Hound 'culling'

[catembi]

Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves? Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging? Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x

 

[spookypony]

gosh, how did a thread on culling foxhounds turn into a 'downer' on retired greyhounds? I've known several retired greyhounds - a few of my friends have had them, my uncle, and my Dad's best friend, bless him, when he was alive. To my mind they make great companion dogs. The only 'stress' I ever saw was one who had separation distress when left, that one was my friend's dog, and she just went and got another greyhound - problem solved! (She was never leaving them for a long time, only for a couple of hours as she is semi-retired and works from home). They are total comfort lovers and seem very affectionate to their owners, and the ones I've seen are easy and well-mannered to walk on the lead. I think you've got to be sensible and responsible about whether you let them off lead or not, and where, but that's the same with all dogs.

I have to say my experience was similar. The first while was a bit stressful, as the greyhound had to work out how to negotiate stairs, what rawhide bones were for, that cacti do not make good chew toys, and that you can't just go into any house you please when you get tired on your walk. But after that first while, he was a pretty chilled-out dog that loved to sleep, play, and run around the dog park with other dogs. His tail was a bit of a menace because he operated it like a propeller when he got excited, and the cat learned to fetch before he did, but other than that, I'd say he was a pretty normal dog! He had raced in the USA (it's illegal in Canada) with rather moderate success: he finished his career with 43 races, 7 wins, 8 seconds, graded A. No superstar, but from my very limited understanding, not a complete washout either.

 

[respectedpony driver]

I am with you catembi.

Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves? Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging? Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x

 

[popsdosh]

I was brought up on a farm in Wales. It had sheep, beef and dairy cows, and my best friend's parents farmed pigs and rabbits. I know exactly how they are kept, thank you. It is not only how they are kept but the castration without local anaesthetic, taking calves from their mothers at a day old. Wintering in overcrowded barns deep in their own muck, the awful crowded travelling and long drive to the abattoir, and finally, the killing itself. Many are not unconscious when their throats are cut. They smell the blood on arrival. They are poked and prodded and worse. Sheep endure much of that too of course, but the majority of their life is very free range. The definition regulations of free range for pigs and chickens leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it.
whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.

 

[Sandstone1]

Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it.
whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.

Good answer, I don't agree that farming not cruel but you make a good point.

 

[chillipup]

I'm pleased you have been able to agree with my previous post on this subject Alec. I suspect popsdosh will be much happier to accept your word rather than mine and will now realise I was not talking twaddle!!!

However, I must correct you on the following:-

The used of a captive bolt gun, if used correctly, causes immediate unconsciousness in the animal through a concussion action to the skull (As stun guns can be both penetrative and non penetrative) However, It does not guarantee the animal is dead or that consciousness may not return, in the case of cattle, goats or sheep, horses etc. Which is why it is called a 'stun gun' (as opposed to a 'humane killer' and the reason why animals shot by this method have to be bled (stuck) in a slaughter house for food - or pithed in the case of field casualties - immediately to ensure death has occurred. The bolt does not destroy the entire brain. Only a free fire pistol or rifle can do this. Pithing ensures the brain is well and truly mushed and that all nerves are severed to the brain, as it is driven into the spinal column. A captive bolt used on a large animal cannot penetrate into the spinal column.

Cattle, sheep or goats, destined for humane consumption or animal consumption, are no longer pithed in the slaughter house. They go straight from being stunned to shackled and stuck/bled. This was introduced into all UK slaughter houses in 2001 by the EC due to BSE concerns regarding pithing.
Please check out the following links as I'm sure you will not be convinced by my post. www.hsa.org.uk and choose online publications, followed by Captive bolt stunning of livestock. Also www.gov.uk/guidance/red-meat-slaughterhouses-restraining-stunning-killing-animals.

NB This may be of little importance to you Alec, but I have trained in the correct use the captive bolt stun gun (a Temple Cox - rather heavy and similar looking to a black and decker drill) and held the appropriate firearms licence to do so, prior to it being declassified from sect 1 status in 1998. Some of this training was conducted within slaughter houses.

 

[popsdosh]

I'm pleased you have been able to agree with my previous post on this subject Alec. I suspect popsdosh will be much happier to accept your word rather than mine and will now realise I was not talking twaddle!!!

