better then that is great.

 

[paddy555]

I do think there will be things that currently look like hocus pocus to anyone focused on evidence based research that, in 100 years time, will be explained with science. I have no idea which parts of the more "fluffy" world those will be of course! I try to be open minded but equally of course aware of rip off merchants. I get my eyes opened and my mind changed about stuff regularly.

This is a para from an article in Country Life a couple of years ago and is about dowsing. Something that we know works but doesn't have a great deal of explanation as to why or how.



However, not all scientists dismiss this ancient art. Nicholas Gray, a leading expert in water technology based at Trinity College Dublin, first became aware of dowsing as a child growing up in Gloucestershire, where he saw local water diviners at work and taught himself how to do the same.

‘I strongly suspect there is a rational explanation to do with energy fields caused by water movement,’ he says. ‘For me, divining only reliably works on water pipes and electricity cables, and it is something most people can do.

I can't explain how Julie Dicker or any other reputable AC worked but I suspect it is in some way similar to dowsing. Tuning into an inbuilt sense that is in many people but is far more prominent in some and continually working with that. Julie dowsed horses and I know that produces results as I have as well. We know it works with both water, pipes and some other things. This is easy enough to prove.
He may be right and it is to do with energy. The energy created with the rod is considerable.

 

[littleshetland]

I have been to events where people who have been cold read. They are convinced they gave nothing away then the video of their body language is played back to them and you can literally see them nodding and shaking their heads - its that obvious

She must have been one hell of a 'cold' reader if she could work out from a conversation about a recipe for banana bread and great bands we'd seen at Wembley stadium that my mum had died and she really loved her mink coat....Lol!

 

[Time for Tea]

There was a psychic in the 1970’s, Uri Geller. The spoon bender! He did describe himself as an entertainer I think. Apparently he also did work for security forces including the CIA. Seem to remember a tv programme about him, he was or is remarkable. I do not think he had anything to do with horse/animal communication though

 

[ycbm]

There was a psychic in the 1970’s, Uri Geller. The spoon bender! He did describe himself as an entertainer I think. Apparently he also did work for security forces including the CIA. Seem to remember a tv programme about him, he was or is remarkable. I do not think he had anything to do with horse/animal communication though

He is a complete charlatan and can't reproduce any of his spoon bending under controlled conditions though many other magicians can also do what he does on stage or in front of a camera.

The Truth About Uri Geller - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

 

[littleshetland]

I have been to events where people who have been cold read. They are convinced they gave nothing away then the video of their body language is played back to them and you can literally see them nodding and shaking their heads - its that obvious - the fact you were recently bereaved makes you more emotionally receptive - but if it made you feel better then that is great.

I wasn't at a psychic event. I wasn't particularly grieving at the time - mum had passed nearly a year before. I was at the opening of an art exhibition having a rather lovely time.

 

[ester]

on the subject of dowsing this came up the other day. There were comments that there was quite a lot of underground water there anyway

 

[paddy555]

on the subject of dowsing this came up the other day. There were comments that there was quite a lot of underground water there anyway

that is true however if you were looking for say a pipe then there are not quite a lot of underground pipes I think most people learn and practise on something like a pipe as it is more definite or at least that was how I was taught.

I hadn't seen that video before. Very interesting to see such strong reactions and such energy. Thanks for posting it.

 

[paddy555]

View attachment 117789

not sure why acupuncture, chiropractic and dowsing are included.

 

[windand rain]

Doctors, nurses vets etc are highly trained have been educated to a high standard the only qualification an animal communicator has is picking out the gullible. As it happens every single quack or crank idea without qualification I have come across has either been free or classed as entertainers with ticket prices. It's obscene to exploit people's vulnerability in order to line their pockets without giving a paying audience their entertainment.

 

[marmalade76]

I am a very good cold reader and there are people who are convinced that I am ‘psychic’ even after I have told them that I am not, and explained to them how it’s done.

Some people just really want to believe in magic

Speaking of which, how's your possible ghost situation?

 

[Birker2020]

I do think if there was even the slightest bit of integrity in these people they would do it free of charge for the welfare of the animal. I also believe that there is an element of telepathy in people especially if you are very close to them my oh and I have often spoken the same words at the exact same time. While I doubt some random person would be that tuned into telepathy it is possible but why would we assume horses speak English

Why should they? They are earning a living. You could say the same about physio's, dentists, vets, farriers. Its all for the welfare of the animal.

 

[Birker2020]

Doctors, nurses vets etc are highly trained have been educated to a high standard the only qualification an animal communicator has is picking out the gullible.

So the very fact that she told me my horse had a large slab fracture of her upper back tooth was just a coincidence then? Of course it must have been a lucky guess, as all the other things she told me about were. Like the other horse wearing her headcollar, the supplement that was stopped, the nuts that were stopped, the colic that she knew she suffered from. And tens of other things over four readings. Shucks - how gullible am I?

