how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Pearlsasinger]

I don't think you need to tell everyone they are wonderful, but there are ways and means of giving development points in a positive manner. I would be interested in what you think of my photos, in the context of what I have written above them as well as my response below to Wagtail.

Thank you.

Your horse is gorgeous!
And obviously responsive to his rider.

In your photos you are tipping forwards, with your legs back and your chin down, your arms straight and your hands flat. This is making your horse look to be 'downhill' or on the fore-hand, which I'm sure you already know, especially in the light of your comment about the new saddle. I would be interested to see photos of you riding in the new saddle.

To correct this, imagine that you have string attached .to the top of your head, pulling you upright

You are quite right about giving developmental points in a positive manner, which I may well have been able to do if I'd been there in person, or seen videos of some of the riders but in many cases the 'snapshot in time' was taken at just the wrong moment - possibly more the fault of the photographer than of the rider. As a (retired) teacher myself, I certainly understand the value of positive comment.

 

[Wagtail]

This has been a really fun thread to read.

I acquired some bad habits when I first started riding that I've never been able to get rid of, mainly a dodgy lower leg. I took dressage lessons regularly for about a decade, but it doesn't seem to have fixed it.

So I've always that my equitation is atrocious, which is a bit of a shame as I think my horse has far more potential than she ever gets to show off given she's carting about an eejit on her back. As I'd like to know what others think, here are a couple pics. Critique away, but be nice!

Bareback:

Your lower leg does not look that bad except for the third photograph where you are gripping up with your knees and pointing your toes. Your reins are too long and you are using your wrists to take up the slack rather than keeping a straight line through your wrists to the bit and back to your elbows. You also need to lift your chin and stretch your spine upwards to lighten your seat and strengthen your core. Your horse is actually going very well and is obviously quite light despite being allowed to go onto the forehand. I suspect that she would be a very 'easy' horse to get going nicely. She looks very happy.

 

[redmone]

There are far more experienced folks than me about now, so I've very little to add

You and your instructors have, quite rightly, spent the last couple of years (Still don't believe it is 2 years!) making the lovely Dolly go sweetly, calmly and safely. What this can do is lose some of the real power of the paces, and lose the natural rhythm. She really is a 'tank' of a pony conformationally, and the difference is remarkable.

I think now your daughter is ready to be asking for a little bit more from Dolly, she is certainly more confident and I think more able to cope with Dolly's power. Just simple things like insisting on a reaction when she puts her leg on will ensure Dolly is paying attention to her. Does she do any lateral work (leg yielding, shoulder in, even turn on the forehand) in lessons? That all helps develop flexibility, and will allow your daughter to be able to feel when Dolly is working straight and really swinging through with that powerful trot and canter she has. I think your daughter has developed a nice secure position (which really shows in her jumping) and I think your instructor is doing a good job. Personally I have no issue at all with pelhams or double bridles in good hands Does miniRM get much chance to ride other horses or ponies at all?

Awww thank you! See I knew you'd ask all the right questions!!

Firstly, thank you!

The "getting Dolly moving off a squeeze" is really helping things and the lady who has helped her the most is massive on this. It's good because it's something I can help with! We play traffic lights

Lateral work - she does lots of turning on the forehand/leg yielding, but can't grasp shoulder in yet. She's trying though! She likes to do a fried egg - trotting from 20m in to 10m circle then leg yielding out again - or something like that

We're finding in canter that Dolly has started to swing her back end towards the inside of the school - don't know why! Daughter is working like mad to keep her straight, and has been working off the track more in case that helps.

Daughter does ride other ponies, particularly in winter when she exercises the little ponies (which she LOVES more than Christmas!!!!) - it's amazing seeing all their different ways of going and different personalities!!!

Thanks again for your help! And I know, 2 years!!!

 

[Lucyad]

Lucy, is he heavy up front? Looks like he might be. He looks like a larger version of my horse, who used to lean like a freight train when I first got her and now doesn't. Leaning on the hand is a pretty natural reaction, especially for these drafts and draft-crosses, when they don't know how to balance themselves with their hind end. The rider will lean back and you'll have horse and rider feeding into each other's stiff and bracey habits. If this sounds like you, think about riding the horse super forward and keeping your hands light as I explained in my earlier post. If your hands are dropped onto the neck, that will tip your whole balance forward and make it even harder for the horse to carry himself behind. There are wee tricks to help break this habit. For example, I spent a while riding around balancing a whip horizontally across my wrists. If my hands dropped, I'd lose the whip! Silly stuff like that can help.

