how do you get a horse into an outline???

JFTD - You did indeed comment on your low hands. However I didn't notice any reference to your chin/head.


As I said previously any-one can take on board my comments or ignore them as they please.

I quite agree that the over-sized photos are unbelievably annoying and make the thread almost impossible to read.
 
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Intersting thread that's kept me occupied for at least half an hour whilst at work :D

Some of peoples ideas of correct outline are interesting and very indicative of the poorly educted 'if it's nose it tucked in, it's in an outline' commonly seen.

This is an interesting picture and I'd be interested to see what others think of it:

This isn't me riding but his novice,slightly nervous sharer. It's typical of his hind-end activily (when not being allowed to slope along) but also his head carriage. I'd prefer went like this, which his head up, than bum trailing behind him but his head pretty! Now the backend is working we can work on his headcarraige a bit more.
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And his other sharer: These are taken a couple of strides apart: the second one's face is because he's just had his bum smacked for being lazy with his backend!
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And a picture of a huge-moving horse doing naff all with his backend. Head is tuck in a 'pretty' shape but bum is trailing somewhere in space and hind legs aren't doing much at all.
417669_10151358203505437_1128505667_n.jpg


And just 5mins later, after getting the hang of him: she's never ridden him before and he's NOT easy to ride well. It's still a long way from perfect but much better.
426478_10151358206780437_1942207752_n.jpg


Having looked through my albums I can't belive I have only 3 shots of me riding Piper in movement other than jumping! One is at a gallop and the other two are poor quality!
 
JFTD said:
Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions. Thanks.
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At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored :p
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, please make sure it is in focus so we can read what it says :mad:
 
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PaddyMonty said:
At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored :p
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, plase make sue it is in focus so we can read what it says :mad:
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PaddyMonty I will have a look at your pic & try & give a CC as mine too has been ignored....I'll go find yours :)
 
TigerTail said:
JFTD - You can see your bareback history in that you actually have the ability to ride with a decent leg length and arent hampered by a short psoas muscle which is what so many people struggle with. From the pics, and its diff without vid to say for sure, it looks like you dont have independent hands. So if you were one of my pupils you'd be doing a lot with no reins and then one rein etc until you can separate your arms from the rest of you. You've obviously spotted the curling hand on one of the pics, then we go to them being together on his withers and then tractor hands. Id suggest you've had an instructor getting you to carry your hands all over the place to try and achieve an outline artificially :o You also need to remember to turn your little toes down so your feet stay forwards not in ballet first position :) hope thts somewhat helpful.
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Thanks TT. Very interesting and helpful.

You're completely right in those faults, I think. However I think your reasoning is slightly flawed :o I've never had any instructor, I certainly wouldn't entertain one who encouraged me to hold / fiddle the pony into an outline - though it's probable that I've picked up the same habits by default from lacking an instructor, rather than having a rubbish one!

I spent most of my youth riding bareback, without reins/bridle or hacking on the buckle, carrying cups of water without spilling it (popular game as a teen :D ) etc so I think my hands are reasonably independent - which is 100 times worse as it means that I am chosing to put my hands in all these stupid positions! I think the reason I drop them down in the last pics is to maintain a contact because I let the reins slide through my hands and become too long - does that sound plausible? The awful errant left hand in the second pic was me trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge, rather than setting him up to bring his shoulders in from my legs / seat :o

Well spotted on the toe front - I hadn't noticed that!
 
PaddyMonty said:
At least you got some comments. my pic has been completely ignored :p
Two important points from me.....
1) Watch your outside leg doesn't shoot forward when your inside leg moves back
2) if you post a pic wearing a shirt with writing on it, please make sure it is in focus so we can read what it says :mad:
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Sorry I don't feel qualified to comment on yours :o

Yes, very annoying swingy outside leg overcompensating. I'm aware I do it, but hadn't spotted it in that pic, thanks! Horrible habit!

The shirt is a BHS "Think before you breed" one from their campaign against indiscriminate breeding :) I'm wearing it now too :D
 
PaddyMonty, you both look great. Your position is nice & your seat light :) I dont think its the most flattering pic of your horse as its taken at an awkward 'moment' if you know what I mean. He'she looks a bit tense & not particularly forward but its just a moment in time. Looked like you were riding nicely :)
 
elsazzo said:
perhaps this is a better example of our trot......

ute.jpg
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Elsazzo, since you're being ignored I'll have a go and "do" your second pic. It's a bit blurry, but I THINK you are a bit "piano hands" in this one, always better to have thumbs on top and knuckles facing each other. Horse is going on well with good engagement, not all curled up in front and not above or too "down" on the contact (quite a lot of the pics on this thread are the former....). You have a nice relaxed back and draping leg.
 
