how do you get a horse into an outline???

[pootleperkin]

Kokopelli - I love little louie - such a difference in a little time - and also think you are being hard on yourself with the pics of Andy - I don't think he is eiher massively overbent or massively on the forehand, partic in the second pic. I think he looks like he is working well for the stage he is at.

 

[Kokopelli]

Kokopelli - I love little louie - such a difference in a little time - and also think you are being hard on yourself with the pics of Andy - I don't think he is eiher massively overbent or massively on the forehand, partic in the second pic. I think he looks like he is working well for the stage he is at.

Thank you

I love him too! Still working on that lottery win so I can buy him.

I am very over critical of Andy, it sounds bad but I've given up with dressage with him he doesn't enjoy it so don't see the point in pushing him to do it. He's on holiday atm but the moment he comes back I'm going to try and push him once more and see if I can get a nice elementry test out of him so really want all the CC I can get and advice I can get. If it doesn't work we will just enjoy hacking, jumping and being a knobber.

 

[JFTDWS]

Sorry they have been re sized but its down to photbucket delaying the re size.

thanks

 

[TigerTail]

That is your opinion and I respect that but I know how I ride, if I had any tension I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt her mouth. As for the saddle thing, her back is checked regularly, if there was a problem, again, I'd stop.

As a qualified classical dressage instructor Im obviously entirely ignorant of these matters Its entirely possible you dont ride in the manner you describe but the way it reads is exactly as I said before. The pushing with the seat wouldn't necessarily damage the horses back just inhibit its way of going and prevent a TRUE outline rather than a forced one. Keeping any part of your body tense requires muscles to hold it in that position therefore bracing a part of you does in some way = tension. Doesnt mean you are pulling back on her mouth which is what causes damage, but does mean there is tension there rather than the horse being able to carry his head in that position naturally

Kopelli the improvement between the first and last of those pics is huge you must be so proud My only comment would be the saddle is putting you in an bad position, look at how your heel is a good 3 inches in front of your hip, so all your weight is right on his shoulders and means you come down on the back of the saddle, rather than both being nicely balanced and the weight distributed from the middle

Aramas can you see how the lad riding has 'tractor hands' ? As in theyre nigh on over his own knees? This is something a lot of people teach riders to do to try and tease the horses head down basically by pulling the bit down on the bars of the mouth, rather than doing all the very slow lateral work needed to build up the hind end to achieve self carriage, rather than man hand carriage. Lovely horse though

 

[Auslander]

That is your opinion and I respect that but I know how I ride, if I had any tension I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt her mouth. As for the saddle thing, her back is checked regularly, if there was a problem, again, I'd stop.

Sorry - but it is impossible for there not to be tension if your elbow is locked. You may not be hurting her mouth, but you are restricting her ability to move her head and neck naturally. Also - you cannot expect her to offer a soft yielding contact if you aren't giving her one. A fixed elbow can help to get the nose tucked in, but that is not a correct outline. To get that, you need to be pushing her from behind into a soft steady hand, channeling the forward energy you create with the leg upwards.

It is possible (although not ideal) to get away with a fixed elbow to a degree in trot, because there is less natural movement of the head, but in walk and canter, if your elbow is fixed, the horse will be be unable to move her head and neck, and will therefore be restricted from going freely forward.

You may find that she goes even better if you soften your elbow. A momentary "Hey - come back to me" block is one thing, but fixed elbows aren't conducive to a correct way of going.

 

[pootleperkin]

Completely agree tiger tail. Re pushing out with your seat, I was taught to do that by a riding school many moons ago and have been trying to stop myself from doing it ever since! It was really brought home to me years ago when I had a lesson on a dressage schoolmaster- I tried to push it put from the seat and couldn't get it to move! I had to sit quietly in the saddle, with a loose pelvis (if you know what I mean!) Then the horse moved forward for me - quite an eye opener!

 

[OpalFruits]

TigerTail I never once suggested that you are ignorant. Thank you all for replying, and I shall try what you suggest.

 

[Auslander]

Sorry they have been re sized but its down to photbucket delaying the re size.

