how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Wagtail]

More long and low than an outline

Hi Armas, another stunning horse! He is very much on his forehand, though I see you are working him long and low. In the first and third picture you are tipping forward somewhat, which will in itself put him onto the forehand.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Great thread TrOuble- in my opinion yours in the best example of a nice 'outline' so far

heres a couple of my pics. I know she can (& does!) go much better but this was my first ever show & I was a bit nervous/preoccupied!!



[Content removed]

I know shes a bit flat on this one but I think it demonstrates that she is moving 'forwards'....

[Content removed]

 

[el_Snowflakes]

ps. I am aware of my bad position on the 2nd photo- the first one is a better example of my normal position!

Wagtail- reposting those pics has made my screen go mental!?!

 

[pootleperkin]

Wow Wagtail - you have been busy this morning

It's super interesting comparing everyones' cc; kept me interested over the weekend anyway and a great way to learn. Poor old Gully, I'm now quite enthuused and just want to school all the time!

 

[Wagtail]

ps. I am aware of my bad position on the 2nd photo- the first one is a better example of my normal position!

Wagtail- reposting those pics has made my screen go mental!?!

You mean me reposting them? I did it so people could see what I was talking about without having to flip back over the pages. Sorry!

 

[Lucyad]

Really interesting thread.

Would love some critique on me and my boy....I struggle to keep him light in the hand as he has a tendency to lean on me, and go on his forehand. He is built on his forehand anyway, and has bone spavin which I suspect makes the problem worse.

in a recent lesson.

at the begining of a dresage test...

...which sometimes goes pair-shaped something like this!

 

[Wagtail]

Wow Wagtail - you have been busy this morning

Haha, yes. It's just that I'm putting off doing a weeks worth of poo picking for seven horses. Got to go now though.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

LucyAd he looks like he has a lovely active hind leg- something Im always drawn to in a horse! maybe a tad heavy in front like you say but other than that some really nice pics

 

[el_Snowflakes]

sorry wagtail- I meant RE posting!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Redmone, your last photo is lovely. I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread. Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos. that is what your daughter should be aiming for. If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly. As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine. Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'. Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going. Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!

 

[PaddyMonty]

Rare pic of me doing stressage stuff
Do your worst.

 

[showpony]

My position for one was brutal in couple of pics I put up - at the time saddle I had was tipping me forward something terrible. BUT had to ride in it while current saddle was being made. TBH I think most of us are open for constructive critisism.. I have no issue with people seeing pics - sure isn't this about improving etc?

Redmone, your last photo is lovely. I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread. Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos. that is what your daughter should be aiming for. If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly. As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine. Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'. Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going. Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!

 

[TigerTail]

Pearlsaginger - thankyou Some of the comments have made me want to bang my head on a wall as to where on earth people have picked up these ideas and think theyre correct I dont agree with everything Wagtail has said though, for eg in Aramas pic its not long and low so much as leaning on the bit in an attempt to relieve the pressure on the bars of its mouth from the tractor hands of the rider but hey ho


Lucyads - your first two pics are lovely, they are the best human arm and hand examples in this thread (also love the big grin it is about having fun after all!) The hands could be a little higher ideally. The horse is in a really lovely position in first 3 pics looks like hes really starting to power through from behind, hence your arms not being straight or locked hauling his head in Despite his breed he is def not the heaviest looking horse of this thread, far from it in fact, heavy horses can be beautifully light in the hands and leg too! Pic 4 is just him showing off he'd have a lovely piaffe

Paddy Monty - he's very slightly behind the vertical but its not too terrible! I think you are trying to hld him there by bracing with your back, also suspect you are gripping with your knees causing your lower leg to swing back wards, dont forget to think about rolling your little toes down to get your feet pointing forwards rather than out sideways. He is on his forehand though and def needs lots of sloooow trot work and walk - canter transitions to improve the impulsion

 

[Lucyad]

Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine. Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'. Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going. Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!