However, I must correct you on the following:-

The used of a captive bolt gun, if used correctly, causes immediate unconsciousness in the animal through a concussion action to the skull (As stun guns can be both penetrative and non penetrative) However, It does not guarantee the animal is dead or that consciousness may not return, in the case of cattle, goats or sheep, horses etc. Which is why it is called a 'stun gun' (as opposed to a 'humane killer' and the reason why animals shot by this method have to be bled (stuck) in a slaughter house for food - or pithed in the case of field casualties - immediately to ensure death has occurred. The bolt does not destroy the entire brain. Only a free fire pistol or rifle can do this. Pithing ensures the brain is well and truly mushed and that all nerves are severed to the brain, as it is driven into the spinal column. A captive bolt used on a large animal cannot penetrate into the spinal column.

Cattle, sheep or goats, destined for humane consumption or animal consumption, are no longer pithed in the slaughter house. They go straight from being stunned to shackled and stuck/bled. This was introduced into all UK slaughter houses in 2001 by the EC due to BSE concerns regarding pithing.
Please check out the following links as I'm sure you will not be convinced by my post. www.hsa.org.uk and choose online publications, followed by Captive bolt stunning of livestock. Also www.gov.uk/guidance/red-meat-slaughterhouses-restraining-stunning-killing-animals.

NB This may be of little importance to you Alec, but I have trained in the correct use the captive bolt stun gun (a Temple Cox - rather heavy and similar looking to a black and decker drill) and held the appropriate firearms licence to do so, prior to it being declassified from sect 1 status in 1998. Some of this training was conducted within slaughter houses.

Is that not indeed what I was trying to point out! I knew the situation re legality and didnt wish to be contentious about it after Alecs post anyhow thanks for confirming what I believed was correct all along!

I cannot for the life of me understand how they were ever declassified! To my knowledge at least 3 murders since then have involved them. Any Tom,Dick or Henrietta can buy one.

 

[Toffee44]

For my pennies worth many of you know I canicross with my dogs. I regulary hang out with a few foxhounds and trail hounds.

Whilst I disagree that its cruel to rehome I feel that after a working life it is not fair on the dog to go into domesticated living. The hounds I run have had upset lives very early on. One was a trail hound who took down a sheep, another who was accused of upsetting another dog during a race and finally the foxhound who was separated from the pack due to sabs who then Spent a long while in kennels and when the foxhound rescue returned the dog to the pack the huntsman did not want to try and integrate the dog back in due to time away etc.

One of the trailhounds is basically a lab excellent recall, no problems really. He runs with us but quite often loose.

Another cannot be let off at all but "dad" runs marathons and the hound thrives on this!

And finally the foxhound who is bloody hard work. He does a bit of agility and he has just qualified in search and rescue and also runs or bikes with me or his mum half mara+ has recall and is my dogs best friend.


But this only works as the owners lives are dedicated to these dogs. They also foster and have hounds in and out. But none of these dogs have had a long career in a hunting pack so have never known that life, but do each have a job.

They would not cope with a little walk every day. I know of several other hounds out running who love the long distance stuff but do need dedicated owners with a hound life mentality and the ability to run them the milage they need.

 

[popsdosh]

Okay, so farming isn't cruel...

What happens to the male chicks that aren't needed for egg laying?
What happens to the hens once they've got too old to lay regularly?
Aren't dairy cows pretty much permanently pregnant (I don't think pregnancy is particularly pleasant) & don't they go through the agony of birth every year?
What happens to them once their bodies are worn out from the constant cycle of pregnancy and birth?
What happens to all their calves? Don't the cows have a very strong maternal instinct?
Ear tagging? Human ear piercing through cartilage is often v painful & poor healing, but those whacking great tags are fine?

Sounds pretty miserable to me.

My grandfather was a farmer (arable, pigs & broiler chickens) which set me on the path to vegetarianism, & I'm now as close to vegan as I can manage.

T x

Just to say I have no issue with Vegetarians or Vegans each to their own and if those are your beliefs I support you for upholding them.

I just struggle a bit taking Vegans who ride horses seriously how do you justify it when you have such strong beliefs ?because I couldnt. That is a serious question not being facetious.

 

[Wagtail]

Oh dear oh dear.!! By law my yarded cows have to have more space than a horse in a 12X12 stable and they get to go wherever in the shed they wish too. Whats the point in arguing I know all my animals have the best life they can until the moment they are dispatched otherwise I would not be doing it.
whats more they dont get a saddle put on their backs ,a steel bar slammed in their gobs and have to put up with somebody riding them everyday. They even get fed a diet that is not alien to them that can cause ulcers either as a direct consequence or stress.

You make very good points about horses. I actually don't like bits. My little mare was backed bitless. I hate the way some horses are treated, backed too young, whipped, have no turnout etc. You'll have no arguments from me there.

