Horses losing condition in the winter

Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management

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A topic very simular to this was on another forum and atracted the same sort of differences of oppion.
My take on it what ever the horses is gereral condition facter like,how much fat in proportion to muscle,the age of animal,the amount its working, etc all play a role.
Because a horse is a human size 10, doesn't mean it less healthy than if it was a human size 16. In fact the slimmer one with a balanced diet and correct exercise would probabely be healthier.
Why are horse owners so quick to judge other people's animals on how they look when the have no knowledge of the amount of work or feeding regeme?The reasonig seems to be if your horse is slimmer than mine you must be , a bad owner and not feeding it enough. Yet if the rider was slimmer we would be asking for the formula.
I once went to a sale where a women I knew bought a poor thin pony to save it, took it home fed it and turned in it out in a nice green field and it promptly within 2 days was crippled with laminitis.
I have posted this link please look at the pictures as I think it shows in a normal home situation a pony that had loads of fat 'condition' and unwell to a pony that is in a good condition for the work that it does.
http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=health&action=display&thread=82453
Lets not confuse condition with fat, we are not going to a fatstock show and have them bought by a butcher.
 
jenki13 said:
Umm.. we have clay soil & my horse is out 24/7/365 year... It got bad in the one "paddock" which is where she had her hay (in a tyre to keep it together) but we bricked the gateways (this particular paddock has 3 off it!) & it doesn't get too deep. I walk across it in work boots & the horse doesn't get mud fever. In fact she's only had it once & she was coming into the stable every night that winter & in a drier paddock but had much poorer feet at the time & had more hard feed (don't know if this is a coincidence!).

The difference is we don't crowd the acreage that we have available for the horses, I wouldn't keep a horse on less than 2 acres so that I had minimum an acre for winter & an acre for summer.
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Good. If I kept horses out 24/7 all year round I would need 3 acres per horse. I have always said that. I only have one acre per horse which is why I supplement throughout the year with haylage.

However, even with the acreage, I doubt I would like them out 24/7. I don't think it wrong, but most of mine a whimps and they like to come in. They just seem happier to me so long as they have turn out every day and a routine.
 
MegaBeast said:
Well, I'm going to go against the grain and say that my poor doer TB mare with a limited appetite actually gains weight in Winter when she comes off grass (needed a 56" girth to go round her tum last Winter) and loses weight come April when they go back in the fields, so go figure! She is rather "special needs" though and very much the exception.
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That's interesting. I must admit that I have far more trouble keeping the weight of my two fatties in the winter than I do in the summer. But that is because it is easier to put them on a bare paddock when they can keep nibbling away and it's better for them than standing without forage in a stable. I don't think horses should stand without forage for too long.
 
Wagtail With repsect though, we are not discussion the feeding of competition horses. We are discussing horses being allowed to drop condition during the winter and whether this is a good or a bad thing.

No we aren't - or weren't to start with :rolleyes: The poll was "Horses losing condition during the winter is usually down to poor management" and some options given as to whether this was a correct statement or not.

You could always do another poll to that effect of course...
 
hch4971 said:
The thing is, there was a point, it just wasn't worded very well nor were the goal posts made clear and fixed. It could have been a really useful discussion with some good ideas floated and, who knows, some may have learned something that would benefit their own horses. I always find it very sad that people cannot share their views and be open minded to others ideas/experiences, we all have so much to learn.

PolarSkye, it certainly isn't a one size fits all discussion and is also very much down to personal preference. Personally I like mine to lose considerable weight over winter and come into spring on the lean if not thin side. My own experience has shown me that this is better for my horses and ponies - it may not be for everyone's. Wagtail was apparently wanting to know if it was because people were skimping on feeding their horses to save money that was leading to them saying that horses should lose weight over winter, although that isn't clear in the poll introduction. In my own experience it is far more expensive for us to keep our horses more naturally than it was to keep them in at night out through the day with 2 bucket feeds and a haynet. (almost double the cost actually).
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you are of course right;) there was an underlying good point but it sadly was put across very badly and suggested neglect rather than people doing right in their particular circumstances for their individual horses:)
 
Wagtail,

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread.

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can
provide for them.

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!
 
Christ almighty!!

I'll be taking advice from my Yard Owner this winter. She knows my horse as well as I do.

I fear that novices will act upon some of the drivvel posted here. My eyes crossed with all the contradictions here!!
 
hch4971 said:
Oh yes, the dreaded clay, we have that too but fortunately ours have enough acreage for it not to be too much of a problem, other than the obligatory gateways and preferred loitering areas! Fortunately we have enough dry spots for putting out the large bales through winter and have never yet had a case of mud fever so suspect we have been lucky!
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Same with us. We like our horses to drop a bit of weight over the winter.We give some of them a hard feed every day while the rest are just on ad-lib hay and grass.If we thought any of them were dropping too much weight then we would adjust our feed regime. Each one of them is happy and healthy and they live out 24/7/365. On clay.



