Alec Swan
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The indications that a dog is 'stressed' are all so often far more subtle than the indicator displayed by separation. It's all so often (and mostly) in their displays of how they deal with us.
Alec.
Hound 'culling'
- Thread starter Peter7917
- Start date
The indications that a dog is 'stressed' are all so often far more subtle than the indicator displayed by separation. It's all so often (and mostly) in their displays of how they deal with us.
Alec.
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
Most of them are flat bred Alec and Im just amazed at how chilled some of them are, some of them do ROR classes but they are happy hackers too.
LD&S
Well-Known Member
The list of stress indicators, those of which we should be aware, are near endless. Body Language (the dog's demeanour) matters. Tail carriage matters. Eye contact (or the lack of it) matters. Panting when the dog's been for a walk but hasn't exerted itself matters. A dog licking its lips, sometimes matters. Constant yawning always matters. Self harm (often breed specific) matters. Loose bowel movements can also be an indication of stress. The list is endless and I've only scratched the surface. When you travel a dog in a car and for a considerable time, do they sleep? Most dogs hate car travel, surprisingly, even though they happily jump in when asked.
Do you recognise the signs of 'stress' in a dog, or are you simply looking for an argument? Your turn.
Alec.
No not looking for an argument at all, just curious.
Yes I can recognise stress in a dog, especially my own that had the misfortune to be bred for greyhound racing, one of them was definitely abused by people, the other maybe not but still carries mental scars.
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chillipup
Well-Known Member
Yet again, Alec, you fail to answer a very simple and legitimate question. I'm asking, as a member of, as you describe, those that are 'unable, as most', unable to recognise the signs of an animal under stress by their demeanor and body language or indeed 'unhappiness' So please explain.. how do I tell ?....please describe what it is that they show. I'm not criticising, I'm asking for your explaination, to assist me and others, from an experts perspective, what it is we should be looking for.
OwnedbyJoe
Well-Known Member
Oh dear... My 2 Kelpies with their very strong drive to work sheep and my JRT with her very strong drive to hunt rats must suffer dreadfully then. Not sure anyone has told them they are suffering though as they seem quite content with a ball..
OwnedbyJoe
Well-Known Member
What...??! Sorry Alec, you are now officially on the "spouts rubbish" list! (Speaking as a vet with a special interest in behaviour and the daughter of a very prominent dog trainer). I'd suggest the only time not wanting to go for a walk is the sign of a stressed dog is when it is the WALK that stresses it...
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Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Most pure breed dogs were originally bred for a purpose though. Be that herding, garding or hunting etc.
A small percentage of them will actually be doing that job. Most will be pets.
Collies for instance, yes some of them will be farm dogs, herding sheep or cattle, but many more will be family pets.
I've never understood why foxhounds can not be kept as pets, but beagles and basset hounds can be.
A small percentage of them will actually be doing that job. Most will be pets.
Collies for instance, yes some of them will be farm dogs, herding sheep or cattle, but many more will be family pets.
I've never understood why foxhounds can not be kept as pets, but beagles and basset hounds can be.
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
There was a feature article in one of the country glossies not that long ago extolling the virtues of English setters as pets and saying how rare they had become. The article, as I recall, was mostly orientated towards promoting the breed as a working gundog.
But there are as many variations in specific gundog breeds that it is dangerous to generalise. The strain of working English setters I had were powerful workers. I would not boter to own one from a pet strain. Once they realised there was game out there, they became paranoid and if they got out, they'd be off hunting -- not just for an hour or two, but for the rest of the day! They would do anything to escape and could not even be trusted at exercise. A previous professional breeder used to sell puppies to pet homes on the clear understanding that he'd buy them back if they proved unsuitable for the same price. That way we got a lot of pups nicely reared and socialised ready for training at no cost! They were definitely not pet material! He'd then introduce them to game, export the ones that worked, and shoot the rest. That was back in the 40's and 50's and most of them went to the USA.