Yes, if I give him anything to brace against, he will lean and go onto the forehand. As a result he is good for making me concentrate on maintaining softness in my contact, otherwise he gets so heavy I can't maintain it, or tells me to bog off like in the last photo. I find it particularly difficult to relax and stay soft in dressage tests, and he reacts badly to my tension.

In a schooling scenario, I can get things back on track by dropping back to walk and asking nicely again, getting him soft, and carrying on. In a dressage test it is more difficult to pick him back up.

I do have a tendency to tip forward as well, as you point out, and that and my looking down obviously doesn't help, when combined with the dodgy hands - I feel a real difference to my horse's way of going when I manage to maintain a taller, more balanced position - it is just a matter of sustaining it!

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

After seeing the picture early in the thread get CC I thouht I would post a pic of my horse in an outline and see your views. I noticed someone said the reins need to be lose?! Not sure about that but they are here

CC if you wish as I am interested in people opinions in regard to horses working correctly

 

[Littlelegs]

I'm perhaps not explaining it very well jftd. What I'm trying to get at is that if we all, including myself, actually focused more on correcting our own faults, even 10, 20, 30 yrs after we first aquired them, before putting too much emphasis on what our mount is doing then some problems would improve by themselves. Because riding faults & bad habits often only come to light when you reach a more experienced level. If it makes more sense I suppose it can be compared to training a horse. You can get away with less than perfect basics & produce one that does a reasonable novice test or bn round, however the gaps in basics only come to light when you run into a problem with more advanced lateral work, bigger courses etc further down the line. And I think the same happens as riders.
In my case, probably because I was a long thin child/teen, I got away with slouching my upper body for years. I still looked ok & had no problems with anything I rode. Likewise a habit of dropping my inside hand whilst slipping the inside rein. And both faults only came to light when I got stuck advancing my riding beyond a certain point, & had to go back & sort them before I could progress.

 

[Caol Ila]

As you can see from Wagtail's comments on my post, I'm love looking down as well. I'll just stare at her ears all day. Terrible habit. And letting my reins creep longer as well. Amazing, all the things you do and don't even realise!

 

[Lucyad]

It's hard when they have such lovely ears though, isn't it!

 

[Wagtail]

After seeing the picture early in the thread get CC I thouht I would post a pic of my horse in an outline and see your views. I noticed someone said the reins need to be lose?! Not sure about that but they are here

CC if you wish as I am interested in people opinions in regard to horses working correctly

I think your horse looks lovely and on first glance he looks to be working very nicely. But on closer inspection, he is not quite 'through'. I am not a fan of loose reins at all, but I hate a heavy contact even more! And so your picture is far preferable to me than someone riding their horse into a heavy contact. Your horse is looking very content and as far as I can tell, he is just about tracking up. But the rein has gone slack means that all communication is being lost with the front end. Now this may be only for a split second, or it can be continuous. Impossible to tell from a photograph. Your hands are turned inwards and downwards which looks as though you may be fiddling? Again impossible to tell for sure with a still photograph, but may be why your horse is ducking slightly behind the vertical. Overall a nice picture though, and just my type of horse!

 

[Armas]

More long and low than an outline

Aramas can you see how the lad riding has 'tractor hands' ? As in theyre nigh on over his own knees? This is something a lot of people teach riders to do to try and tease the horses head down basically by pulling the bit down on the bars of the mouth, rather than doing all the very slow lateral work needed to build up the hind end to achieve self carriage, rather than man hand carriage. Lovely horse though

Not sure I would describe them as tractor hands

What about this one ??

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm perhaps not explaining it very well jftd. What I'm trying to get at is that if we all, including myself, actually focused more on correcting our own faults, even 10, 20, 30 yrs after we first aquired them, before putting too much emphasis on what our mount is doing then some problems would improve by themselves.

