how do you get a horse into an outline???

[JFTDWS]

I agree she looks tense and overall is not pleasing on the eye

In this pic, her outline is not pleasing to the eye, no, but she is generally very pleasing to the eye regardless

 

[Caol Ila]

TuscanBunnyGirl,

Sorry, she! People call my horse "he" all the time as well, lol!

Make sure the horse is working forward, off the leg, and pushing with her hind end. Lots of transitions. And hills, if you have them. I noticed in all your pics, you seem to be tipping forward slightly with your upper body. Work on sitting up straighter while staying relaxed through your back, as a rider falling forward or being really stiff in their back will tip the horse onto its forehand. I know I need to work on this too, but perhaps bring your hands a little bit more forward. So tempting to keep them back by the pommel of the saddle, but they should be slightly in front of it. The good news is that your elbows look soft and bent. A lot of leaning horses seem to develop the habit from stiff-elbowed, bracy riders, but that does not seem to be you.

 

[Armas]

Just nipped back and found it. Thanks.
Agree on all points (except knee gripping), especially impulsion.
This is his favourite part of a dressage test.

And his preferred activity

Applying himself is not high on his priority list (except when hunting)

PS this is him 3 months prior to that event (his first).

PPS he wasn't really as fat as he looked in the pic. This is him at the trot up on the same day.

Nice horse I am surprised you have not been harangued by the H&H Femme fatale's lol

 

[JFTDWS]

Nice horse I am surprised you have not been harangued by the H&H Femme fatale's lol

Oh he has

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

In this pic, her outline is not pleasing to the eye, no, but she is generally very pleasing to the eye regardless

haha i shall deliver her to you then

TuscanBunnyGirl,

Sorry, she! People call my horse "he" all the time as well, lol!

Make sure the horse is working forward, off the leg, and pushing with her hind end. Lots of transitions. And hills, if you have them. I noticed in all your pics, you seem to be tipping forward slightly with your upper body. Work on sitting up straighter while staying relaxed through your back, as a rider falling forward or being really stiff in their back will tip the horse onto its forehand. I know I need to work on this too, but perhaps bring your hands a little bit more forward. So tempting to keep them back by the pommel of the saddle, but they should be slightly in front of it. The good news is that your elbows look soft and bent. A lot of leaning horses seem to develop the habit from stiff-elbowed, bracy riders, but that does not seem to be you.

no worries! She is very much a she
I'll keep this as brief as pos.. a lil background - I got her at 4yrs, she was owned by a man who used her for galloping around wherever he wanted, had her in foal at 2..she wasn't taught to go off the leg, only a whip on the shoulder, she has always seemed 'fussy' in the mouth, teeth checked...although where i live there isn't such thing as a 'saddle fitter' etc so never had anyone to check her saddle..only my amateur knowledge. so it's always in the back of my mind that something may be hurting her which is why she's resisting etc. we've moving over to the uk end of the month so will have allll checks done

Thank you so much for your help really appreciated
I have an awful position at the moment, i have been without an instructor for 2 years
Will definitely take your advice and work on me which will hopefully help her a lot more

 

[PaddyMonty]

Oh he has

Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat.

 

[Caol Ila]

Working back a few pages (I am catching up on bits of this thread):

JFTD, Armas, and Lucyad: I think all of you guys should bend your elbows and lift your hands an inch or three higher. Think about creating a straight line from the horse's mouth to your elbow. If the line from mouth to elbow is broken, say by your elbow being straight and your hand being down, it's a lot harder, if not impossible, to create a soft connection to their mouth. Also, if your elbow is straight, it is physically impossible to follow the movement of your horse's head and this will create a brace in both you and the horse. The elbow should be soft and elastic. When I'm having a good day where I don't suck, I think of my elbows being connected to my core and my seat and that is what influences the movement of the horse, while the hands just hang out there and hold the reins. To give a half-half say, I won't think of pulling with the hands, but rather increasing the connection between elbows, core, and seat, and very slightly, for like a stride, stopping the movement in my elbows.

 

[JFTDWS]

Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat.

Or some might say, they are now lulling you into a false sense of security before the next assault...

 

[rhino]

Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine. Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'. Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going. Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!

Thankfully this was pointed out by others, but really? 'Appalled' For someone that has 'no fluffy bunnies' in their signature, that's a pretty fluffy bunny thing to say.

Yes, how appalling that people are willing to post photos, generally knowing that they are not great, to attempt to improve their riding and their horse's way of going...

- general comment -

Not all of us have horsey families. Not all of us rode as children, and had lesson after lesson from the best, or access to well schooled horses and ponies. Some of us are trying bloody hard to get better given what we do have...