I understand people are entitled to their opinions but they should just try it first without being judgemental. But then I have a friend who believes her horse is being treated by an unqualified person who runs their hands in an airover the top of her horses rugs and tell her she is easing his aches and pains. She's as probably cynical of my horse communicator as I am about her 'physio'. But I respect her as she respects me and my beliefs.

 

[Birker2020]

Maybe I should saddle fit for free as it's for the well being of the horse...

Ooh yes please, I will remember you when I get my next one

 

[ycbm]

not sure why acupuncture, chiropractic and dowsing are included.

Acupuncture because it works only as a placebo, though placebos can be mighty powerful. It has been investigated with proper blind trials.

Dowsing because the dowsers are actually reading geological features and/or are operating in areas which are riddled with water sources. Again, it can't be replicated in a controlled environment where the water could be turned on and off to test the dowser.

I don't know much about chiropractic. It does seem to have started off from dodgy roots but has "grown up" more recently and been shown to be effective with sub-acute lower back pain.
.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Don't get me started on spooky happenings in hospitals it would derail the thread...

Would love to hear more, how about starting a separate thread.

 

[equinerebel]

Doctors, nurses vets etc are highly trained have been educated to a high standard the only qualification an animal communicator has is picking out the gullible. As it happens every single quack or crank idea without qualification I have come across has either been free or classed as entertainers with ticket prices. It's obscene to exploit people's vulnerability in order to line their pockets without giving a paying audience their entertainment.

So the requirement to being paid for your services is having a degree or similar?

Again, not all are exploiting the vulnerable and if someone is happy to pay for their services, who are we to judge them?

 

[paddy555]

Acupuncture because it works only as a placebo, though placebos can be mighty powerful. It has been investigated with proper blind trials.

Dowsing because the dowsers are actually reading geological features and/or are operating in areas which are riddled with water sources. Again, it can't be replicated in a controlled environment where the water could be turned on and off to test the dowser.

I don't know much about chiropractic. It does seem to have started off from dodgy roots but has "grown up" more recently and been shown to be effective with sub-acute lower back pain.
.

I disagree about acupuncture because I have seen it be effective. That was on a horse so it wasn't saying it worked, as a human may do, because it was paying the bill.That was not administered by a quack but a qualified vet with the appropriate training.

dowsing, that may be the case with water however it doesn't work with pipes or cables.
It is not a case that there is water or reading features, that for the most part is pretty obvious. It is a case of finding the most water. As an example I doused our land very extensively for water when we bought it. I was looking for water, we had plenty of springs I was looking for the best water/spring so that we had an alternate supply if we needed it. (very poor spring supply)

as a matter of interest have you tried dousing? I have shown several people. The ones who fail have a very definite mindset. My dad was one of them. Totally closed mind to it and to his intense frustration nothing happened and he concluded it was total rubbish. Mum tried and started to get results. That didn't go down too well.
The people who I have found who seem to do best are the ones with most skill and affinity with horses. Not the best riders or trainers but those with the underlying ability to listen to and almost "feel" the horse. Those with a natural affinity with horses, often not the best riders.

You seem to be a very definite person ie it has to be proved by science before you accept it. For example stabling of horses and wanting trials before you can accept things which has been discussed before here. A lot of things come into life which cannot be proven by trials. For me it is whether they are effective that matters.

As for chiro then it is hardly new. I had treatment nearly 50 years ago. My horses first had treatment well over 20 years ago. The problem with it is, that like other areas, there are good and bad. Many mediocre people who have done the training, got the certificate but plod along with little ability and it seems to be of little use. Then you meet a good one who has natural ability to see things and you realise the effectiveness of it.
No different to anything else, I have been to many qualified doctors and other conventional medical staff over the years and exactly the same. Very similar to physios.

many of these things work best on animals because you can manipulate people's minds (such as mediums etc) into believing what they want to believe but not so easy with animals.

 

[Widgeon]

As for people who can talk to horses, I think some are experienced horse people picking up on various physical cues without even realising. From the horse's stance, pain in the leg shoulder back etc. Horse displaying subtle signs of stress or not.

We have a guy around here who I suspect works that way. He's a very experienced horseman and gets good results with the rehab horses he has into his yard, and he also does this "animal communication" thing. I'm deeply sceptical of that in general but people really rate him - I've always felt that he's probably unconsciously picking up on very subtle cues that other people just aren't seeing, or feeling. That's my theory anyway!