This, exactly this, is what I've been trying (obviously not very clearly) to say. IMO far too many people have been concentrating on commenting about the horse, when if the rider position had been corrected, the horse's way of going would have improved.
Some horses' conformation means that they struggle to go 'correctly' but they struggle even more if the rider is blocking them at every turn.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

I think your horse looks lovely and on first glance he looks to be working very nicely. I am not a fan of loose reins at all, but I hate a heavy contact even more! And so your picture is far preferable to me than someone riding their horse into a heavy contact. Your horse is looking very content and as far as I can tell, he is just about tracking up. But the rein has gone slack means that all communication is being lost with the front end. Now this may be only for a split second, or it can be continuous. Impossible to tell from a photograph. Your hands are turned inwards and downwards which looks as though you may be fiddling? Again impossible to tell for sure with a still photograph, but may be why your horse is ducking slightly behind the vertical. Overall a nice picture though, and just my type of horse!

Thanks, lose reins here as he has a funny mouth so I was being soft! He is now in a nathe and I have a contact now. He is only 4. As for tracking up he has a massive overtrack. I shall find another pic if I can. This is the 3rd time he was sat on after coming back as a 4 year old

 

[nikicb]

Your horse is gorgeous!
And obviously responsive to his rider.

Thank you. He is responsive, but is still very babyish - he far prefers to be taken hold of (by which I mean he can feel the contact, not me pulling him!) and still requires steering round corners, but we're getting there. I had my old girl for 30 years so she knew what I wanted by the merest weight change etc. I often school in my grass arena so it's very good for us as we don't have walls and fences to rely on.

In your photos you are tipping forwards, with your legs back and your chin down, your arms straight and your hands flat. This is making your horse look to be 'downhill' or on the fore-hand, which I'm sure you already know, especially in the light of your comment about the new saddle. I would be interested to see photos of you riding in the new saddle.

To correct this, imagine that you have string attached .to the top of your head, pulling you upright.

This all makes sense. I felt incredibly perched in that saddle as I hadn't ridden in anything other than a dressage saddle for years. It also had blocks in funny places which I only just found out were removable. Hopefully the new saddle will make all the difference - I certainly felt the stretching of muscles which hadn't been stretched for a while the first few times I used it. I'll try to remember the growing tall bit and the need for some more bend in my arms. Hopefully I'll be able to post some better pictures at some time in the future.

You are quite right about giving developmental points in a positive manner, which I may well have been able to do if I'd been there in person, or seen videos of some of the riders but in many cases the 'snapshot in time' was taken at just the wrong moment - possibly more the fault of the photographer than of the rider. As a (retired) teacher myself, I certainly understand the value of positive comment.

No worries. I know I can be somewhat blunt about things, but too many years of 360 degree evaluations at work conditioned me to sugar coat the truth even if it doesn't come naturally.

Thank you for taking the time to help.

 

[Caol Ila]

I got told once by a fellow livery that my riding looked "western." When I said we were doing (attempting) dressage, she looked surprised and asked me if dressage was different in the States (where I'm originally from). More influenced by western riding?

Ouch.

If I'd got told that by a fellow Yank, who would be much more exposed to the western disciplines even if they didn't ride them, that comment would have definitely been an insult. But given the context, I was just confused.

I would say that the above pics are the best moments of very mediocre, okay-ish rides. I never ride particularly well when I enlist friends/family to point a camera at me. I just get a bit tense and the bad habits get even more pronounced, as I lose the focus.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks, lose reins here as he has a funny mouth so I was being soft! He is now in a nathe and I have a contact now. He is only 4. As for tracking up he has a massive overtrack. I shall find another pic if I can. This is the 3rd time he was sat on after coming back as a 4 year old

In that case, I am very impressed. I would have said he was eight at least!

 

[PaddyMonty]

If you can see all that from one photograph taken from a low profile then you should be doing some CC on this thread . I can see your left hand lowered but not your collapsed hip or that your weight is to the outside from this angle. Is it that you are aware of your faults and therefore can spot them because you know you were doing them at the time? Impulsion looks fine to me, though after what you have told me, maybe your horse was a tad unhappy, hence the ears? Still looks a very pleasing picture compared with some people that I teach!