They are still huge - which is a pita for those of us on netbooks. What size have you reduced them to? Could be that its still not small enough - 800x600 is about the max that I would post on a forum.

 

[rhino]

They are still huge - which is a pita for those of us on netbooks. What size have you reduced them to? Could be that its still not small enough - 800x600 is about the max that I would post on a forum.

They're showing smaller than that on mine - checked the properties and everything

Showpony - I can't tell much from those photos except that you have a very pretty horse. Do you have any more photos - preferably side on?

 

[Kokopelli]

Kopelli the improvement between the first and last of those pics is huge you must be so proud My only comment would be the saddle is putting you in an bad position, look at how your heel is a good 3 inches in front of your hip, so all your weight is right on his shoulders and means you come down on the back of the saddle, rather than both being nicely balanced and the weight distributed from the middle

I'm very pleased with the little guy, he recently has improved again and he feels amazing, sometimes I can't believe he is 14.2 sadly it doesn't pay off because he believes at shows everything is going to eat him so we're getting him out and about a lot

The saddle is very frustrating, I've tried dropping my stirrups a few holes but felt I then lost connection with him because even though I have tiny legs he has nothing to take them up. I'm not keen on buying him a new saddle as I have to sell him next summer Any suggestions that may help until I win the lottery?

 

[Auslander]

They're showing smaller than that on mine - checked the properties and everything

They've shrunk now - I can breathe again!

 

[thinkitwasjune]

Can I play too? Would love some CC: 5yo ex point-to-pointer - I know he is behind the vertical and we are still struggling to find a bit he is happy in, but pics are from our first prelim test, 3 weeks after I got him. That was at the end of May, no recent pics sadly!

Pretty please? Anyone?

 

[JFTDWS]

still massive on mine and I'm on a laptop too

 

[TigerTail]

Hi TIWJ Pics are quite hard to critique, vid much better! He's only a tiny bit behind the vertical in the 2nd, about the same in the 1st but hard to tell cos of the angle of the pic. It looks to me like he is leaning on the bit and your hands, if you look at your arms they are nigh on straight. He needs to learn to carry the bit rather than tow away on it and get his balance from pulling against you if that makes sense. Needs to be using his back end more, so lots of slooooow walk work and lateral work before sloooow trot work

 

[rowy]

Pretty please? Anyone?

I will have a go.
I think your horse has lovely paces
Contact wise, he is just, as you say, coming behind the vertical. Plus head is a little low and poll is meant to be the highest point but not a majour concern on a novice horse.
Position of rider is good except in first pic the leg seems to be swinging quite far back although you are going around a turn so may be the reason.
I get the feeling he is not quite going forward enough in the pic and would like to see more power from the hind end pushing through and lifting the head and poll a little.
But overall, not bad for a prelim horse I'm sure he will look stunning once more established and muscly!

 

[pootleperkin]

We can't leave you out ThinkitwasJune!

For me, he looks very heavy in front, but he is trying to work hard from behind. He looks like he is trying so hard, bless him! I think he needs to be built up (any recent pics of him stood up) behind the saddle and in front come to that, in order to help him carry himself. Lots of lateral work methinks and pole work.

Your position looks quite nice, maybe sit up a little more (something I don't do enough) with a bit more bend in elbow, thumbs on top, to help him even more by lifting your weight off his front end - in the second pic, I think you look good, however, he looks like he is leaning on you , so try dropping him for a second or two every now and then, so he learns that he can't rely on you to carry him all the time.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0afdFsckffo

 

[thinkitwasjune]

We can't leave you out ThinkitwasJune!

For me, he looks very heavy in front, but he is trying to work hard from behind. He looks like he is trying so hard, bless him! I think he needs to be built up (any recent pics of him stood up) behind the saddle and in front come to that, in order to help him carry himself. Lots of lateral work methinks and pole work.

Your position looks quite nice, maybe sit up a little more (something I don't do enough) with a bit more bend in elbow, thumbs on top, to help him even more by lifting your weight off his front end - in the second pic, I think you look good, however, he looks like he is leaning on you , so try dropping him for a second or two every now and then, so he learns that he can't rely on you to carry him all the time.

