Hound 'culling'

popsdosh said:
So what do you do if your a trainer who knows your horses.Quite rightly they are selective and most know if they will be better off in a quieter environment. Do you just let them go to anybody because they might ? be better. I still say about 50% of a cross sample(not just those selected) of horses off the track could be rehabbed by an average competent rider.
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You do what the owner tells you to do.If he wants it sold, it's sold.
 
popsdosh said:
My initial point was the legality of using captive bolt to kill it(they are not designed to kill) cannot be used on its own as you are obviously aware .The obvious point from there was why did they not inject a dog as you need the same degree of control to effectively use a captive bolt gun. It was not me who was splitting hairs but those who said it was legal.
Did I get the firearms bit right maybe? So predictable its getting boring!
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Why would a dog prefer to be injected, which at a vets means shaving the leg and forcing the dog to hold still while a needle is inserted into a vein, than to be stunned with a bolt?

Why do you think a dog needs more restraint to shoot with a bolt than with a bullet? Since there's no risk to the handler from a stay bullet, I think it's probably less.
 
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Is anyone else peeing themselves laughing at people who've never trained an ex racer in their lives telling those of us who've done dozens between us that it can't be done?
 
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ycbm said:
Why would a dog prefer to be injected, which at a vets means shaving the leg and forcing the dog to hold still while a needle is inserted into a vein, than to be stunned with a bolt?
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Still needs to be held still the use a bolt gun! Both are legitimate ways however the bolt gun would be by far the less common personally free bullet would beat both but thats my opinion.
 
popsdosh said:
Still needs to be held still the use a bolt gun! Both are legitimate ways however the bolt gun would be by far the less common personally free bullet would beat both but thats my opinion.
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It was not in dispute that they need to be held. Your question was why they did not inject, with your inference being that injection would be better. There's a world of difference between getting a dog to hold his head still and hanging onto his arm to shave it and then get a needle into a vein while he desperately tries to get it away from you.
 
Wagtail, Goldenstar and all those who've taken horses out of training; at no point have I or others used the word 'Never'. OF COURSE there are those hoses which can have their previous mindset altered, and they can become useful horses which are to be enjoyed, but and it's a HUGE but, the knowledge and experience which is needed is a rare commodity! The number of horses which I see which have come out of racing and simply stand around doing nothing, are most certainly in the majority.

Quiet genuinely, I take my hat of to those of you who manage such potentially difficult horses, but would you honestly say that the bulk of those animals are 'honestly' suitable, and as a project, for those who simply don't have either your experience or commitment? Far too many horses out of training end up in the wrong hands, and as popsdosh has said, KS was a shambolic and shameful episode, but that's an aside!

Now to Captive Bolt Guns; I wonder just how many have used them. I have, extensively though that will probably be of little importance to some! :) The process is that a blank firing RF cartridge is used to drive forward an app. 10mm steel bolt, and in to the brain of the animal. With the shot placed correctly, there is absolutely no chance of a return to a conscious state, NONE. With an animal which has its brain effectively scrambled, the heart continues to pump and allows the slaughterman to bleed the animal. A free bullet works in exactly the same manner, but the difference is that within confined spaces, the danger of an animal turning its head at the last moment, and an exiting bullet bouncing around the walls, is why they're rarely used 'indoors'. The word 'Stun' is a misnomer when applied to CB pistols. The only true stunning is performed either by electric shock, in the case of commercially killed sheep and pigs, or in what's called a 'knocker', which is in effect a hammer effect delivered, generally by pneumatic means, and both would be recoverable. Again, a Captive Bolt Pistol is non-recovarable, when used correctly.

Within the slaughter system, both cattle and horses are generally 'pithed'. Pithing is the process of passing a rod of some sort through the hole in the skull and down, in to and along, the spinal column. The effect of 'pithing' is to deaden any likely spinal reactions which can have the animal make involuntary kicks and so put the slaughterman at risk. Once pithed, the bleeding-out can begin and whilst, importantly, the heart is still beating.

A bit of a gooey subject, I accept, but if the process is clearly understood, so the misconceptions may be avoided.

Alec.
 
ycbm said:
It was not in dispute that they need to be held. Your question was why they did not inject, with your inference being that injection would be better. There's a world of difference between getting a dog to hold his head still and hanging onto his arm to shave it and then get a needle into a vein while he desperately tries to get it away from you.
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....that is of course assuming that a vein that hasn't collapsed can be found in the first place. Not always so easy in an oldie that is on his way out. :(
 
ycbm said:
Is anyone else peeing themselves laughing at people who've never trained an ex racer in their lives telling those of us who've done dozens between us that it can't be done?
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:D but don't you know, ycbm, that a racehorse is a completely different species to normal horses!
 