 

[ycbm]

I disagree about acupuncture because I have seen it be effective. That was on a horse so it wasn't saying it worked, as a human may do, because it was paying the bill.That was not administered by a quack but a qualified vet with the appropriate training.

dowsing, that may be the case with water however it doesn't work with pipes or cables.
It is not a case that there is water or reading features, that for the most part is pretty obvious. It is a case of finding the most water. As an example I doused our land very extensively for water when we bought it. I was looking for water, we had plenty of springs I was looking for the best water/spring so that we had an alternate supply if we needed it. (very poor spring supply)

as a matter of interest have you tried dousing? I have shown several people. The ones who fail have a very definite mindset. My dad was one of them. Totally closed mind to it and to his intense frustration nothing happened and he concluded it was total rubbish. Mum tried and started to get results. That didn't go down too well.
The people who I have found who seem to do best are the ones with most skill and affinity with horses. Not the best riders or trainers but those with the underlying ability to listen to and almost "feel" the horse. Those with a natural affinity with horses, often not the best riders.

You seem to be a very definite person ie it has to be proved by science before you accept it. For example stabling of horses and wanting trials before you can accept things which has been discussed before here. A lot of things come into life which cannot be proven by trials. For me it is whether they are effective that matters.

As for chiro then it is hardly new. I had treatment nearly 50 years ago. My horses first had treatment well over 20 years ago. The problem with it is, that like other areas, there are good and bad. Many mediocre people who have done the training, got the certificate but plod along with little ability and it seems to be of little use. Then you meet a good one who has natural ability to see things and you realise the effectiveness of it.
No different to anything else, I have been to many qualified doctors and other conventional medical staff over the years and exactly the same. Very similar to physios.

many of these things work best on animals because you can manipulate people's minds (such as mediums etc) into believing what they want to believe but not so easy with animals.

I can dowse, Paddy. Some people are more attuned to their environment than others.
.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Doctors, nurses vets etc are highly trained have been educated to a high standard the only qualification an animal communicator has is picking out the gullible. As it happens every single quack or crank idea without qualification I have come across has either been free or classed as entertainers with ticket prices. It's obscene to exploit people's vulnerability in order to line their pockets without giving a paying audience their entertainment.

Right. Because absolutely no-one has been exploited by a trained professional or para-professional before. Gotcha.

Silly me, I must have made up the threads I thought I read about vet's under investigation for dodgy going on's or saddle fitters declaring the current saddle doesn't fit and they just happen to have the perfect saddle in the back of the van for a few thousand quid over the years only for it to turn out to not fit.

Or is that OK because to exploit less knowledgeable horse owners because they have a certificate for their skills?

 

[eahotson]

Acupuncture because it works only as a placebo, though placebos can be mighty powerful. It has been investigated with proper blind trials.

Dowsing because the dowsers are actually reading geological features and/or are operating in areas which are riddled with water sources. Again, it can't be replicated in a controlled environment where the water could be turned on and off to test the dowser.

I don't know much about chiropractic. It does seem to have started off from dodgy roots but has "grown up" more recently and been shown to be effective with sub-acute lower back pain.
.

I first went to a chiropracter a few years ago when I had a very bad back and no help from the NHS was forthcoming.My husband was a GP and he was horrified at the idea.Thought it was akin to witch craft.Came with me and was very impressed.I go regularly now.Age related and also was a nurse who did a lot of inappropriate lifting.Things have changed since then.

 

[hairycob]

Much as I am extremely sceptical odd things can happen that are very hard to explain. A friend got a communicator out to her horse and admitted the session was a load of generalistic guff and laughed about what a mug she had been. A few months later she got a call from the communicator, (about 100 miles away) who told her to get to the yard quickly as her horse was in severe pain. She hesitated thinking she couldn't possibly know then a couple of minutes later her YO called. She'd just arrived to find the horse colicking badly. One hell of a coincidence.

 

[eahotson]

Could some of this not be telepathy.? Before we got the power of speech we would have communicated like most animals, via body language and telepathy.Some people can probably still tap into these skills.In telepathy images and feelings rather than words would have been the language used.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I've got strong feelings about professional psycics of all kinds, whether they're tarot readers, mediums, or animal communicators. If the gift was real they would tell their visions for free. I don't believe that it can be turned on like a tap. So how can the 'visions' or 'messages' suddenly appear when money is involved? I am open minded about ghosts and psychic stuff etc but sadly there are many charlatans and cold readers out there who will manipulate vulnerable and gullible people for cash.
Edited to add it's dreadful when bereaved people are taken advantage of but it's unforgivable if 'psychic messages' are used to determine an animal's treatment.

My aunt and great aunt very much see people and hear things that aren't there 'for free'. Some they share, most they keep private so they don't scare us.

They've told us what is in the loft of the house we have just bought that they have never been in before, on holiday one took us to a graveyard and told us who they are looking for and when they died (having never been out of Kent before) as they appeared to them in the holiday cottage the night previous, sometimes they tell us what is about to slam/move in the old house my cousin lives in with 100% accuracy. My great aunt once admonished my niece for having done a Ouija board with her friends at a sleepover as there was a really nasty 'something' hanging over her, having not seen or spoken to her all day but singled her out at a family party. That is just the tip of the iceberg, but I know with 100% certainty that these abilities are real - I have seen too many things that are totally inexplicable.

Animal communicating on the other hand.... not convinced.