'Horse whisperers' - are they ethical?

[paddy555]

My aunt and great aunt very much see people and hear things that aren't there 'for free'. Some they share, most they keep private so they don't scare us.

They've told us what is in the loft of the house we have just bought that they have never been in before, on holiday one took us to a graveyard and told us who they are looking for and when they died (having never been out of Kent before) as they appeared to them in the holiday cottage the night previous, sometimes they tell us what is about to slam/move in the old house my cousin lives in with 100% accuracy. My great aunt once admonished my niece for having done a Ouija board with her friends at a sleepover, having not seen or spoken to her all day but singled her out at a family party. That is just the tip of the iceberg, but I know with 100% certainty that these abilities are real - I have seen too many things that are totally inexplicable.

Animal communicating on the other hand.... not convinced.

para 2 and para 3 don't add up to me. I don't question anyone's abilities just because they are not scientifically proven. They may be 100% real and there were some things that Julie Dicker told me that she simply couldn't have known but did.
However if you believe para 2 is correct,, and I'm sure that it is why para 3. Humans can lie and manipulate. I'm not saying in any way anyone in para 2 has but animals can't.

 

[Pippity]

not sure why acupuncture, chiropractic and dowsing are included.

Chiropractic is included because it's bollocks. There's no scientific evidence that it works for anything except, possibly, back pain. There isn't even any evidence that it's safe. The bloke who invented it did so after receiving 'advice' during a seance.

 

[paddy555]

I first went to a chiropracter a few years ago when I had a very bad back and no help from the NHS was forthcoming.My husband was a GP and he was horrified at the idea.Thought it was akin to witch craft.Came with me and was very impressed.I go regularly now.Age related and also was a nurse who did a lot of inappropriate lifting.Things have changed since then.

very similar to me (except the OH bit). When you get results from something it is hard to understand why it is on the nonsense chart on the previous page.

 

[paddy555]

I can dowse, Paddy. Some people are more attuned to their environment than others.
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absolutely, so why do you think it should be on the nonsense diagram.

 

[nagblagger]

Would love to hear more, how about starting a separate thread.

Haha I would be eaten alive by the sceptics on here.
Weird and unexplained things do happen, that's why I am 'open minded'.

 

[DabDab]

Chiropractic is included because it's bollocks. There's no scientific evidence that it works for anything except, possibly, back pain. There isn't even any evidence that it's safe. The bloke who invented it did so after receiving 'advice' during a seance.

Is it though? It has professional qualifications, regulation, and scientific studies showing its usefulness in alleviating certain disorders. And it's hardly like general medicine doesn't have some shady roots going on in its past...leaches and electrocution anyone?

 

[eahotson]

Someone mentioned alchemy.Yes of course we know now that that was often incorrect BUT as someone else said, it was the beginning of proper scientific research and was done in the teeth of opposition by the church.These were brave people.If you suggested then that the earth MIGHT be round as opposed to flat you could have found yourself tied to a stake.In a couple of hundred years time people will look at what we thought was correct and quite possibly laugh.Knowledge evolves.

 

[nagblagger]

We still use leeches and electrocution for certain conditions.

 

[Peglo]

Haha I would be eaten alive by the sceptics on here.
Weird and unexplained things do happen, that's why I am 'open minded'.

I’m definitely not gullible but I’m open minded. I think life would be more fun if ghouls walked about and moved things and folk could communicate with animals.
I’ve only had one weird experience but I like hearing other peoples like @AShetlandBitMeOnce relatives.

 

[ester]

I’ve always got the impression that chiropractic over here is different to what it is touted to be in the US and that’s where a lot of the pushback comes from.

Given that I can go in not being able to turn my head to the right, and being able to move it freely 10 mins later I’ll keep going . Fwiw my 2 recent Physios do a lot of the same manipulations as the Chiro and the same dry needling acupuncture.

Both of them work better than the NHS’s best options- where having things injected and denerved made no discernible difference.

I generally say it’s easy to dismiss stuff until you’re a chronic pain patient and even just a small amount of relief means a lot.

 

[eahotson]

I’ve always got the impression that chiropractic over here is different to what it is touted to be in the US and that’s where a lot of the pushback comes from.

Given that I can go in not being able to turn my head to the right, and being able to move it freely 10 mins later I’ll keep going . Fwiw my 2 recent Physios do a lot of the same manipulations as the Chiro and the same dry needling acupuncture.

Both of them work better than the NHS’s best options- where having things injected and denerved made no discernible difference.

I generally say it’s easy to dismiss stuff until you’re a chronic pain patient and even just a small amount of relief means a lot.