Alec Swan said:
Wagtail, Goldenstar and all those who've taken horses out of training; at no point have I or others used the word 'Never'. OF COURSE there are those hoses which can have their previous mindset altered, and they can become useful horses which are to be enjoyed, but and it's a HUGE but, the knowledge and experience which is needed is a rare commodity! The number of horses which I see which have come out of racing and simply stand around doing nothing, are most certainly in the majority.

Quiet genuinely, I take my hat of to those of you who manage such potentially difficult horses, but would you honestly say that the bulk of those animals are 'honestly' suitable, and as a project, for those who simply don't have either your experience or commitment? Far too many horses out of training end up in the wrong hands, and as popsdosh has said, KS was a shambolic and shameful episode, but that's an aside!

Alec.
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As I said above, Alex, they are a completely different species to normal horses :D

On a serious note, I retrained my first ex-racer in my early twenties. Even though I had ridden since I was eight, I was a complete novice at training horses. I was nothing special or a rare commodity. Just a confident young rider with a 'sticky' seat. Obviously, I learned more as I progressed, but I would say many capable novices could take on an ex-racer with success. Many others could not, of course, but the people who can, and do are not anywhere as rare as you seem to think. Those of us who have retrained ex-racers all know, that on the contrary to being difficult, they have the best manners, are usually unphased by hacking out, or travelling, or big crowds with lots of other horses milling about. I'd rather take an ex-racer to a show than most pleasure horses.
 
I do feel there is a big difference between a foxhound and a greyhound. A foxhound does hours upon hours of exercise, a greyhound gets exercised much of the time on a lead and when he is allowed to sprint he does it for a relatively short time.

That said I do feel it cruel to never allow a greyhound to run. I have no issue with the rehoming of racing greyhounds but they should have access to an area where they can play zoomies.
 
Peter7917 said:
I do feel there is a big difference between a foxhound and a greyhound. A foxhound does hours upon hours of exercise, a greyhound gets exercised much of the time on a lead and when he is allowed to sprint he does it for a relatively short time.

That said I do feel it cruel to never allow a greyhound to run. I have no issue with the rehoming of racing greyhounds but they should have access to an area where they can play zoomies.
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I refer you to my earlier comments on this thread - some ex racing greyhounds don't want to "play zoomies" even when they get the chance :) it is a common misconception that greyhounds need to run, but they really don't.
 
Surely any dog should be part of a pack? Hounds live in packs, the idea of them being "rehomed" away from the pack they have grown up in, sounds horrendous imo. When they are drafted into other packs, they at least have the familiarity of "the job", to be rehomed into a family home sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, both for the hound and the family. I don't agree with "only dogs" regardless of their origin, but hounds deprived of their social interactions sounds cruel to me.
 
kateandluelue said:
Haha brilliant! He is a dog expert you know. He confirmed it tonight with his thorough assessment of hounds and their needs. No working dog can lead a non working life. Alec 'Cesar' Swan has confirmed it.
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to be fair, Alec has spent his whole life training and working with 'working' dogs, so he does know what he is talking about.
 
KautoStar1 said:
to be fair, Alec has spent his whole life training and working with 'working' dogs, so he does know what he is talking about.
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I dont doubt that but he does have a habit of spouting off about things he has little knowledge of such as ex racehorses becoming happy hackers etc and also rescue dogs, just because he knew of a few that had problems he is tarring all rescue dogs with problems.

I also know loads of ex greyhounds who are couch potatoes, they show no stress, do not display calming signals to calm themselves down, love the odd hoon but will knock you over for the best seat by the fire and have to be dragged out for a walk.
 
My partners old beagle that was pts last year was only a couple of months old when it was evident she was not going to make the height she needed to be, she was 2" too short at the shoulder to run with the pack, and was therefore going to be shot.

Luckily the kennel man was my partners old boss and he rang my partner to see if he wanted the dog as he knew my partner had recently got divorced and was lonely living on his own. He lived on 250 acres so he had a brilliant home to offer her. So my partner and his kids who were only young then drove down and picked her up from the kennels. He ended up having 14 happy years with her. She was a brilliant dog, and used to 'speak' when she got on the scent. Most regulars who visited the riding club knew Candy, she had a lot of people who used to make a fuss of her and was much loved by all. She had a brilliant life, and used to wander round the huge garden we had the last few years and actually used to wait for her friend the fox that used to visit the field by the mobile and would go and play with it as it grew dusk.