JFTD said:
Thanks TT. Very interesting and helpful.

You're completely right in those faults, I think. However I think your reasoning is slightly flawed :o I've never had any instructor, I certainly wouldn't entertain one who encouraged me to hold / fiddle the pony into an outline - though it's probable that I've picked up the same habits by default from lacking an instructor, rather than having a rubbish one!

I spent most of my youth riding bareback, without reins/bridle or hacking on the buckle, carrying cups of water without spilling it (popular game as a teen :D ) etc so I think my hands are reasonably independent - which is 100 times worse as it means that I am chosing to put my hands in all these stupid positions! I think the reason I drop them down in the last pics is to maintain a contact because I let the reins slide through my hands and become too long - does that sound plausible? The awful errant left hand in the second pic was me trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge, rather than setting him up to bring his shoulders in from my legs / seat :o

Well spotted on the toe front - I hadn't noticed that!
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Ah they just seem so typical of the hand styles often taught now to achieve an outline I generalised :o Do you have someone who can lunge you? Just practice your transitions and gaits with no reins then with one and see if it throws anything up, its amazing the bad habits we all get into! Um possible on the reins sliding through fingers, but Id expect you (from your others posts and pics u seem capable!) to know this is happening and block it with your fingers. When you say you were trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge do you mean to stop him falling in on the circle? You could raise your inside hand slightly (thumbs on top) to support the inside shoulder, making sure ur hands return to neutral after. May have misunderstood that though!


PADDYMONTY I COMMENTED ON YOUR PIC ON PG 23!!! Dont feel left out chuck :D
 
Cortez said:
Well, I'll give you my 2 ha pennyworth. Lovely highland (I am presuming?), not being too bothered by your not-exactly "horrendous" hands - you are suffering from "magnetic pommel" syndrome, where the hand, usually the inside one, is irresistibly attracted by and becomes stuck to the front of the saddle, or the thigh in extreme cases. This is bad, of course, as the contact is then fixed and cannot release or give. It is also bad because you then tip forwards and your back becomes tense and fixed also. Very common fault, cured by sitting on your ar*e (this is a technical term used by RI's the world over), carrying your hands & loosening all the joints from your wrists to your shoulders. Your horse doesn't seem to mind too much, 'though :-)
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Thank you. He is indeed a highland, and very lovely (though I admit I am very biased there!). See that is great cc - a good point, well made, but humorously put, and as a result, well taken :D I shall endeavour to de-magnetise my pommel, sit on my arse and loosen the entire length of my arms henceforth! :D

elsazzo said:
JFTD- No expert here but my friendly advice would be to give your arms'wrists a good shake out as they look very tense (as you are aware)elbows at sides & forget whats going on with the front end of your horse and try and sit a bit lighter in your seat.....as my instructor told me 'sit as if your sitting in a dirty nappy and you dont really want to sit on it' LOL......yukky but it helps!! :D
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Is this conflicting advise with cortez who thinks I should sit on my arse more?! I tend to vary between sitting down, sitting light, sitting forward and sitting slightly back during a session, since it majorly affects the pony's way of going (by which I mean I vary it depending on what I'm asking for - stretchy work I sit light, collection I sit deep, medium work sitting back slightly - I don't know if this is truly correct, but it seems to go down well with my pony!).