Speaking only for myself, but I am highly aware that position affects the horses way of going, and can assure you that I have not put photos to 'appal' you but to get some specific criticism that might help! And I specifically have put in a pic of what happens when things fall appart, as I thought it might be useful for those helping.

I don't think a dig at those posting photos is helpful at all - if people are taking them time to post useful comments, then surely the help is worth the embarrasment of having their dodgy position pictured on a forum! (which after all hurts no-one).

 

[el_Snowflakes]

lucyAds- I forgot to say - you might find him a little lighter on the forehand if you turn your hands so your thumbs are on top

 

[NiceChristmasBaubles]

Redmone, your last photo is lovely. I agree wholeheartedly with Wagtail's comments.

In fact I agree with her comments all through-out the thread. Some others, just off the top of my head, that I agree with are Sugar-and-Spice and Tiger tail.

The ONLY perfect rider position that I have seen is in Adorable Alice's photos. that is what your daughter should be aiming for. If she gets that right, any horse she rides will be helped to develop the right muscles to work correctly. As you say the head position is the last thing to worry about.
Some of the photos have appalled me - why any-one would put them up for others to see, I cannot imagine. Some of the comments are even worse and some of the comments by people who have also put up photos, explain why their horses are not going 'correctly'. Many people do not seem to understand the direct correlation between rider position and horse's position/way of going. Yes some horses' conformation inhibits their movement but not half as much as some riders' positions!

I usually 'sing off the same hymn sheet' as you, but I do think this is a tad harsh, especially the part in bold. Not everybody (myself included) is born with the perfect position and the skills to ride a horse to its best. We all have to learn and some of us probably know that it isn't working but don't know what to change to make it happen. Comments like yours above will make people reluctant to open themselves up for constructive criticism and nothing will ever change to the possible detriment of their horse. Rather than a sweeping generalisation, perhaps you would spare the time to impart your knowledge as Wagtail and many others have.

 

[Lucyad]

Lucyads - your first two pics are lovely, they are the best human arm and hand examples in this thread (also love the big grin it is about having fun after all!) The horse is in a really lovely position in first 3 pics looks like hes really starting to power through from behind, hence your arms not being straight or locked hauling his head in Despite his breed he is def not the heaviest looking horse of this thread, far from it in fact, heavy horses can be beautifully light in the hands and leg too! Pic 4 is just him showing off he'd have a lovely piaffe

Thank you for taking the time to comment. The last pic is him doing what he has a tendency to do on grass, and is saying 'bog off, I can see a cross country course!' and he tries to pull me out of the saddle. I find it really difficult to have enough core strength to keep him together without getting into a pulling battle, which I always loose. I see photos of tests and some look OK to me, but there are always a few horrible ones like this that just make me want to drop the reins and ride on the buckle for ever more!

ETA, thanks about thumbs comment as well - I am terrible! (my 7 year old daughter now shouts at me to imagine I have birds on my thumbs!).

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Pearlsasinger- people are looking for help on here. Perhaps you could let us see a pic of you on your horse and demonstrate how its done?

 

[el_Snowflakes]

perhaps this is a better example of our trot......

 

[JFTDWS]

I posted these a while back, I wonder if anyone other that rhino would care to comment.

can I play?

On a better day, mine goes a bit like this...

despite me doing horrible pully things with my inside hand

However, I have a horrible habit of dropping my hands and making him tense, blocking him coming through behind etc.

(last photo is really vile, I know)

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Pearlsasinger- people are looking for help on here. Perhaps you could let us see a pic of you on your horse and demonstrate how its done?

You don't need a picture of me, just look at Adorable Alice's photos. That is what I aim for but certainly don't always succeed.

I have been surprised that some people put some photos up, looking for cc when surely they can see for themselves, that their hands are turned over blocking the horse, their chins are down, thus pushing the horse onto the fore-hand, their bodies are slumped, their legs too far back/forward. I know that a photo is just a snapshot of a moment in time and it is quite possible that many riders adjusted their position and so their horses way of going in the next moment.
I often get a friend to video my schooling sessions and then spend ages picking them to bits.