Why the concentration on the horse? Well, I think I was probably mostly responsible for that, as I stated I find the link between conformation and movement really interesting as a geeky scientist. I'm NOT an instructor, never have I pretended to be one. I've no ideas about the others, although would love to have a lesson from Wagtail, instructor or not. Not only do I agree with virtually all her assessments, I think she would be someone who would inspire confidence as well as improve horse and rider, much preferable to me than the 'old school' type who do nothing but criticise, often without being able to demonstrate their apparent superiority.

What I have tried to do is be constructive, as I think a great many people learn from threads such as this - I know I do.

I'm not the OP, but please could we keep this thread positive, as the vast majority has been If giving suggestions can you also explain why the suggestion should work; nothing more annoying than being told to do something - lift hands/chin/leg forward/back without the reason being explained.

 

[rhino]

Thankfully they have now moved on to fresher meat.

Or some might say, they are now lulling you into a false sense of security before the next assault...

 

[Wagtail]

Rare pic of me doing stressage stuff
Do your worst.

I'm afraid I can't falt that picture at all, PM. I would be very happy with myself if I were you. Horse is making a very pleasing round shape with plenty of impulsion (lovely hind leg) and going into his back into a soft, light contact. Lovely! Ears ar back, but I think it is more that the horse is paying attention to you than unhappiness.

 

[Wagtail]

Pearlsaginger - thankyou Some of the comments have made me want to bang my head on a wall as to where on earth people have picked up these ideas and think theyre correct I dont agree with everything Wagtail has said though, for eg in Aramas pic its not long and low so much as leaning on the bit in an attempt to relieve the pressure on the bars of its mouth from the tractor hands of the rider but hey ho

How dare you! No I actually agree with you. I was trying to be nice because he was saying the outline was long and low. I meant that was what he was aiming for. The horse was not actually in a long low outline.

 

[PaddyMonty]

I'm afraid I can't falt that picture at all, PM. I would be very happy with myself if I were you. Horse is making a very pleasing round shape with plenty of impulsion (lovely hind leg) and going into his back into a soft, light contact. Lovely! Ears ar back, but I think it is more that the horse is paying attention to you than unhappiness.

Thanks but I fear you are being too kind.
My main issue with the pic is I have allowed myself to collapse to the left slightly and drop my inside hand low. My weight has moved to the outside (due to collapse at hip) thereby restricting the horses impulsion whilst it has to counteract my poor balance. The lowered left hand will also be resticting the movement of the inside shoulder so whilst the hind is coming through the front cant match it.

 

[Wagtail]

I posted these a while back, I wonder if anyone other that rhino would care to comment.

Ok, JFTD. There is not a lot wrong with the pair of you. You do, However appear to sit quite heavy in that you fix your hands somewhat and hold tension in your neck rather than stretching upwards and raising your chin instead of looking down. Sitting taller and prouder, and carrying your hands more will lighten your seat. Your pony appears to have plenty of impulsion and is not overbent or leaning which is good.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Thankfully this was pointed out by others, but really? 'Appalled' For someone that has 'no fluffy bunnies' in their signature, that's a pretty fluffy bunny thing to say.

Yes, how appalling that people are willing to post photos, generally knowing that they are not great, to attempt to improve their riding and their horse's way of going...

- general comment -

Not all of us have horsey families. Not all of us rode as children, and had lesson after lesson from the best, or access to well schooled horses and ponies. Some of us are trying bloody hard to get better given what we do have...

Why the concentration on the horse? Well, I think I was probably mostly responsible for that, as I stated I find the link between conformation and movement really interesting as a geeky scientist. I'm NOT an instructor, never have I pretended to be one. I've no ideas about the others, although would love to have a lesson from Wagtail, instructor or not. Not only do I agree with virtually all her assessments, I think she would be someone who would inspire confidence as well as improve horse and rider, much preferable to me than the 'old school' type who do nothing but criticise, often without being able to demonstrate their apparent superiority.

What I have tried to do is be constructive, as I think a great many people learn from threads such as this - I know I do.

I'm not the OP, but please could we keep this thread positive, as the vast majority has been If giving suggestions can you also explain why the suggestion should work; nothing more annoying than being told to do something - lift hands/chin/leg forward/back without the reason being explained.

Sorry Rhino, I simply don't understand your first comment. I have been appalled at the positions of some riders in their photos and amazed that they feel that they should post such photos of themselves, because although they were inviting criticism, they really should have been able to see for themselves their major faults. Littlelegs, actually explained my thinking better than I could.
This comment will go down in history on my calendar, as I don't think I've ever been called 'fluffy' before, in any aspect of my life.