I'd suggest that that applies to a lot of working breeds. Some strains of working sheepdog, for example, become so frustrated in pet homes that they start working anything. There is at least one case on record of a dog that would herd chldren into a corner and then sit and guard them. If they moved, they'd be treated as a working dog would handle escaping sheep!
Yes, sometimes it can work. But it is plain stupidity to suggest that all working dogs make good pets and will happily integrate into the family home. It is not just the dog that will become stressed!
But there are as many variations in specific gundog breeds that it is dangerous to generalise. The strain of working English setters I had were powerful workers. I would not boter to own one from a pet strain. Once they realised there was game out there, they became paranoid and if they got out, they'd be off hunting -- not just for an hour or two, but for the rest of the day! They would do anything to escape and could not even be trusted at exercise. A previous professional breeder used to sell puppies to pet homes on the clear understanding that he'd buy them back if they proved unsuitable for the same price. That way we got a lot of pups nicely reared and socialised ready for training at no cost! They were definitely not pet material! He'd then introduce them to game, export the ones that worked, and shoot the rest. That was back in the 40's and 50's and most of them went to the USA.
I'd suggest that that applies to a lot of working breeds. Some strains of working sheepdog, for example, become so frustrated in pet homes that they start working anything. There is at least one case on record of a dog that would herd chldren into a corner and then sit and guard them. If they moved, they'd be treated as a working dog would handle escaping sheep!
Yes, sometimes it can work. But it is plain stupidity to suggest that all working dogs make good pets and will happily integrate into the family home. It is not just the dog that will become stressed!
Alec Swan
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Apart from wondering which side of the bed you got out of this morning, and why you need to be quite so aggressive, I'm also a little confused as to why you also seem to agree with my point! It remains my view that we need to be able to recognise stress, and the reason for it. What trips one dog's stress levels won't another, a bit like humans I suppose!
Alec.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I really think sometimes you just trawl through post and pick them to bits as a means of sport.Of
Of course it's legal! Unlike a free fire bullet firearm, the risk, in perhaps a built up area, over concrete/hard ground blah de blah, a captive bolt is both legal and preferred, due to safety reasons (possible ricochet) However, it is necessary to 'pith' the animal immediately, which they do. From what I recall from being reliably informed, they carry both a captive bolt and free fire bullet gun.
LOL
Some of us have more hands on experience and training
You do talk some total twaddle for somebody who professes to know my point was exactly the point that it is not legal within europe to use a captive bolt gun as a means of killing an animal. you can only use it to stun pre slaughter which is achieved by either severing major blood vessels or indeed pithing. I am sure the RSPCA would be very proactive in upholding that law so why state they had killed the dogs with captive bolt guns as you would need the dog under the same degree of control as you would to inject it so why did they not do that?
I would seriously love to know how many RSPCA officers carry free bullet pistols within the UK, I know the answer to that one however please go to them and ask.In all cases where a free bullet is needed they will call in either the police or specialist ie knackermen, Hunt (yes Hunt) or deer control experts.
I am indeed on this list for this area. I have yet to meet any RSPCA officers who are licenced to carry firearms. Its just what this country needs little white vans driving around for every criminal to know come and get you weapon here, get real!
However enough said as I am sure ive fabricated the lot of it so im sure you will put everybody else right on how things happen in Lala land.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Alec Swan
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It would probably be that those Beagles and Bassets which are in pet homes have been bred and for many generations as just that, pets. Were we to take a Beagle from a pack of hunted hounds, the likely result would probably have them as rooted to their 'immediate' past as most foxhounds would be. Just as with many of the guarding breeds, which have been bred, not to fulfil their previous roll but to be intended as pets.
Collies can be something of an anomaly in that there are many which are bred to work but show absolutely no interest in livestock at all and conversely, those which for generations have been bred as pets but which show a marked and natural herding instinct.