Like a lot.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I first came across McTimoney chiropractic back in the 70's and that was Ronnie Longford. A friend's pony had started refusing so they took it to Ronnie, he sorted it. I used him myself for a couple of horses and he was excellent. A lot of people used him back then. Fast forward to the 2000's and now in the dog world and I found to my amazement that he was still going and very highly rated by dog people. I took my two to him, he worked on one but having checked the other said he didn't need treatment and didn't charge me for him. He also treated people and had one lady who rated him so highly that having moved to Devon still came back to him for treatment. Since then I have been to several McTimoney chiropractors, some better than others. The best was absolutely brilliant, still miss him as he became a friend as well but sadly died after a heart operation. He was then about 72 and still working.
It definitely works but like any treatment is only as good as the individual practitioner and what suits one person might not suit another.
This is Ronnie's obituary. https://mctimoneyanimal.co.uk/about-mctimoney/a-tribute-to-ronnie-longford/

 

[DabDab]

We still use leeches and electrocution for certain conditions.

Yes...that's my point...

Lots of things can be said to come from a weird place, with sometimes weird motivations, and then down the line an element of it is found to be scientifically provable. The whole practice of medicine is predicated on people with random ideas messing. Start with an hypothesis and then see if it works out. That's basically what scientific innovation is

 

[Time for Tea]

He is a complete charlatan and can't reproduce any of his spoon bending under controlled conditions though many other magicians can also do what he does on stage or in front of a camera.

The Truth About Uri Geller - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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That is a very long report. I must say I did not realise he had once claimed to have arrived here on a spaceship from somewhere extra terrestrial! Entertaining yes possibly, anything else er, no

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

para 2 and para 3 don't add up to me. I don't question anyone's abilities just because they are not scientifically proven. They may be 100% real and there were some things that Julie Dicker told me that she simply couldn't have known but did.
However if you believe para 2 is correct,, and I'm sure that it is why para 3. Humans can lie and manipulate. I'm not saying in any way anyone in para 2 has but animals can't.

I don't disbelieve, nor am I saying your experience is false, I am just not convinced as I haven't seen it with my own eyes. I am completely open however, to your experience.

 

[scats]

That is a very long report. I must say I did not realise he had once claimed to have arrived here on a spaceship from somewhere extra terrestrial! Entertaining yes possibly, anything else er, no

Didn’t Uri Gellar claim he got hit by some sort of weird light source when he was a child? I’m sure I read that somewhere.
Whenever I see a bent spoon, I can’t help but make a Uri Gellar reference!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I’m definitely not gullible but I’m open minded. I think life would be more fun if ghouls walked about and moved things and folk could communicate with animals.
I’ve only had one weird experience but I like hearing other peoples like @AShetlandBitMeOnce relatives.

I definitely think it takes a personal experience for some people to believe, and that's okay. My dad was always science based 'it's all nonsense' to the point that him and his work mate made a deal that if either of them died that they would appear to the other one to put it all to bed almost as a mickey take agreement. He was an air con engineer working alone mostly, travelling the UK with his one mate who was also qualified on these now-becoming-obsolete units. Mate appeared on a job in the back end of nowhere and said he had been sent out to check all ok on his way through to another job. They had a general chit chat for a couple mins 'how's the wife' sort of thing, and mate walked off to get back in the car out of sight and leave. Dad got back to head office 11 hours later to be told that his mate had died early that morning of a sudden, huge heart attack - they had tried to call but no signal.. ever since then he's a firm believer.

Conversely, my grandad who was a very religious man, got back from war and renounced all religion based on the atrocities he had seen and wouldn't entertain conversation on the subject from that day till the day he died. Personal experiences are about the only thing that can sway even the most devout of beliefs.

 

[blitznbobs]

Acupuncture because it works only as a placebo, though placebos can be mighty powerful. It has been investigated with proper blind trials.

Dowsing because the dowsers are actually reading geological features and/or are operating in areas which are riddled with water sources. Again, it can't be replicated in a controlled environment where the water could be turned on and off to test the dowser.

I don't know much about chiropractic. It does seem to have started off from dodgy roots but has "grown up" more recently and been shown to be effective with sub-acute lower back pain.
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Actually there is good medicl evidence that axupuncture works better than placebo for pain management . It works by Acetyl choline release which depleted the muscle cells of their ability to contract thus producing relaxation. Its a temporary effect but can have some beneficial effects

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I think the worst are the ones offering 'distance' or 'online' readings/animal whispering etc. Absolute scumbags preying on peoples vulnerability.

I have had a distance reading done for my horse....though she only charged £10 and that was five years ago now. I think she is now £15.

Just had a picture and his name (i gave his nickname), nothing else. My social media is completely locked down and what was going on only a few people knew. It wasnt over vet advice but i felt i was missing something myself. So got me on the right track.