We now have a wonderful rescue beagle from Beagle Welfare, but I wonder how many of those are rehomed from hunt kennels?
 
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Dry Rot said:
There was a feature article in one of the country glossies not that long ago extolling the virtues of English setters as pets and saying how rare they had become. The article, as I recall, was mostly orientated towards promoting the breed as a working gundog.

But there are as many variations in specific gundog breeds that it is dangerous to generalise. The strain of working English setters I had were powerful workers. I would not boter to own one from a pet strain. Once they realised there was game out there, they became paranoid and if they got out, they'd be off hunting -- not just for an hour or two, but for the rest of the day! They would do anything to escape and could not even be trusted at exercise. A previous professional breeder used to sell puppies to pet homes on the clear understanding that he'd buy them back if they proved unsuitable for the same price. That way we got a lot of pups nicely reared and socialised ready for training at no cost! They were definitely not pet material! He'd then introduce them to game, export the ones that worked, and shoot the rest. That was back in the 40's and 50's and most of them went to the USA.

I'd suggest that that applies to a lot of working breeds. Some strains of working sheepdog, for example, become so frustrated in pet homes that they start working anything. There is at least one case on record of a dog that would herd chldren into a corner and then sit and guard them. If they moved, they'd be treated as a working dog would handle escaping sheep!

Yes, sometimes it can work. But it is plain stupidity to suggest that all working dogs make good pets and will happily integrate into the family home. It is not just the dog that will become stressed!
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I have a Llewellyn type English Setter, and cannot recommend your post enough. She came to us from rescue at 6mths old, and I thought I knew dogs... ha! That animal can find the only pigeon in 1000 acres in 3 minutes, no matter what the distraction (ignores people, dogs, food, guns - only fur and feathers matter). She rid our lawn of moles by 'setting' for hours until one moved, and diving through the ground to get them.

For a while I despaired of keeping her from escaping - I've seen her jump a 12ft wall, and she opens doors both ways! No way was she an appropriate pet, although she would obey arm signals at half a mile distance (even from horseback), if she thought we were 'hunting' together.

She's now 10, and for the last couple of years has been a lovely, amenable house dog... but she still nips over the 4ft stock fence to hunt rabbits in the hedgerow for a couple of hours every day!
 
stormox said:
... Huntsmen are also trained in stitching wounds, as pack hounds fight occasionally, or get injured by wire, or muntjacks. A huntsman is a true professional, good at his job, which is so much more than just controlling hounds when out hunting.
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Do the huntsmen who stitch wounds have a special dispensation to do so? I thought it was only vets who could perform such surgery on animals. Just curious.
 
Dobiegirl said:
I dont doubt that but he does have a habit of spouting off about things he has little knowledge of such as ex racehorses becoming happy hackers etc and also rescue dogs, just because he knew of a few that had problems he is tarring all rescue dogs with problems.

I also know loads of ex greyhounds who are couch potatoes, they show no stress, do not display calming signals to calm themselves down, love the odd hoon but will knock you over for the best seat by the fire and have to be dragged out for a walk.
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I was referring to kateandluelue comment rather than anything else. It was rather rude and those of us who know Alec, know full well he knows his dogs. And I don't think he was tarring all rescue dogs, simply saying those 'rescued' as previous 'working' dogs usually had issues relating to their past life that made living a domesticated life more challenging and often unworkable. Or at least that was how I read it.
 
fburton,I dont know whether they need a certificate to stitch, but hounds tear themselves regularly on barbed wire etc, when they're running and the adrenalines up they feel very little if they get an injury. Certainly the professional kennel huntsman at my local pack regularly stitched horses, hounds etc, and vaccinated them, and shot them if necessary,all done very expertly.
 
KautoStar1 said:
I was referring to kateandluelue comment rather than anything else. It was rather rude and those of us who know Alec, know full well he knows his dogs. And I don't think he was tarring all rescue dogs, simply saying those 'rescued' as previous 'working' dogs usually had issues relating to their past life that made living a domesticated life more challenging and often unworkable. Or at least that was how I read it.
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I read it that he said that those who re-homed greyhounds were pretty much condeming them to a life in prison. A rude, unfair and ill-informed comment in my book. He may 'know' dogs but to someone who doesn't know him he comes across as very prejudiced and biased. When questioned on how to know whether a dog is 'stressed' I think his answer was along the lines of 'if you can't see it then there's no way to explain it'. That's complete tosh, I've worked on a bite prevention programme for children, and helping children and adults spot the signs of stress, anxiety and discomfort in dogs is very 'doable'. There's no magic or mystery to it. Also, the fact that someone has a background in working dogs isn't necessarily a good thing - there's a local gundog trainer round here who sets himself up as a 'dog behaviourist' and has ruined several local pet dogs through his harsh handling techniques - most recently a young collie that ended up being destroyed through fear aggression made worse by his 'dominant' approach. People with working dogs take the attitude that if the dog doesn't fit the bill it'll be shot - pet dog people don't think like that. Neither is 'right' nor 'wrong' - just difference of opinion and room for both. Not saying that Alec runs around calling himself a behaviourist and messing up dogs, but just that having a background in working dogs doesn't necessarily automatically make you an expert on everything 'dog'.
 