Alec.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I am not saying this to start an argument ,however on the whole only the horses the trainers think will be re trainable ever get offered out of racing and sadly this is a low percentage so the fact your success rate is high is not what could be achieved with the overall racing population.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
Sorry popsdosh but this isn't right. I've bought most of my ex racers straight off the track, still racing fit, some wearing plates, from the auctions. They all resold as general riding horses. Though one was a bit sharp and I was careful who she went to.
The trainers don't make the decision what happens to them. If the owner wants his money even the total nutters would go to auction. The 'sharp' one I bought had history of dumping her jockey before the start, and was certainly a handful to retrain, but we got there.
Alec, the reason so many are slaughtered is because the market for ex racers is dire and people like me have given up retraining them because we can't get enough money to justify the time and cost. There is a real prejudice against them, which is fuelled by people like you who don't know what good horses they make.
Before the days of passports, half the 'ID crosses' sold by dodgy dealers were OTTBs.
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ycbm
Overwhelmed
Well you are either talking twaddle yourself or splitting hairs Popsdosh. How can it be illegal to kill an animal using a captive bolt gun if it does not kill the animal?
Yes, you need to pith to ensure brain destruction. But it really is splitting hairs to argue with someone who says that dogs are killed with a captive bolt gun. I've had two horses done with one and pithed and both were good clean deaths.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
My initial point was the legality of using captive bolt to kill it(they are not designed to kill) cannot be used on its own as you are obviously aware .The obvious point from there was why did they not inject a dog as you need the same degree of control to effectively use a captive bolt gun. It was not me who was splitting hairs but those who said it was legal.
Did I get the firearms bit right maybe? So predictable its getting boring!
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Wagtail
Horse servant
Not true. How many ex racers have you trained? I have trained tens, some for myself, most for other people. I have sourced some direct from trainers, some from my friend who owns a large number of flat racers, some from people who have failed miserably to rehab them, and a couple straight from the field. Out of all of them, only one proved impossible to bring on as a regular riding horse (or a riding horse at all for that matter).
Incidentally, the best hacking horse I have ever had came straight out of steeple chasing aged 11. He was the trickiest to retrain, but turned out to be a fantastic happy hacker who could also do a nice dressage test.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I think you miss the point a lot of trainers are selective of what goes on to a second career there are many they know are unsuitable . Yes some owners do insist on sending them to the sales thats their choice however thats often the worse thing for that particular horse. How many times do we see the horror stories.
By the way as we used to breed TBs that we raced ourselves we have have had maybe a hundred(not all ours) over the years we have found other homes for some are still out there doing things ,however knowing our horses we know know the ones that can have a useful second career and those that wont ever settle. Some of those are still here doing the lawnmowing its probably 50-50
alliwantforchristmas
Well-Known Member
yes, I know ... I'm actually very familiar with dog body language and stress signals. I can assure you that these dogs were relaxed and happy animals, with a good quality of life who made their owners very happy. They showed no stress or anxiety in the house (the small body language signs such as tongue flicks, whale eye, yawning, "shake offs", low level avoidance or displacement behaviours). Their appetite was good, and they would engage in basic enrichment activities such as sniff and search games for food. They showed no fear on a walk - one had to be trained to pass dogs calmly as he was attacked by another dog at one point and started to show fear aggression, but with the use of a good dog trainer this was resolved positively and the dog is still, to this day, walked along the canal bank by both the owner and her dog walker, passing other dogs without fear or frustration. They all enjoyed good, loving relationships with their owners, interacting positively with them and showing engagment and, as previously mentioned, adored comfort and were relaxed and peaceful companions. The separation distress behaviour had very obvious triggers and was swiftly rectified with the re-homing of another greyhound to the same household. I think you need to take credit for the fact that it might just be that people other than yourself know things about dogs and dog behaviour. I find it very rude that you said of greyhounds "these, like many in their prison". Many of these dogs have excellent homes and if it wasn't for the energy and hard work of the people involved in rehoming these dogs they would be consigned to the scrap heap after a few races, in the majority of cases. Not everyone views animals as a disposable commodity the way that you seem to. Just because the way your neighbour keeps her dogs doesn't agree with you doesn't mean that greyhounds suffer in rehoming situations. If they are killing your stock you have every right to be annoyed, but then you need to speak to the neighbour, and not just tar all greyhounds and their owners with the same brush - and that would be the same for all dogs who are allowed to be out of control, not just greyhounds.