Thank you everyone He is such a sweetie but he can be quite heavy in front at times and I'm not really sure what to do with him I think he may be the least forward racehorse ever! I've been working on loads of transitions between the paces and also started asking for collection and extension in trot. We do our best with poles but the poor baby is a bit scared of them still Oh and we are on a circle in the first pic if that helps! Like I said, this was our first ever dressage test and we got all 6s and 7s (and came third ) and some great comments from the judge so I was very pleased with him! I'm also working hard on my own position as I know I won't get the best out of him if I'm all wonky

 

[showpony]

Would love some Critique?

I find my mare accepts contact & works in enough of an outline for a 4yo when she is warmed up , relaxed & focused on working...
Keen to see what you all think re confirmation etc that may help towards working her in a proper outline in the future.
couple of pics best I could find. ( please excuse my brutal position in a couple - new saddle has rectified things! )

Pedhlem bit only used for show & did not over used the double reins - she is normally ridden in a simple snaffle bit )

 

[pootleperkin]

Hi Show pony,

As I think Rhino said, it's kind of hard to critique from these photos - need more from the side and closer up?

From what I can see, she looks lovely, but it's fair to say if it was the saddle causing you to tip forward, it wasn't doing you any favours at all! From what I can see of photo 3, you aren't tipped forward so much and so can have a more active seat and a more relaxed contact - hard to tell from that distance though - better pics needed

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

EKW I can't see the video on my phone, but the earlier photos you're right its a forced outline. Show riders seem to like the horses heads up in a more advanced outline than what the rest of the horses body is ready for, if that makes sense. I'd lengthen the rein a little even if the horse pokes his nose out. Work on getting him relaxed so the head comes down. As he learns to take more weight on his quarters (which he can't do at the minute due to being blocked at the front), the forehand will lighten and raise, the head will drop and the nose will come in. It all starts from the back end. All he's done at the moment is shorten his neck and tuck his nose in.

Robyn, your horse is a little on the forehand, as you say, but not awful and heading in the right direction. I'm sure you'll get back to how you were before his injury, if he has made a full recovery. It just takes time.

Jackson I've only seen your second pics (page 16 I think) the bareback is better. In the second pic he's running on and out of balance and so are you. Like a human running down a steep hill and once you've started you can't stop. Speed yes, forwards movement yes, but no control of power. Power does not mean speed. Power means impulsion. Impulsion is, um, bounce? The bounce sends the horse forward, as if there was springs under each hoof. That's the best way I can think of describing it (its late and my brains not working sorry). In the bareback pic, though its better, he still looks a little tense. He's tight through the neck and back which is why he's not tracking up. Keep him slow like that pic, but lengthen your reins, encourage relaxation of his topline and lowering of his head. What's going on with your shoulders and neck in the bareback pic? Is it bad posture or do you have damage? You lean back at the shoulders and forward at the neck. Ideally you need to sit up straight with a straight line from your ear through your shoulder, hip and heel. Perhaps you can't do it due to a physical injury in your back or neck? How do you stand when off the horse, is your posture any better? Your back, shoulders and neck at the moment will stop horse going forward properly, blocking his movement and causing the tension in his back and neck. Are you maybe stiff in the lower back, absorbing the movement through your neck instead? Are you struggling to fit narrow hips round a wide cob without a saddle? Your hips need to swing to absorb the horses movement. At the moment you'll probably be nodding your head in trot and rowing with your shoulders in canter, instead of these areas staying still (relaxed still, not tense still). By sorting your position out you have the potential to make a big difference to your horse.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

EKW I can't see the video on my phone, but the earlier photos you're right its a forced outline. Show riders seem to like the horses heads up in a more advanced outline than what the rest of the horses body is ready for, if that makes sense. I'd lengthen the rein a little even if the horse pokes his nose out. Work on getting him relaxed so the head comes down. As he learns to take more weight on his quarters (which he can't do at the minute due to being blocked at the front), the forehand will lighten and raise, the head will drop and the nose will come in. It all starts from the back end. All he's done at the moment is shorten his neck and tuck his nose in.