I made generalised comments because I didn't want to single individuals out. Any-one who considers that my comments don't pertain to them can ignore them.

 

[Littlelegs]

I think pearlsasinger has actually raised an important issue. While there is nothing wrong with having faults, & seeking to correct them it is interesting to figure out why they come about in the first place. I'll be the first to admit I am a bit obsessive about position. I spent most of my childhood riding bareback, then I had the opportunity to ride a fantastic psg schoolmaster who fell apart if you so much as moved one hand half a cm. Therefore the huge importance of position is something I feel strongly about. My daughter at 7 still doesn't ride regularly in a saddle, its either bareback or ponypad, & she never used the reins till 4/5 to communicate anything, so that when she did she had both the balance & understanding to only use them as they should be. As a result she does have a fab position that is always complimented, without me having to do much or correct it. And whilst I do realise that learning as a child has big advantages, I do question why so many people, both kids & adults, are being taught to interfere with the horses way of going before having a good position themselves. That isn't a criticism of anyone on here, anyone can pick up faults & how you learned originally, good or bad isn't anyone's fault. But if as a whole everyone focused on teaching & learning a near perfect position, riding would be of a better standard & horses would have less schooling issues that needed correcting.
A few years ago I taught a non horsey mum, who's only aim was to hack with her child when she couldn't keep up on foot, on a safe horse. Whilst she has no interest in schooling, I still taught her a good position, so whilst knowing only aids for basics, horses do go quite nicely for her cos she isn't effecting them badly, even if not improving them. Whereas time & again, here & in rl, you here of how quickly someone's picked up riding, cantering & jumping of lr within 3/4 months of first sitting on a horse. And the resulting position makes me cringe tbh. Because somewhere down the line its always causes problems. So much simpler to learn correctly in the first place.

 

[JFTDWS]

littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it. It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists. Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going. That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed. I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it. It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists. Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going. That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed. I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.

JFTD I agree with your comments

Its all very well saying this is how I 'aspire' to ride pearlsasinger! Im sure most of us aspire to ride like somebody but getting that brain-body connection isnt alway easy. If it was we would all be riding like Charlotte Dujardin (or whoever it is you admire)....

anyway, anyone willing to give me some CC on the 3 pics I posted?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I think pearlsasinger has actually raised an important issue. While there is nothing wrong with having faults, & seeking to correct them it is interesting to figure out why they come about in the first place. I'll be the first to admit I am a bit obsessive about position. I spent most of my childhood riding bareback, then I had the opportunity to ride a fantastic psg schoolmaster who fell apart if you so much as moved one hand half a cm. Therefore the huge importance of position is something I feel strongly about. My daughter at 7 still doesn't ride regularly in a saddle, its either bareback or ponypad, & she never used the reins till 4/5 to communicate anything, so that when she did she had both the balance & understanding to only use them as they should be. As a result she does have a fab position that is always complimented, without me having to do much or correct it. And whilst I do realise that learning as a child has big advantages, I do question why so many people, both kids & adults, are being taught to interfere with the horses way of going before having a good position themselves. That isn't a criticism of anyone on here, anyone can pick up faults & how you learned originally, good or bad isn't anyone's fault. But if as a whole everyone focused on teaching & learning a near perfect position, riding would be of a better standard & horses would have less schooling issues that needed correcting.
A few years ago I taught a non horsey mum, who's only aim was to hack with her child when she couldn't keep up on foot, on a safe horse. Whilst she has no interest in schooling, I still taught her a good position, so whilst knowing only aids for basics, horses do go quite nicely for her cos she isn't effecting them badly, even if not improving them. Whereas time & again, here & in rl, you here of how quickly someone's picked up riding, cantering & jumping of lr within 3/4 months of first sitting on a horse. And the resulting position makes me cringe tbh. Because somewhere down the line its always causes problems. So much simpler to learn correctly in the first place.