 

[Cortez]

I urge anyone with curiosity about unexplained stuff to research cold readers and their techniques. Quite a while ago I got to know a lady who was a well-known "psychic" here in Ireland, she was also a rider and I used to teach her; we got quite friendly. She made a bit of money from her "readings", and was a vey good judge of character, or should I say was adept at identifying the gullible. She also had other people out there reporting back. People who think "how could anyone possibly have known that, we've only just met!" please remember that there are other people who know you and your circumstances, possibly way more than you may think, and they may be happy to be engaged in conversation about you. Especially when it's to do with horses, and you are on a livery yard. Even without social media there are many ways of finding out things about all of us.

 

[Peglo]

I urge anyone with curiosity about unexplained stuff to research cold readers and their techniques. Quite a while ago I got to know a lady who was a well-known "psychic" here in Ireland, she was also a rider and I used to teach her; we got quite friendly. She made a bit of money from her "readings", and was a vey good judge of character, or should I say was adept at identifying the gullible. She also had other people out there reporting back. People who think "how could anyone possibly have known that, we've only just met!" please remember that there are other people who know you and your circumstances, possibly way more than you may think, and they may be happy to be engaged in conversation about you. Especially when it's to do with horses, and you are on a livery yard. Even without social media there are many ways of finding out things about all of us.

I wouldn’t get a psychic reading on myself for the very reason that I’m completely useless at a poker face and I can’t stop my face from saying exactly what I’m thinking. but I will give cold reading a look as I’ll find it interesting reading.

 

[Clodagh]

I’m surprised about acupuncture being regarded as guff. My older dog has it and if she understands the concept of placebo I’m impressed! She is much more relaxed and more free moving after it and it is noticeable when she needs to go again.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Seen a few over the years on various yards I've been on and some of the things they say are ridiculous.

One girl got told her horse wanted to be dolphin.

Another was that the horse wanted apple pie for dinner

I mean ffs really.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I remember one that looked like some mad witch and hung crystals over the horse whilst humming and spouting rubbish £60 for that bargain I say

 

[ycbm]

Actually there is good medicl evidence that axupuncture works better than placebo for pain management . It works by Acetyl choline release which depleted the muscle cells of their ability to contract thus producing relaxation. Its a temporary effect but can have some beneficial effects

Glad to read that. The last bit of research I read about had a blind trial where the operators did not know whether or not there were needles inside the sheaths and the same result was obtained from the control group. I did look again before I posted but I still couldn't find any evidence that acupuncture was much more than a placebo. I know a lot of people swear by it including one of my favourite doctors, though he also told me there was no evidence for it while laughing about how well it worked for him.
.

 

[Time for Tea]

Seen a few over the years on various yards I've been on and some of the things they say are ridiculous.

One girl got told her horse wanted to be dolphin.

Another was that the horse wanted apple pie for dinner

I mean ffs really.

Love it!

 

[marmalade76]

r

I urge anyone with curiosity about unexplained stuff to research cold readers and their techniques. Quite a while ago I got to know a lady who was a well-known "psychic" here in Ireland, she was also a rider and I used to teach her; we got quite friendly. She made a bit of money from her "readings", and was a vey good judge of character, or should I say was adept at identifying the gullible. She also had other people out there reporting back. People who think "how could anyone possibly have known that, we've only just met!" please remember that there are other people who know you and your circumstances, possibly way more than you may think, and they may be happy to be engaged in conversation about you. Especially when it's to do with horses, and you are on a livery yard. Even without social media there are many ways of finding out things about all of us.

TBH if I were to use an AC/see a psychic/have a tarot reading it would be for a bit of fun and nothing more.

 

[SEL]

I’m surprised about acupuncture being regarded as guff. My older dog has it and if she understands the concept of placebo I’m impressed! She is much more relaxed and more free moving after it and it is noticeable when she needs to go again.

My neurotic mare fell asleep during her acupuncture session even when the yard starting feeding all the other horses! Moved much better for a few weeks too.

 

[scats]

I occasionally have acupuncture needles when I go to the chiro. I really dislike the sensation and sometimes it must go into a nerve ending or something as it’s so painful. I remember one occasion I felt really sick and dizzy from it. So it definitely does have some impact on the body, though I’m not quite sure what!

 

[Palindrome]

I’m surprised about acupuncture being regarded as guff. My older dog has it and if she understands the concept of placebo I’m impressed! She is much more relaxed and more free moving after it and it is noticeable when she needs to go again.

I saw a talk a few years back about it and apparently the man who invented chiropractic claimed to be able to cure the common cold by manipulating one's spine. Some of the practitioners also "crack" the neck as routine manipulation but this runs the risk (very low but there is still one) to leave the person paralyzed. If the person didn't have a neck problem, then it is taking unnecessary risks.

Chiropractic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is also a section "Pseudoscience versus spinal manipulation therapy" on the Wikipedia page.