Yep hands and arms do get very tense, especially when he's in the field (he'd much rather sod off than ponce around) and I fail to remember to soften. Very good point indeed. Thanks :)
 
Cortez said:
Elsazzo, since you're being ignored I'll have a go and "do" your second pic. It's a bit blurry, but I THINK you are a bit "piano hands" in this one, always better to have thumbs on top and knuckles facing each other. Horse is going on well with good engagement, not all curled up in front and not above or too "down" on the contact (quite a lot of the pics on this thread are the former....). You have a nice relaxed back and draping leg.
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Waaayheeey!! I got a comment! Thanks Cortez :D:D

Thanks for the CC- although If you dont mind me saying I think its just the fuzziness thats giving the impression of piano hands as its something Im really not guilty of as I actually find it really hard to ride without thumbs on top for some reason!! I have much better quality pics on page 22 (i think) which would probably be easier to CC! :D
 
TigerTail said:
Ah they just seem so typical of the hand styles often taught now to achieve an outline I generalised :o Do you have someone who can lunge you? Just practice your transitions and gaits with no reins then with one and see if it throws anything up, its amazing the bad habits we all get into! Um possible on the reins sliding through fingers, but Id expect you (from your others posts and pics u seem capable!) to know this is happening and block it with your fingers. When you say you were trying to pull his neck and shoulders away from the edge do you mean to stop him falling in on the circle? You could raise your inside hand slightly (thumbs on top) to support the inside shoulder, making sure ur hands return to neutral after. May have misunderstood that though!
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Not sure I'd trust the pony on the lunge - riderless he thinks it's a good excuse for serious misbehaviour :D But I will happily ride without reins in the school so can give it a go...

Oh no you seriously misjudge me - I'm hopelessly thick and my fingers don't obey my brain's orders :( I regularly get round sj courses without any grip on the reins at all, holding the buckle and desperately trying to shorten up between each fence!

I think my intention was to hold him shoulder fore (I think it was an attempt at baby canter SI, though I might be mistaken). He's not actually on a circle there :o

Thanks for your comments :)
 
JFTD - sorry didnt mean to confuzzle you! :D

I was refering to the 1st pic where u seem to be sitting heavily on your seat (driving seat) it is possible to sit on your bum and do so lightly at the same time....just do the old nappy trick as I suggested before & looking forwards with helps this too :)
 
Actually jftd, I do think its relevant to this thread. Because if the way the majority of riders were taught as beginners & at very novice level changed, I suspect we wouldn't encounter so many problems with horses not working correctly. Of course no horse & rider will ever be perfect, everyone has their weaknesses. But even taking adorable alices pic, the issues with the horse stem from previous rider, & there's plenty of posts saying similar, so I do believe there's plenty of proof, for want of a better word, that if we focused more on the rider than the horse, many of the problems wouldn't occur in the first place, & those that did would in the main be minor.
Thanks pearlsasinger, I saw where you were coming from & didn't read it as meaning to insult anyone.
 
elsazzo said:
Great thread :) TrOuble- in my opinion yours in the best example of a nice 'outline' so far :D

heres a couple of my pics. I know she can (& does!) go much better but this was my first ever show & I was a bit nervous/preoccupied!!



Untitled-Copy.png


I know shes a bit flat on this one but I think it demonstrates that she is moving 'forwards'....

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Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?
 
TigerTail said:
PADDYMONTY I COMMENTED ON YOUR PIC ON PG 23!!! Dont feel left out chuck :D
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Just nipped back and found it. Thanks.
Agree on all points (except knee gripping), especially impulsion. :o
This is his favourite part of a dressage test.
Picture048.jpg


And his preferred activity
TNT-POLE23-7-08044.jpg


Applying himself is not high on his priority list (except when hunting) :rolleyes:

PS this is him 3 months prior to that event (his first).
Lesson3.jpg


PPS he wasn't really as fat as he looked in the pic. This is him at the trot up on the same day.
MK3DEDay1044.jpg
 
TBG, I won't offer cc on the ridden pics as there are better qualified people than me. However, regarding the lunging photo, in my opinion, I would not class that as a particularly pleasing outline, no. Pony's hindlegs are trailing, not tracking up and lacking forwardness and power, the neck looks tense and rather forced. The poll is not the highest point, giving the "broken" look 6" behind the ears.

Lovely horse though :)
 
Would I class the 3rd pic as a "good" outline? I would not. Look at the horse's back / loin area - hollow, no? Whole picture says " I am pulling up, against this rein thingy" and not "I am happily working hand-in-hand (well, mouth-on-rein really) and comfortably giving to the rein". Did he get better after this moment?
 
littlelegs said:
Actually jftd, I do think its relevant to this thread. Because if the way the majority of riders were taught as beginners & at very novice level changed, I suspect we wouldn't encounter so many problems with horses not working correctly. Of course no horse & rider will ever be perfect, everyone has their weaknesses. But even taking adorable alices pic, the issues with the horse stem from previous rider, & there's plenty of posts saying similar, so I do believe there's plenty of proof, for want of a better word, that if we focused more on the rider than the horse, many of the problems wouldn't occur in the first place, & those that did would in the main be minor.
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But LL, nobody on this thread is a novice considering what method of teaching we should pursue?! We're all making do with what we've got and trying to build on that.