As for the last part of your post. I don't understand that either. I commented on JFTD's hands and chin position and explained that if she corrected them, her horse would be able to lift his back and become rounder. The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them. You may have noticed that before JFTD, who expressly asked for comments, immediately after commenting on my post, I had only commented on 2 photos, both extremely positive comments about the riders.
I did express my surprise that the VAST majority of comments were about the horses, rather than the riders, which led me to believe that many commentators did not understand the link between rider position and horse's way of going.
There are many beautiful horses and ponies on this thread, a few well-ridden.

 

[redmone]

Your daughter has a lovely position. Looking at the pony I suspect that flexing at the poll is not the most easy thing for her as she is quite thick through the throat area. I can see just by looking at her that she will not be the easiest pony to get into a nice working outline. You may think it strange when I say that IMO your daughter is riding with her reins too short, as actually the pony is poking her nose and working in a very strung out outline, and so the natural thing to do is shorten the reins. However, this often just compounds the issue. Look at the lovely bottom photograph. Your daughters reins are actually a good three inches longer and she is nicely taking up the contact by bringing her elbows back. Imagine how much nicer for the horse this feeling is, than a straight, blocking arm? In that photograph, the pony is in a pelham which has poll action and would have helped your daughter to get her to flex. Obviously, it would be nice to get her to do this in a snaffle, but using the pelham occasionally, will allow your daughter to feel what it is like and this will help her achieve the same thing in a snaffle.

Thanks for taking the time to have a look. I can see what you mean about the reins when comparing the photos - it's not the way round you would think is it! I'm lucky she's got such good instructors - I wouldn't know where to start honestly!!!

She struggles to get anything like the bottom photo in the snaffle, but we're good at this patience lark and we'll get there!! She only now uses the pelham for jumping (with roundings and single reins) so I was surprised when a judge said she should have had it on, but that's probably a whole separate thread!

It's hard with children isn't it! No disrespect meant to daughter, but sort of seems like blind leading the blind! Daughter struggles to understand what to do (and when she gets one thing right another thing goes wrong!) and pony probably hasn't done much of this before so can't really help her out!

Thanks for your lovely comment about her position

 

[nikicb]

The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them.

I don't think you need to tell everyone they are wonderful, but there are ways and means of giving development points in a positive manner. I would be interested in what you think of my photos, in the context of what I have written above them as well as my response below to Wagtail.

Thank you.

 

[redmone]

littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it. It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists. Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going. That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed. I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.

Bet it was my photos that messed the thread up!......

Sorry if it was!

 

[nikicb]

Bet it was my photos that messed the thread up!......

Sorry if it was!

I don't think it was.

 

[redmone]

Hi Rhino!

Would you mind popping back to page 21 (on my PC) and giving your thoughts on D+D? You always seem to have their number!

Thankies if you do

 

[rhino]

Sorry Rhino, I simply don't understand your first comment.

The main reason that I have not commented on the majority of the pics is that I would find it difficult to be positive about many of them.

My posts don't always make much sense to anyone but me (and not always even then!)

Fair enough. Coming in as a teacher, I suppose it would be the same as me 'being appalled' at how little children know when they come to me... Not a helpful way of looking at it IMO. I'm guessing quite a lot of the posters know their faults, but having a 2nd and 3rd hand opinion never hurts I haven't seen anything appalling on here, what I have seen is a variety of different people and horses in various stages of schooling and awareness. Some will have had the benefit of good instruction, some bad instruction, and some, like me and JFTD, very little instruction indeed

2nd part not directly aimed at you - I even added the 'general comment' in an edit as I didn't want you to think the entire post was aimed at you. It wasn't, but I feel this thread is becoming quite a valuable learning tool, even if the comment is not made directly to you! Think quite a few of us have some homework to do now

I do find it sad that you couldn't find any way of being positive about the majority of photos though

 

[redmone]

I don't think it was.

Phew!!! ***mops brow***!

They just came out a bit, well, BIG!!!!!!!

Am loving this thread! I'm guessing what opinion is going to be on each photo, not doing brilliant to be honest, but having fun on my lunchtime!

 

[Lucyad]

Working back a few pages (I am catching up on bits of this thread):

JFTD, Armas, and Lucyad: I think all of you guys should bend your elbows and lift your hands an inch or three higher. Think about creating a straight line from the horse's mouth to your elbow. If the line from mouth to elbow is broken, say by your elbow being straight and your hand being down, it's a lot harder, if not impossible, to create a soft connection to their mouth. Also, if your elbow is straight, it is physically impossible to follow the movement of your horse's head and this will create a brace in both you and the horse. The elbow should be soft and elastic. When I'm having a good day where I don't suck, I think of my elbows being connected to my core and my seat and that is what influences the movement of the horse, while the hands just hang out there and hold the reins. To give a half-half say, I won't think of pulling with the hands, but rather increasing the connection between elbows, core, and seat, and very slightly, for like a stride, stopping the movement in my elbows.