ETA Some of them also wear rugs through the winter and are also shod
 
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Surely it is all about balance? In the summer they eat plentiful grass, don't need much if any hard feed (and I'm a firm believer that most horses can actually work perfectly well off grass alone) but are probably working harder - long hacks, more riding in the evenings, shows. In the winter they burn calories keeping themselves warm, so we assist them by using rugs as appropriate, giving hay or haylage but given the recent winters, unless you have access to an indoor , or a very well surfaced outdoor which doesn't freeze, I bet many don't get much REAL work. I took on the care of an extremely elderly but healthy pony which was frankly a hat-rack. Her owner told me she had lost weight every winter for the last 20 years and it was normal for her. It turned out that despite having no really functioning teeth except her front incisors, she never received any feed, couldn't eat hay that was put out and her rug was almost as old as her, ill-fitting and pretty well useless so no wonder the poor old girl got so thin. When I took her on she weighed 500lbs. The following winter she was over 700lbs and I had to put her on a diet before the spring grass came through. The only changes made were a decent warm, waterproof rug (she lived out, no available shelter) and a big and carefully thought through and weighed bucket of soaked feed.
 
If a horse loses CONDITION not just weight because there is a health problem then the problem should be addressed be it teeth, age whatever. Feed can be adjusted to suit , adequate rugging, heat lamps, the list is long I'm afraid & could be expensive in time, effort & money. It's up to the individual owner how far they are prepared to go so long as suffering is not involved I feel. Just my opinion but that's it.
 
RutlandH2O said:
Wagtail,

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread.

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can
provide for them.

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!
Click to expand...

Thank you Rutland! Though you are very brave in voicing your support! :) The problem is there are a few very bossy and vocal people on this forum that band together and try to batter somene into submission by attacking the person rather than the view expressed. It is always the same vocal few. Despite the fact that around 50% agree with my view and a further 10% would go even further, this whole thread is dominated by the mob of would be bullies. They are soooo mean! Lol. People do not usually dare speak out. Doesn't bother me though as I don't care a jot about what people like them think.

Your horses are lucky to have some one like you looking after them. :)
 
fatpiggy said:
Surely it is all about balance? In the summer they eat plentiful grass, don't need much if any hard feed (and I'm a firm believer that most horses can actually work perfectly well off grass alone) but are probably working harder - long hacks, more riding in the evenings, shows. In the winter they burn calories keeping themselves warm, so we assist them by using rugs as appropriate, giving hay or haylage but given the recent winters, unless you have access to an indoor , or a very well surfaced outdoor which doesn't freeze, I bet many don't get much REAL work. I took on the care of an extremely elderly but healthy pony which was frankly a hat-rack. Her owner told me she had lost weight every winter for the last 20 years and it was normal for her. It turned out that despite having no really functioning teeth except her front incisors, she never received any feed, couldn't eat hay that was put out and her rug was almost as old as her, ill-fitting and pretty well useless so no wonder the poor old girl got so thin. When I took her on she weighed 500lbs. The following winter she was over 700lbs and I had to put her on a diet before the spring grass came through. The only changes made were a decent warm, waterproof rug (she lived out, no available shelter) and a big and carefully thought through and weighed bucket of soaked feed.
Click to expand...

Agree entirely with this. The horse was needlessly losing condition and good management solved the problem.
 
RutlandH2O said:
Wagtail,

I must commend you on your post and your demeanour
throughout this thread.

As soon as I read the title of your post and its contents,
I felt a kindred spirit. I have to agree with virtually all you've
said. My 5 Shires come out of winter with a bit of condition loss, but not weight loss. My horses are over-wintered in an enormous pole barn, open to the prevailing winds, but with "wind break" areas within. The barn is separated into 3 sections, each 45' x 30'. There are eight 8' x 4' Perspex windows and many more roof lights to let in ample daylight. They are fed ad lib quality hay day and night. In the past, they got a forage-based meal day and night depending on the quality of the hay. This past winter they were fed hay exclusively. They are not rugged.

We are on heavy clay on very sloping land. The decision to
over-winter them came after a couple of bad slips and falls.
There are enough reasons that cause losses of precious
animals...slipping and falling I can control, somewhat, that's
why they are in during the worst of the winter.

When the Spring grasses start growing, they are turned out
for an hour for several days, then a couple of hours the
following week, etc. We've never had a problem.