But how do you answer to my main points:

Castration without anaesthetic
Calves taken away from their mothers at a day old
Kept in sheds all winter (not exercised like horses)
Transported to their deaths in overcrowded containers and the suffering in the abattoirs

How do you know they don't have ulcers? Until a few years ago you were feeding them to themselves which caused BSE. Only stopped because of this. Who knows if they have ulcers. Have you scoped them?

 

[Wagtail]

Anyway, this thread has deviated somewhat. My main point is that hounds have a better life than many other animals including most farm animals.

 

[Knockadoon]

I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.

 

[chillipup]

I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.

Well said K, I've always been wary of any rescue that states it has a no kill policy. I've seen first hand what affect kenneling long term can have on a dog, especially when many so called 'pitbulls' were seized under the dangerous dogs act when it was first introduced and dogs which had to spend 6 months in quarantine long before pet passports were widely available.

 

[CinnamonChristmasCookie]

I used to work in a rescue that never put a healthy dog down. Unfortunately this meant that many unsuitable for rehoming spent a long time in kennels. They all went a bit mad. A bullet would have been a mercy. There are worse things for an animal than being dead.

Totally agree. I don't understand the whole keep a healthy dog, but he's aggressive to other dogs/people/has a massive issue. Far better, surely, to make room for an easy to re-home dog.

 

[chillipup]

I'm afraid I do not understand the logic of some of the posters here. If done correctly, how can shooting be cruel? Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. An animal that is dead is not suffering. To quote Woody Allen, "It is not the passing but the manner of the passing".
In my father's last days, the circulation in his legs got so bad the doctors recommended amputation for fear of gangrene. Thankfully, he died before they could commence their mutilation. I had a friend who had been behind the lines in Burma during the war, a game warden in Africa, etc. so one hell of a full life. He blew his brains out with his trusty 7mm when he was 90.

Personally, my ambition is to be shot in the back by a jealous husband.

(The clue is in the screen name).

LOL I'd like be able to do the same DR but by the jealous wife of my adonis of a lover....one can but dream...

 

[Addicted to Hunting]

Havnt read all the thread but have the read the first few pages, can assure you that hounds do indeed see the vet, each pack has a letter drawn up with their vets re treatment, and are inspected by the MFHA that everything is correct every few years. I'm a vets daughter and also work at the vets, as well as going hunting, we regularly will check up on any at kennels, as well as have them into the surgery if needed, granted we try and get them in at a quiet time so they aren't sat in the waiting room, and also partly to avoid politics. I've helped on a few emergency caesers, one in fact we did during a party, (we did leave the party and go to surgery) and we've had them in for various other things, we are all gutted if we can't help them, including hunt staff. I've seen dogs but down by injection and also seen hounds shot, I wouldn't say any way is worse, but due to having to find a vein, the bullet is basically quicker. Yes some relationships between hunts and vets may not be as good, but some are. There are good and bad parts of everything, but have to say all of the hunt staff I know and have seen all love their hounds, and are upset when one dies/has to be put down.

 

[chillipup]

Is that not indeed what I was trying to point out! I knew the situation re legality and didnt wish to be contentious about it after Alecs post anyhow thanks for confirming what I believed was correct all along
I cannot for the life of me understand how they were ever declassified! To my knowledge at least 3 murders since then have involved them. Any Tom,Dick or Henrietta can buy one.

Why thank you popsdosh... I do declare, it seems we actually agree on something
Yes, it does seem rather odd that they were declassified, being pretty lethal either way, especially in the wrong hands I'm assuming the gangbangers of our inner cities don't know about this potential weapon, or prefer they'd rather do their killing from a distance!

I should be looking forward to Alec's reply to my post, not to gloat in anyway, but just for some sort of acknowledgement or even a smidge of recognition from him, regarding my post.

Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns.

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

Oh go on AS, you know you really want to...

 

[YorksG]

Why thank you popsdosh... I do declare, it seems we actually agree on something
Yes, it does seem rather odd that they were declassified, being pretty lethal either way, especially in the wrong hands I'm assuming the gangbangers of our inner cities don't know about this potential weapon, or prefer they'd rather do their killing from a distance!

I should be looking forward to Alec's reply to my post, not to gloat in anyway, but just for some sort of acknowledgement or even a smidge of recognition from him, regarding my post.

Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns.

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

Oh go on AS, you know you really want to...

What a graceless post!

 

[chillipup]

What a graceless post!

I think you fail to realise YG, popsdosh and I have not (always, or ever, I think) seen eye to eye. I am at least recognising we do in fact have some things in common, finally. No ungraceous post here! I am more than happy to acknowledge our differences and embrace some similarities. Isn't that what life is all about? finding some common ground YG ?