I'm not going to say much about the retraining of tbs but I should think that the percentage of horses successfully retrained is so low because the sheer amount of horses that are bred is so high that it would be impossible to find homes for all of them and so there is automatic 'wastage' in the industry. A truer picture would emerge if one knew the number of tbs taken for re-training each year and how successful that re-training was - with success being measured by a criteria such as 'whether the horse could engage in a productive activity be it hacking, riding club activities, or competition'. Again, I take my hat off to anyone who can give these horses another chance at a useful life and the opportunity to end up in a good home. We know it doesn't happen for all tbs, but then neither does it always work out wonderfully for any other breed of horse.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
That would only be a legitimate comparison if many of those going into the rehab system were not screened before they start. Godolphin have a very good rehab(PR) set up however the numbers they actual select as suitable is a small percentage of the horses in training . To get a fair picture of the percentage that can be retrained you need to take a representative sample for retraining from all racehorses.
The real sad thing for those that the owner decides to auction at all cost ,is they make so little money and end up in the hands of muppets who dont know what they are doing because its cheap way to get a horse. Before I get jumped on I dont mean those who know what they are doing and are prepared to take the risk.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
I really do think that virtually every ex-racer can be retrained to be a normal riding horse. With due respect, most people in the racing industry (including my friend) would have no idea how to retrain a racehorse to do normal riding activities as they are so different from racing, just as I would have little idea of how to train a racehorse. Who's to say that those horses that trainers deem to be unsuitable may just be that way because they don't like the racing regime? They may be totally different in a more relaxed, laid back atmosphere.
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popsdosh
Well-Known Member
So what do you do if your a trainer who knows your horses.Quite rightly they are selective and most know if they will be better off in a quieter environment. Do you just let them go to anybody because they might ? be better. I still say about 50% of a cross sample(not just those selected) of horses off the track could be rehabbed by an average competent rider.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Most think they know. But until you put a horse into an environment, you do not know for certain how they will react. I am constantly being surprised. Often the most flighty horse you'd expect to freak out at something doesn't and the one you least expect has a hissy fit. That's horses.
I have often had new liveries tell me their horse can be a nightmare to settle and to expect trouble for the first few weeks, then they arrive and they are as calm as anything and I have no trouble at all. Some of it's down to the atmosphere in a place and the handling.
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alliwantforchristmas
Well-Known Member
Do you mean that owners decide to auction even if the trainer doesn't think it's a good idea? Because if that is the case, there's your representative sample. Anyway, even if 50% can be rehomed successfully, or more with careful screening, it is a good percentage and means it's worth doing, rather than just writing them off like some posters on here seem to think is ok.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Yes indeed! However I hope you will agree its about risk management where the horse comes first. Knowing who is having them is part of that.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Yes of course they do owners do all sorts of things trainers dont think is a good idea most famously KS and his dressage career! Not many would say the trainer was wrong.
As you pointed out are there really enough capable homes!! to take that number of horses so trainers need to be selective and make a judgement on those that have the best chance . I personally believe every horse should have its best chance ! however its a judgement call of whats best for the horses long term future!
alliwantforchristmas
Well-Known Member
totally agree - (I guess you mean there aren't enough capable homes). Even if ALL the horses were deemed suitable for rehoming, they would simply flood an already saturated market and have more horses ending up in a mess.