The condition they acquire in the fields is a direct result of the
topography of the land. Their field shelter is way at the top of
one of our fields (it was one of the only pieces of level land
to accommodate the shelter). Their water trough is right near
the entrance to the paddock. These distances require them to
do a bit of hiking which, in turn, aids condition.

In a normal Summer, they are at grass 24/7 with no additional
food. This year, I'm still giving them a large haynet each at
night (in field shelters). I started giving them Readigrass and
chaff once a day last week because there is no grass. And, they
are very hungry.

My lot are not in work. They live as natural a life as I can
provide for them.

I find it very disconcerting that there are so many disrespectful,
nasty people out there. Character assassination seems to be
the rule. Why? What is the point?

I never got the feeling that you are lording it over other posters
regarding your stance on this subject (I have read every post).
Nor did I think you were changing the goal posts. In the normal
course of communication, there are tos and fros in the
interaction of ideas. That's not to say one totally discards one's
point of view. You have remained a gentleperson throughout -
good on you!
Click to expand...

The thing is RutlandH2O, nobody is disagreeing with this or saying it is wrong as far as I can see, in fact if I had the facilities I would prefer to barn mine over winter rather than have them in muddy fields. I would however still want them to lose weight over winter, because in my experience my horses are happier and far, far healthier on that regime. I would never try to ram that down anyone's throat or say they are wrong for the sort of management that you have, but for the most, on livery yards and little choice of how to manage their horses, we do our best for them. Whilst I will agree there have been a couple of heated posts, that is more out of frustration at Wagtails stance and changing views. I originally posted on this thread in good faith only for the inference to then be made that people who let their horses lose weight in winter do so to save money, I had to respond! There was also a lot of information quoted that was completely wrong and had to be corrected in case novices thought it was correct. I have posted throughout the thread but do not feel I have been disrespectful or nasty, I have tried to say it how I see it, other than in a direct response to Wagtails comments to myself.
 
Wagtail said:
Thank you Rutland! Though you are very brave in voicing your support! :) The problem is there are a few very bossy and vocal people on this forum that band together and try to batter somene into submission by attacking the person rather than the view expressed. It is always the same vocal few. Despite the fact that around 50% agree with my view and a further 10% would go even further, this whole thread is dominated by the mob of would be bullies. They are soooo mean! Lol. People do not usually dare speak out. Doesn't bother me though as I don't care a jot about what people like them think.

Your horses are lucky to have some one like you looking after them. :)
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I don't think you have been bullied, quite a few people disagreed with you, and some even stated that some of what you had said was utter nonsense.
However you picked out the ones you deemed bullies and replyed to them, having ignored some who did'nt actually argue with you but just stated there ways of management, that involved some degree of weight loss.
 
Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
 
hch4971:

I'm not going to start a he-said-she-said post. Suffice to say, as
I was reading the responses I could feel myself becoming very
agitated. The right to disagree with, or counter, a point of view
is healthy and adds to dialogue. But, when it involves contempt, vindictiveness and discourtesy, it reflects very negatively on the persons sending those posts. Wagtails conceded that there are
exceptions to the premise of her original post. As well, she
never lowered herself to words of derision or ridicule.
 
Wagtail said:
I agree that some people truly believe that as horses go through this pattern in the wild then it is best for them to go through this pattern in a domestic circumstance. I beleive that when this is done because they believe it is for the best of the horses then it is not poor management but a different opinion/philosophy to my own.
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So if what you believe is correct and I am incorrect, in your opinion, in the way that I manage my good doer - how would you manage him differently?

Wagtail said:
I presume that these people are also not riding their horses or shoeing them or rugging them or stabling them or anything else that would be deemed unnatural for them?
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That's a fairly silly comment......
 
Nothing wrong with my horse except her brain it seems! She loses weight in winter, condition drops a bit too, but only a trained eye would notice. She isn't worked in winter, lives out 24/7. Fed hay every morning, and if weather is terrible same in evenings with a feed. She WILL NOT eat what I'd love to give her, seems to get bored with munching and will simply p1ss off accross the field. Many a late, dark evening I am found trudging after her willing her to eat up! If I add anything seemingly tasty and fattening she literally turns her nose up and complains that I am trying to poison her! Only pony nuts cut the mustard with a handful of alfa a. I've had her 11 years, and she has not changed yet. I'd love to see a 'better' person understand her, and feed her up for me!! She won't eat anything in a stable, hence out 24/7 and if I rode her, she would lose even more weight.
Should add, that the summer causes us no problems what so ever. She starts being silly with her food roughly at the time of the clocks changing.
But, I did opt for the 'generally agree but...' as far as I am concerned, there are always exceptions to the rule.
 
blitznbobs said:
Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
Click to expand...