As per AS replying to my post, he has made it quite clear, by previously examples show, that should I dare to question a post he's made or call him out on a comment he has made, I am ignored by him without any justification or acknowledgement. I still don't know why. At least popsdosh has the balls to say what she thinks. I'm growing fonder by the day

 

[popsdosh]

You make very good points about horses. I actually don't like bits. My little mare was backed bitless. I hate the way some horses are treated, backed too young, whipped, have no turnout etc. You'll have no arguments from me there.

But how do you answer to my main points:

Castration without anaesthetic
Calves taken away from their mothers at a day old
Kept in sheds all winter (not exercised like horses)
Transported to their deaths in overcrowded containers and the suffering in the abattoirs

How do you know they don't have ulcers? Until a few years ago you were feeding them to themselves which caused BSE. Only stopped because of this. Who knows if they have ulcers. Have you scoped them?

I shall try and answer some of your questions why I dont know as all it seems to do is raise more questions and this thread has gone somewhat off subject.
Castration , there are three methods of castration that can be used Rubber ring has to be applied within 7 days of birth this would be the most common having done thousands over the years I can honestly say I have rarely seen any pain reaction to this method and they just get on with life like nothing has happened unlike lambs who will squirm about a bit until they go numb. Method 2 is budizzo which is bloodless proceedure were the spermatic cord is crushed this can be done up to eight weeks. method three is surgically remove with aneasthetic which can only be done by a vet after 8 weeks.
If you dont believe me on the rubber rings you are welcome to come and see for yourself.

Calves are indeed within a dairy herd taken from their mothers at a young age. It sort of defeats the object of keeping dairy cows if you dont. Mine are beef cows so their calves are usually with them until they are 8-9 months there is never a good time to part cows and calves you will always get noise and upset you get no more at two days than you do at nine months . personally having worked with dairy herds in the past there is less of a bond at two days .Cows are a lot more pragmatic than the layman thinks as we put human values on it . Again if you wish to drink milk its a necessary thing that has to happern

The space issue as I said legally my cows have to have more floor space per cow than a 12x12 stable however they are not restricted to that area and can roam about at freewill within the yards each being about 600 m2 on top of this they have to have seperate feeding space. Cows in general as most will know are more sedentary than horses so the exercise is sort of as much as they want and in truth spend most of the time laying down or eating.

Your question about transport and slaughter was put with an emotive slant.
i am sorry but there are strict regulations covering animal transport that has to be adhered too more so than riders transporting their horses. They have to be loaded at a certain density to keep them safe during the journey many members of the public think this is overcrowded its not The lorry has to have divisions about every 10ft If they are to loose within the lorry they will crash around and injure each other. In abattoirs now all parts from unloading into lairage up to the killing box are all covered by recorded CCTV which I hope gives you some reassurance This in turn is monitored by on sight government vets. . Have you ever been to an abattoir as I dont recognise them as you describe. Slaughtering animals poorly and mishandling is so counter productive to running an efficient modern plant I find it so disheartening when people make these assumptions about the end the animals come to without witnessing it so you know the facts not what your fed from the internet by those opposed to meat eating full stop. I personally have a dislike of some slaughter methods that should not be allowed in my mind as we are pandering to extreme religious views.

Finally I have yet to meet a cow with an ulcer and I am never likely to . They never get stressed enough

I hope Wagtail you appreciate I have taken the time to answer your questions I dont wish to get involved in an argument just accept there my view on the things you asked about I dont expect you to agree however I am trying to give it to you as it is rather than some extreme video on the internet . I have nothing to hide here people can come and look and make their own minds up. Just as further reassurance we can be inspected by several agencies at any time without warning to make sure we are doing all we should.

 

[popsdosh]

I think you fail to realise YG, popsdosh and I have not (always, or ever, I think) seen eye to eye. I am at least recognising we do in fact have some things in common, finally. No ungraceous post here! I am more than happy to acknowledge our differences and embrace some similarities. Isn't that what life is all about? finding some common ground YG ?

As per AS replying to my post, he has made it quite clear, by previously examples show, that should I dare to question a post he's made or call him out on a comment he has made, I am ignored by him without any justification or acknowledgement. I still don't know why. At least popsdosh has the balls to say what she thinks. I'm growing fonder by the day

I think we agree on more than you think however as they say theres more than one way to skin a cat. I know unfortunate phrase!

 

[chillipup]

I think we agree on more than you think however as they say theres more than one way to skin a cat. I know unfortunate phrase!