Absolutely, for the next generation of riders, for every novice starting out now, I completely agree that the current methods of teaching are not ideal, not by a long chalk. If we could revolutionise teaching methods, these threads wouldn't exist in 10 years time, maybe. But how does that remotely affect anyone on this thread?!
 
Cortez said:
Right, these are better. You are right, no piano hands here, but I think your wrists are a bit "awkward" as in stiff, and in the second pic you have dropped your shoulders (people often do this when they are trying to be soft and give, but you should give with the elbows first, for this very reason - "shoulders back; boobs up!"). Your lower leg is consistently stable and in the right place, thus your back is soft and able to absorb movement. I like your horse's way of going - he has an active step under and isn't curling behind the contact. What's he like on a snaffle?
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Thanks muchly :D

glad we cleared that up about the hands haha ;)

Yes, Im not sure what happened in the 2nd pic! my foot has also slipped through my stirrup too far :S My horse has a tendancy to power on into extended trot and I think I was trying to get her to keep a lid on it haha!.... Shes a very strong mare in both body & mind & we have a variety of bits (similar ones but slightly different to keep her listening) & i tend to swap them around regulalry on RI sdvice. She is currently schooled/jumped/hacked in a french link loose ring & goes lovely in it :) She only wears a pelham for showing. This was my first ever show and I had only been learning to use the 2 reins that week so that may explain why my wrists are a bit stiff looking.
 
This has been a really fun thread to read.

I acquired some bad habits when I first started riding that I've never been able to get rid of, mainly a dodgy lower leg. I took dressage lessons regularly for about a decade, but it doesn't seem to have fixed it.

So I've always that my equitation is atrocious, which is a bit of a shame as I think my horse has far more potential than she ever gets to show off given she's carting about an eejit on her back. As I'd like to know what others think, here are a couple pics. Critique away, but be nice!

photo.jpg


Bareback:

Photo211.jpg


IMAG0055.jpg


IMAG0059.jpg
 
Cortez said:
Would I class the 3rd pic as a "good" outline? I would not. Look at the horse's back / loin area - hollow, no? Whole picture says " I am pulling up, against this rein thingy" and not "I am happily working hand-in-hand (well, mouth-on-rein really) and comfortably giving to the rein". Did he get better after this moment?
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Yes she did :)
I was just wondering as some people thought it was a nice picture. I agree. I don't think she looks comfortable. but...her poll is her 'highest' point.. she's coming up behind however, she wasn't pulling against it. I put it on to see if it would encourage her to come lower if anyone was wondering :) and it did after she became used to it :)
Thanks for your input :D
 
Re: the grey horse in the pics above mine:

In the lunging pic, he looks completely hollow through the back even though he's putting his nose down. In the beach pic, he looks more relaxed, but very on the forehand and not through his back. He looks best in the top pic. In the second one, he also looks slightly on his forehand.
 
Caol Ila said:
Re: the grey horse in the pics above mine:

In the lunging pic, he looks completely hollow through the back even though he's putting his nose down. In the beach pic, he looks more relaxed, but very on the forehand and not through his back. He looks best in the top pic. In the second one, he also looks slightly on his forehand.
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thanks for your reply!
I agree about the lunging pic :)

she is built very on the forehand and trying to get her 'up' is a nightmare :/
any suggestions would be fab :D
 
JFTD said:
TBG, I won't offer cc on the ridden pics as there are better qualified people than me. However, regarding the lunging photo, in my opinion, I would not class that as a particularly pleasing outline, no. Pony's hindlegs are trailing, not tracking up and lacking forwardness and power, the neck looks tense and rather forced. The poll is not the highest point, giving the "broken" look 6" behind the ears.

Lovely horse though :)
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Sorry JFTD, didn't see your comment :)
thanks for your input :) I thought that the poll was the highest point..but you're right it's not :)
now you've mentioned it..she breaks at this point in all the pics...
I agree she looks tense and overall is not pleasing on the eye :)
 
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