Just going from the pic.....
Comparing the horses front end to back end, whilst the inside hind is coming through the front end appears stuck. It is neither moving up significantly or out. For the power that should be created from that level of inside engagement the front end should be a lot freerer. As its not, the power is wasted so whilst there is huge potential for impulsion it is not realised.
Which leads on to why....
Again just from pic, upper body is tilted to the left slightly and inside hand has dropped. For this to happen I have to have collapsed to a degree at the hip. For me (or any rider) to remain in the saddle under these curcumstances something else has to change to remain in balance. Here my bum has moved slightly to the right which results in a change in the angle of my thigh (as my shoulders are still square). Instead of the inner part of my thigh being on the saddle the contact point has shifted more towards the back of the thigh with the result that the foot turns out.
Net effect of all these points together is to induce a compensating twist and balancing movement in the horse (not visible in the pic as horse weight compared to mine is much greater) which is blocking true impulsion.
Whilst I dont like the pic I think it is a good example of how a small error in the riders position can prevent what we are all striving for. Simply correcting my collapse would solve all the issues as everything would then come back in line and balance move back to the centre of the horse allowing straightness and the potential power to come through.

I used to spend a lot of time teaching but prefer not to critic on a forum as I dont know the person. Whilst what I say may be correct I might well not say it in a way that is useful or acceptable to the person. When teaching one to one you can asses how to interact with the pupil. far more difficult on a forum

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

First time under saddle at 4

Gone downhill here but trying to get him to stretch, 5th time under saddle at 4

Talking of downhill my little mare is always going down. Sorry I tip forward I have scoliosis so find being upright hard!

 

[Littlelegs]

I did get entirely what you meant by your first post pearlsasinger, rather than reading it as just being critical or personal. And possibly the best advice I have ever had was from a rather blunt boss, which went along the lines of 'if you cba to sit in the right ****ing place, why the **** should the horse bother? And if by chance it does, how the **** would it know it was there if you aren't too for **** sake?'. Maybe not the politest way to explain, but none the less true.

 

[Wagtail]

I used to spend a lot of time teaching but prefer not to critic on a forum as I dont know the person. Whilst what I say may be correct I might well not say it in a way that is useful or acceptable to the person. When teaching one to one you can asses how to interact with the pupil. far more difficult on a forum

I take the view that if someone posts a pic up asking for critique, then they should be prepared to take the feedback on the assumption that it is well intended, may be worng, but may be extremely helpful. I think people would be very grateful for your views. You are highly observant and analytical.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I did get entirely what you meant by your first post pearlsasinger, rather than reading it as just being critical or personal. And possibly the best advice I have ever had was from a rather blunt boss, which went along the lines of 'if you cba to sit in the right ****ing place, why the **** should the horse bother? And if by chance it does, how the **** would it know it was there if you aren't too for **** sake?'. Maybe not the politest way to explain, but none the less true.

PMSL!

Someone after my own heart, obviously. That illustrates exactly what I was trying to say and I can definitely imagine some of the old horsemen that I've met saying something similar.

I'm sure that it is too blunt for a number of people though, and it isn't the approach I would take in my working life, although I might well think along those lines.

 

[Littlelegs]

Tbf, when he was speaking to people he didn't know well, or people who would be offended, you could actually see him biting his tongue while he tried to rephrase his thoughts in an acceptable way. Worked for me though, nothing cures a tendency to let the inside rein slip quite as quickly as someone telling you they will 'take the ****ing thing off if you don't want it' whilst you're riding a horse that is close to being too much for you with two reins.

 

[Wagtail]

Tbf, when he was speaking to people he didn't know well, or people who would be offended, you could actually see him biting his tongue while he tried to rephrase his thoughts in an acceptable way. Worked for me though, nothing cures a tendency to let the inside rein slip quite as quickly as someone telling you they will 'take the ****ing thing off if you don't want it' whilst you're riding a horse that is close to being too much for you with two reins.

Very good tactic!

 

[pootleperkin]

This, exactly this, is what I've been trying (obviously not very clearly) to say. IMO far too many people have been concentrating on commenting about the horse, when if the rider position had been corrected, the horse's way of going would have improved.
Some horses' conformation means that they struggle to go 'correctly' but they struggle even more if the rider is blocking them at every turn.

I couldn't agree more - I'm painfully aware that it is probably my shortcomings that have stopped my horse becoming far more advanced in his work before now (well, that and the fact that he is a bugger to get fit and keeps finding excuses to not get fit via sickness and injury!).