I think that he obviuosly falls into the exceptions I mentioned earlier. Have you tried feeding readigrass?
 
cool mix said:
Nothing wrong with my horse except her brain it seems! She loses weight in winter, condition drops a bit too, but only a trained eye would notice. She isn't worked in winter, lives out 24/7. Fed hay every morning, and if weather is terrible same in evenings with a feed. She WILL NOT eat what I'd love to give her, seems to get bored with munching and will simply p1ss off accross the field. Many a late, dark evening I am found trudging after her willing her to eat up! If I add anything seemingly tasty and fattening she literally turns her nose up and complains that I am trying to poison her! Only pony nuts cut the mustard with a handful of alfa a. I've had her 11 years, and she has not changed yet. I'd love to see a 'better' person understand her, and feed her up for me!! She won't eat anything in a stable, hence out 24/7 and if I rode her, she would lose even more weight.
Should add, that the summer causes us no problems what so ever. She starts being silly with her food roughly at the time of the clocks changing.
But, I did opt for the 'generally agree but...' as far as I am concerned, there are always exceptions to the rule.
Click to expand...

As I acknowledged, right from the start, there are going to be exceptions. Sounds like you have one of them. And sounds like she couldn't have a 'better person' looking after her.
 
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Fii said:
I don't think you have been bullied, quite a few people disagreed with you, and some even stated that some of what you had said was utter nonsense.
However you picked out the ones you deemed bullies and replyed to them, having ignored some who did'nt actually argue with you but just stated there ways of management, that involved some degree of weight loss.
Click to expand...

No, of course I haven't been bullied. I said 'would be bullies' there is a difference. You have to be bothered by the behaviour to make it bullying. I just think they are silly. I can't believe that any of them is over the age of thirteen TBH. Though sadly, knowing human nature, most of them most probably are. :D
 
blitznbobs said:
Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
Click to expand...
I assume he has his teeth done at the beginning of winter, have you tried soaking hay and haylage or chopping it with a chaff cutter?...... try Ebay or advertise in local farming paper.
I would also try feeding from floor in case of neck/back issues.
It might be more economical to go for a speedy beet diet, adding barley rings and mins and vits, but if he is eating chop, which is usually chopped hay with mollasses, there is the answer!
Aim for keeping his summer condition by feeding from September onwards, as once the weight comes off it is difficult to put it back on, weigh out his grub and make sure he is getting enough, he is a big horse, might weigh 7-800 kilos, so 2.5% of that is 17 to 20 kgs per day, which is a lot!
Is the barley micronised [more nutritious] or unprocessed?
 
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Why do you seem to think you would need 3 acres per horse for them to just live at grass?? :confused: We keep ours at grass and don't have 3 acres each and they winter just fine. Even without rugs.
 
Wagtail said:
Ours will have the odd day out in the fields in winter and very early spring if it has been dry enough and the ground is not frozen. That way the grass gets nibbled and there is therefore never a sudden rush of grass. Occasionally when this has not been possible they are strip grazed to avoid too much intake. If I had loads of acres then I would cut it for hay and so again, there would not be too much spring grass for them to go out on.
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I have to take issue with you re the grass getting nibbled occasionally stops a sudden rush of grass. I take hay off my 6 acres, the horses then are out 24/7 over winter, with very occasional hay when there is snow/heavy frost, and come spring it still shoots up. They have been on less than an acre since about March, and it is still growing.
As to the original question, I like ours to drop a little weight over winter but didn't manage it last winter, they do drop condition/muscle tone as don't have much work.
 
blitznbobs said:
Ok so I'm willing to learn... I have a 18hh 24 year old Gelderlander cross that doesn't like hay or haylage (but loves grass). If you give him totally adlib hay and haylage he leaves it. He has 4 hard feeds a day in the winter (full amount of slobber mash and also barley and large amounts of chop) and he drops weight A LOT over the winter. How do I stop him losing weight?

Thanks

BnBx
Click to expand...
I start winter feed in September, the grass is not as good as it looks, [though beware of magnesium deficiency / laminitis if there is an autumn flush of grass]
The cost of your feed is so great that you can benefit from buying straights rather than branded feeds, but you have to be careful.
I would suggest micronised barley rather than ordinary barley
Seaweed meal and linseed meal, limestone flour and other straights from natural horse supplies, make a study of the feeding regime as it is difficult ot get the balance right.
See if you can get a chaff cutter [local farming paper] to make your own chop [hay, straw, limestone flour sprayed with molasses]
Alfa-oil is good for another source of fibre plus oil
 
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