My interpretation of the "ex-racer debate" on this thread was that one side is saying that while many ex-racers go on to be successfully retrained into a variety of spheres, many don't even make it to another home as so many are culled. Out of the ones who do make it to other homes, many are sadly ruined by riders who've bitten off more than they can chew. The thoroughbred is clearly a fantastic animal but poor retraining has sadly created a bad reputation. Also, just because many people have successfully retrained an OTTB doesn't mean that huge numbers aren't pts without ever being rehomed.

Re re-homing foxhounds, while I'm sure there a few exceptions, as this thread has shown, I think that in general most would really not take to domestic life away from their pack. IMO it's a far bigger change to go from a pack environment to a domestic one than the change that a racehorse goes through.

I'm definitely pro-shooting as personally I think it is the most humane way of killing. I'm sure it is very difficult for those who have to do it, but I can think of no better death for a hound than to be relaxed, with his master and unaware of what is about to happen.
 
Shouldn't the hunts give the hounds some kind of retirement in an 'old pack'? I cannot believe that anyone who really loves their dogs/hounds would shoot them while they are still healthy and only seven years old. As I said in a previous post, the reason this kind of retirement is not given to the hounds is due to economics and practicalities. It is hardly mercy killing, and the last kind deed a loving master gives his hounds, as some posters try to portray it.

However, having said all that, this is real life, and life isn't kind or fair or ideal. Hounds have a very good life compared to the majority of farm animals or dogs brought up in cruel or inappropriate homes. Whilst I do not swallow the idea of a loving master shooting his hounds through kindness, and think that they deserve some kind of retirement given to them by the hunt, it is not an issue I am that concerned about when I compare it to the plight of many other animals.
 
I'm afraid I do not understand the logic of some of the posters here. If done correctly, how can shooting be cruel? Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. An animal that is dead is not suffering. To quote Woody Allen, "It is not the passing but the manner of the passing".

In my father's last days, the circulation in his legs got so bad the doctors recommended amputation for fear of gangrene. Thankfully, he died before they could commence their mutilation. I had a friend who had been behind the lines in Burma during the war, a game warden in Africa, etc. so one hell of a full life. He blew his brains out with his trusty 7mm when he was 90.

Personally, my ambition is to be shot in the back by a jealous husband.

(The clue is in the screen name).
 
Wagtail said:
Shouldn't the hunts give the hounds some kind of retirement in an 'old pack'? I cannot believe that anyone who really loves their dogs/hounds would shoot them while they are still healthy and only seven years old. As I said in a previous post, the reason this kind of retirement is not given to the hounds is due to economics and practicalities. It is hardly mercy killing, and the last kind deed a loving master gives his hounds, as some posters try to portray it.

However, having said all that, this is real life, and life isn't kind or fair or ideal. Hounds have a very good life compared to the majority of farm animals or dogs brought up in cruel or inappropriate homes. Whilst I do not swallow the idea of a loving master shooting his hounds through kindness, and think that they deserve some kind of retirement given to them by the hunt, it is not an issue I am that concerned about when I compare it to the plight of many other animals.
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I sincerely hope you are not suggesting the majority of farm animals are brought up in cruel conditions?
 
Wagtail said:
With the exception of most sheep, yes I am, very much so.
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hahahaha you truely havent a clue so what is cruel about how cattle are reared? Free range pigs? Free range chickens for egg production? Then tell me your definition of majority . Why have you singled out sheep as an exception ?
 
popsdosh said:
hahahaha you truely havent a clue so what is cruel about how cattle are reared? Free range pigs? Free range chickens for egg production? Then tell me your definition of majority . Why have you singled out sheep as an exception ?
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I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range. The definition regulations of free range for pigs and chickens leaves an awful lot to be desired.
 
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Wagtail said:
I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range.
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.I have lived on a farm and known lots of farmers.All are hard ,they have to be otherwise how could they do all the things they have to do to produce meat.I do know some small farmers whose animals have a better time,but in general farm animals suffer,
 
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