However, I haven't had the opportunity to always have regular lessons, wasn't born on a horse and have never found that 'amazing' instructor who would take the time to insist on perfection before moving on to the next stage. Nor would I have had the time to act on that opportunity, even if I had found that instructor. I also know that even as my riding improves, my horse needs to be the best athlete he can be too, so I'm keen to know what sort of exercises I should be trying to apply to help him get stronger and more supple too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I do the best with what I have, I strive to improve, but most of all, I want to enjoy my horses and competing them.

Seeing all sorts of pics on here, the best and worst, and then reading the various cc, agreeing and disagreeing, and so reflecting a bit on my own experience is a pretty useful exercise. Keeping it all positive for everyone is the best way to go I reckon

FWIW, my fave rider on here by far is still AA's friend - his seat looks like it is out of a textbook.

 

[Persephone]

First time under saddle at 4

Gone downhill here but trying to get him to stretch, 5th time under saddle at 4

Talking of downhill my little mare is always going down. Sorry I tip forward I have scoliosis so find being upright hard!

Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?

 

[Wagtail]

Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?

Show jumping. Don't you know it's the law?

 

[TigerTail]

Sorry, BM on a slightly different vein, but that's a hell of a lot of tack for a horse just under saddle. What were your reasons for the grackle and martingale?

x 2 ?

Aramas - yes def tractor hands!!! The other pic you put up is a bit better but they are still far too low and wide (btw I teach classical so may differ slightly to some people on here )

Wagtail - Im sorry but I really really cannot agree that loose reins = bad. You say that this means all contact is dropped. I think we need to put this into a context, if a horse and rider are at a decent level schooling wise, ie all lateral work well established in walk and trot, no tack gadgets etc and the horse knows how to work from its back end and is settled in a natural outline (not being pulled there by the rider) then a smile in the reins would be a wonderful thing to see! It demonstrates the pure gymnastic ability of the horse to carry himself and his rider without assistance from the rider - thing of beauty in my opinion

However a novice rider/horse does need the light contact, but for me this is opening and closing the fingers, never bracing or pulling back.

 

[Wagtail]

x 2 ?

Wagtail - Im sorry but I really really cannot agree that loose reins = bad. You say that this means all contact is dropped. I think we need to put this into a context, if a horse and rider are at a decent level schooling wise, ie all lateral work well established in walk and trot, no tack gadgets etc and the horse knows how to work from its back end and is settled in a natural outline (not being pulled there by the rider) then a smile in the reins would be a wonderful thing to see! It demonstrates the pure gymnastic ability of the horse to carry himself and his rider without assistance from the rider - thing of beauty in my opinion

The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein).

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.

 

[Bernster]

However a novice rider/horse does need the light contact, but for me this is opening and closing the fingers, never bracing or pulling back.

Haven't read the whole thread, as this whole outline malarkey is such a huge amount to take in that I think I would be too bamboozled! But I really struggle with this bit TT, gauging level of contact and how to get it right without pulling them into a false outline.

ETA Or waggling the reins, to annoy Wagtail !

 

[Cortez]

The issue I have with it is that it often results in an inconsistency in the rein and therefore what looks like an irritating vibration in the horse's mouth as when I see this kind of thing the rein is usually alternating between drooping and contact. If you want to ride with a loose rein, then fine, but in schooling then please make your mind up whether you are riding western (all loose rein) or English (always with a contact unless giving the horse a loose rein as in giving and taking the rein or free walk on a long rein).

I do however, sometimes ride a well schooled horse with no reins at all, to check how tuned in they are to my leg and weight aids, But that is just part of my schooling. Seeing reins go loose and then taught is just a pet hate of mine, I'm afraid, but that is not to say I am right, it is just my opinion.

ETA I think it shows more skill in a rider if they are able to maintain a gentle contact, keeping the same pressure on the bit through all paces and at all stages in the gait than to let the reins go loose, that actually, anyone can do.

Nice theory, but in my experience only works with horses which are REALLY capable of proper self carriage, which IME means Iberian horses or other extremely baroque-built ones. Vast majority of modern horses do not have the necessary neck positioning to do this for more than a few seconds, and modern dressage requires a certain amount of "appui".

 

[PolarSkye]

OK . . . this was taken yesterday in the warm-up arena at Fair Oak. Not me on board. He's been back in proper work for a couple of months and does varied work. He was tense in the warm-up and that probably shows, but I like that he's showing activity in the trot and he's poll high b/c going btv/overbending/going behind the bit is one of his party tricks.

How do we think he's doing?

P