Good description, like the idea of thinking of the connection not being to do with hands, but core. I often get told to 'carry' my hands more in lessons, but it is difficult as unless I concentrate I tend to get lazy and drop them onto the horse's neck, turning them round to be 'pram' hands, rather than thumbs on top.

 

[xRobyn]

Robyn, your horse is a little on the forehand, as you say, but not awful and heading in the right direction. I'm sure you'll get back to how you were before his injury, if he has made a full recovery. It just takes time.

Thank you

Really loely boy you have! He is nice and foreward and tracking up well. Your position is pretty good and not hindering him in any way. Keep up the good work. I suspects using plenty of transitions and half halts will lighten him up in front, but generally you make a very pleasing picture for novice level.

This comment had me grinning from ear to ear Neither of us have ever had any lessons together which I'd like to change over Christmas, but I'm glad to hear you like him

 

[redmone]

I do find it sad that you couldn't find any way of being positive about the majority of photos though

I'm chuffed that Daughter and Dolly got a comment

(sorry!)

 

[Wagtail]

Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?

Agree with these comments. Elsazzo, sorry, I did not realise you were looking for CC as I thought you were posting in direct response to the OP regarding outline. Your horse is going forwards nicely but has become a bit 'strung out'. The contact looks very 'wooden' as though your horse is not submissive to the aids and is coming against your hand. You need to get (her?) back on her hocks by sitting up more and taking the contact back a tad. She may need a half halt here and there to get her attention and lighten her up. You already have the impulsion and the front end is almost, but not quite there.

 

[Caol Ila]

Good description, like the idea of thinking of the connection not being to do with hands, but core. I often get told to 'carry' my hands more in lessons, but it is difficult as unless I concentrate I tend to get lazy and drop them onto the horse's neck, turning them round to be 'pram' hands, rather than thumbs on top.

Lucy, is he heavy up front? Looks like he might be. He looks like a larger version of my horse, who used to lean like a freight train when I first got her and now doesn't. Leaning on the hand is a pretty natural reaction, especially for these drafts and draft-crosses, when they don't know how to balance themselves with their hind end. The rider will lean back and you'll have horse and rider feeding into each other's stiff and bracey habits. If this sounds like you, think about riding the horse super forward and keeping your hands light as I explained in my earlier post. If your hands are dropped onto the neck, that will tip your whole balance forward and make it even harder for the horse to carry himself behind. There are wee tricks to help break this habit. For example, I spent a while riding around balancing a whip horizontally across my wrists. If my hands dropped, I'd lose the whip! Silly stuff like that can help.

 

[rhino]

Hi Rhino!

Would you mind popping back to page 21 (on my PC) and giving your thoughts on D+D? You always seem to have their number!

Thankies if you do

There are far more experienced folks than me about now, so I've very little to add

You and your instructors have, quite rightly, spent the last couple of years (Still don't believe it is 2 years!) making the lovely Dolly go sweetly, calmly and safely. What this can do is lose some of the real power of the paces, and lose the natural rhythm. She really is a 'tank' of a pony conformationally, and the difference is remarkable.

I think now your daughter is ready to be asking for a little bit more from Dolly, she is certainly more confident and I think more able to cope with Dolly's power. Just simple things like insisting on a reaction when she puts her leg on will ensure Dolly is paying attention to her. Does she do any lateral work (leg yielding, shoulder in, even turn on the forehand) in lessons? That all helps develop flexibility, and will allow your daughter to be able to feel when Dolly is working straight and really swinging through with that powerful trot and canter she has. I think your daughter has developed a nice secure position (which really shows in her jumping) and I think your instructor is doing a good job. Personally I have no issue at all with pelhams or double bridles in good hands Does miniRM get much chance to ride other horses or ponies at all?

 

[Caol Ila]

Did I get lost? I'd love a critique (I have a view of what's wrong, but second and third opinions are nice, especially as I haven't had a lesson in six years). Page 27, I think.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks but I fear you are being too kind.
My main issue with the pic is I have allowed myself to collapse to the left slightly and drop my inside hand low. My weight has moved to the outside (due to collapse at hip) thereby restricting the horses impulsion whilst it has to counteract my poor balance. The lowered left hand will also be resticting the movement of the inside shoulder so whilst the hind is coming through the front cant match it.

If you can see all that from one photograph taken from a low profile then you should be doing some CC on this thread . I can see your left hand lowered but not your collapsed hip or that your weight is to the outside from this angle. Is it that you are aware of your faults and therefore can spot them because you know you were doing them at the time? Impulsion looks fine to me, though after what you have told me, maybe your horse was a tad unhappy, hence the ears? Still looks a very pleasing picture compared with some people that I teach!