Ll you have put extremely well (better than I managed to) what I was trying to say. I must admit to not feeling well today, with amongst other things an horrendous headache, which I expect is making me very grumpy.

I was very fortunate to start riding whilst young and to have 2 very good teachers for the first 7 years of my riding career, with very good ponies and horses to ride, the majority of which didn't just work in the RS but were also show ponies and hunters. Group lessons were the norm and we learned as much from watching each other as we did from our own riding. I cannot remember either RI commenting on the horse's way of going but can remember lots of comments on position. When the rider's position was right the horse/pony went well.
I felt, reading many of the comments, that riders were expecting the horse's way of going to improve without the rider's position being corrected.

ETA Perhaps what I should have said is that I was surprised that almost all the comments, with a few notable exceptions, have been about the horses rather than about the riders.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

littlelegs, I do agree with what you say, but I fail to see how it is relevant to the context of this thread, given that those of us asking for cc clearly agree that position influences way of going, and we are seeking to improve it. It's all very well to say it should be taught correctly in the first instance, but we are not all so fortunate as to begin our riding education with position-obsessed purists. Though fwiw, I also spent my teenage years bareback

Pearlsasinger, I also video regularly and deconstruct my position and my horse's way of going. That doesn't mean a fresh pair of eyes, or a more experienced pair won't be able to highlight something I have missed. I don't think your attitude is exactly helpful, slating people who have been open with their own failings on the forum.


eta, whoever's photos have messed up the thread, can you please fix them, it's infuriating not being able to read comments.

OK, in the first photo, your chin and hands both need to be lifted. This will help your horse to lift his back and become rounder. Will that do?

 

[JFTDWS]

OK, in the first photo, your chin and hands both need to be lifted. This will help your horse to lift his back and become rounder. Will that do?

Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions. Thanks.

 

[TigerTail]

JFTD - You can see your bareback history in that you actually have the ability to ride with a decent leg length and arent hampered by a short psoas muscle which is what so many people struggle with. From the pics, and its diff without vid to say for sure, it looks like you dont have independent hands. So if you were one of my pupils you'd be doing a lot with no reins and then one rein etc until you can separate your arms from the rest of you. You've obviously spotted the curling hand on one of the pics, then we go to them being together on his withers and then tractor hands. Id suggest you've had an instructor getting you to carry your hands all over the place to try and achieve an outline artificially You also need to remember to turn your little toes down so your feet stay forwards not in ballet first position hope thts somewhat helpful.

 

[Cortez]

JFTD I agree with your comments

Its all very well saying this is how I 'aspire' to ride pearlsasinger! Im sure most of us aspire to ride like somebody but getting that brain-body connection isnt alway easy. If it was we would all be riding like Charlotte Dujardin (or whoever it is you admire)....

anyway, anyone willing to give me some CC on the 3 pics I posted?

Well, I'll give you my 2 ha pennyworth. Lovely highland (I am presuming?), not being too bothered by your not-exactly "horrendous" hands - you are suffering from "magnetic pommel" syndrome, where the hand, usually the inside one, is irresistibly attracted by and becomes stuck to the front of the saddle, or the thigh in extreme cases. This is bad, of course, as the contact is then fixed and cannot release or give. It is also bad because you then tip forwards and your back becomes tense and fixed also. Very common fault, cured by sitting on your ar*e (this is a technical term used by RI's the world over), carrying your hands & loosening all the joints from your wrists to your shoulders. Your horse doesn't seem to mind too much, 'though

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Not especially since those are the two things I am painfully aware of (noting my repeated ref to low hands throughout the post), however if that is your only comment, at least it supports my own opinions. Thanks.

JFTD- No expert here but my friendly advice would be to give your arms'wrists a good shake out as they look very tense (as you are aware)elbows at sides & forget whats going on with the front end of your horse and try and sit a bit lighter in your seat.....as my instructor told me 'sit as if your sitting in a dirty nappy and you dont really want to sit on it' LOL......yukky but it helps!!