LOL... thanks popsdosh, I appreciate the humour.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..
Sadly, I won't be holding my breath, as I can almost guarantee he will refrain from replying or even acknowledging,(on such a public forum) that his post was flawed regarding captive bolt stun guns.

If he reads this, I'm not looking to embarrass you AS, but just to have some grace in admitting what you post is not always correct. rather than just ignoring me.

……..

OK, just this once, and just for you; The brain size of all those animals which we slaughter, whether as meat for our consumption or not, when 'compared' with the size of the projectile which is a bullet or the retractable steel bolt which comes out of and returns to a captive bolt pistol, is really quite tiny, and the catastrophic injury caused by either entering the brain, is always and eventually fatal, accepting that the accuracy of the placing is adhered to. Animals which are slaughtered for meat are bled-out because were they not, then firstly the storage of such meat would be short lived and the meat itself wouldn't be palatable.

The fact that with an animal which is bled, the heart stops when the blood supply runs out and the pressure drops, is what hastens the final heartbeats. When an animal is shot, by either method, but it 'isn't' bled, death also follows, it's just that it's delayed, generally by a minute or so, but the end result is always the same. That is my experience, not following 'training' or reading the thoughts of others, but standing over animals which I have killed.

Explaining simple and one would imagine, easily digestible facts to you seems pointless, which is why I generally ignore your near seemingly permanent wish to contradict, and doing so whilst either lacking experience of the subject and/or being reliant upon google for your facts.

This really is my last word on the matter, and is only offered because of your instance upon a response.

Alec.

 

[alfiesowner]

I'd be interested to hear which Pack would release a Hound to a pet home. To subject any Hound to a domestic prison would be cruelty in the extreme.

Alec.

Yes, my pet Foxhound is clearly in much distress in his domestic life. Loves the couch, loves people, loves dogs, loves tracking and trail walks. Don't make such a generalised statement.

 

[Alec Swan]

Yes, my pet Foxhound is clearly in much distress in his domestic life. Loves the couch, loves people, loves dogs, loves tracking and trail walks. Don't make such a generalised statement.

Well if you were gifted a foxhound by a MH, there must be at the least, one Master who agrees with you!

Alec.

 

[alfiesowner]

Well if you were gifted a foxhound by a MH, there must be at the least, one Master who agrees with you!

Alec.

Foxhound Welfare also rehome several Foxhounds and while it can take time to find the right family they do so successfully.

Mine has never hunted. It's a bit of a mystery how we've managed to end up with one - he was sold as a puppy by a irresponsible breeder as a Beagle x Retriever and the original owners couldn't cope when he just kept on growing. We have since met several individuals involved in hunts and got advice from experts, all believing him to be a Foxhound. He may have a little something else in him, but we're not sure what.

I can respect rehoming a Foxhound after years upon years a member of the hunt, I can see how this is difficult. However rehoming after a year or two when they're not up to it or rehoming as a puppy, when found to be too weak or unsuitable for the hunt, is a possibility but isn't done. It's entirely different to a hound who has spent six or seven years in the hunt living as a part of the pack.

 

[Goldenstar]

So what is their job? Are they providing a necessary service like a police dog or a guide dog?

I have already said I'm far from an expert on hunting with hounds. Haven't been since way back in the mists of time when I was in the pony club - and would not do it now.

Then don't give it another thought .

 

[Dry Rot]

I haven't read the whole thread but if there is reincarnation, I want to come back as a hound in a pack rather than a designer dog living in a London flat.

I'd also prefer to be shot in kennels than dragged off to the vet at regular intervals to be dosed, doctored, and kept alive just to indulge my 'kind and caring' owner.

Better a short life and a merry one, with a quick clean end, than a long life full of misery.

 

[Birker2020]

My partners previous boss worked at one of the foot packs down in Oxford somewhere. My partner was living on his own before I met him and was very lonely and was offered an eight week old beagle bitch who was two inches too short at the shoulder to run with the pack and was going to be shot. Although her Mum was a very well bred and put to together bitch Candy was not so. My partner ended up having her and she lived until she was 14. She had a brilliant life, a life that would otherwise not have happened had she been shot as a puppy. Here are a couple of lovely photos of her.

She had already had her tattoos in her ear and her dew claws removed.

https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=22554&d=1395060389[/IMG]

 

[alfiesowner]

her dew claws removed.

What I wouldn't give for Alfie's dew claws to be removed!! He's too old now really and it will cause issues not to mention cost a lot, but man are his dew claws a pain (literally)