I whole heartedly agree with you and he has spent all summer being reschooled and is now working much, much more correctly. What may surprise you slightly is that in those photos he hadn't actually had much reschooling since leaving racing. I rattled him out to a show as soon as I could as I new he could ponce around and look pretty enough on the surface. He was exactly the same in training with us and I have seen workout videos from his 2 and 3yo days in America and he is highly amusing to watch. He tucked his head in to work but when you press the go faster button the head comes in further, the tongue goes out, the ears go back, the tail swishes, he really points his toes and his legs move faster - that is all, in all his work he never once lengthened his stride only made his legs go like jack hammers. All on no contact. Only at the end of his races where it really mattered did you see this beautiful long stride really come to the fore, the head went out, the shoulders dropped, the backend got into gear and he had one hell of an engine. It's just a shame his legs couldn't hack it.

I'll try and get some more recent photos of his work these days. We still have a very long way to go but at least now he is using his backend. The head has dropped down and now just needs refining and most of this is due to trotting poles where he really dropped and lengthened over them to get the idea of what I was asking him to do.

The video is another - how not to do it. The horse is very on the forehand and down hill and the video was taen on his first day out of training. I thought they would be interesting for people to see what may look right but really isn't underneath.

I think I have a video of my dartmoor pony somewhere putting it all together and working in a true outline. I shall try to find it.

 

[redmone]

Hi everyone!

Firstly this has been an awesome thread and I've learnt loads from following and reading it. It's been really interesting (as a non riding mum of pony mad child) comparing my novice thoughts to what's obviously very experienced opinion. There's been a few cases where I've not been too far off the mark, but there's been some where I've been a million miles away!!!

Anyway, I'm going to be brave now and throw a couple of photos of Daughter and Dolly into the mix, for comments and advice.

Getting an outline was never a factor for us (in fact, I've only known what one was in the past few months!) but since they've been competing much more often, they started getting many comments about "lacking bend" "nose poking" and "needs a soften outline" so we sought the advice of some great instructors and have been working on trying to improve.

The general jist I'm getting is that the "way of going" is more important than the head position (which if I understand correctly, should happen - ish - if pony uses body correctly) so daughter is working on getting Dolly straight off her leg, and really active in all paces. Lots of bending exercises, lots of circles and lots of effort to sit nicely and have quiet hands. Does that all sound ok?

Dolly doesn't naturally work this way, but she seems a quick learner and in only a few weeks, is carrying herself much lower (although not round).

So here's the photos for your comments.

before much work was done (you can see these photos were taken end of winter I think)

in canter (seems hardest!)

a couple of weeks ago at the end of a fantastic lessson (sorry this photo is a little dark)


In one lesson, we used the pelham and Daughter was taught how to use double reins. This seemed to help, and was useful because at a couple of shows (show hunter pony - BSPS being one) we were told she should have been in the pelham and double reins, which was frustrating because we've spent 12 months getting her into the snaffle ***sigh***!!!

Can I have your thoughts please? I could probably find a video if it would help.

Just to note, this isn't a major issue for us. Dolly's flexibility has improved massively anyway in the past year so we're just happy that she's healthier and fitter.

Thanks everyone

 

[Alyth]

I have just started reading Mary Wanless's books - she explains it so well.....the book that I have found best to start with is "RWYM Clinic".....you can't have the head without the back is the basis of it..!!!

 

[Wagtail]

Would love some Critique?

Hi there. Your horse is gorgeous. Yes he is on the forehand but this can easily be addressed by a shift in your position. You are tipping forwards which will make it difficult for him to lighten up in front. Part of this may be because he is pulling you down and forward, but this is not his fault. Looking at the pics I would guess you have an instructor (or have had an instructor) who tells you to keep shortening your reins. You are perching on your 'front bottom' rather than your seat bones. Shift your position so that the majority of your weight is in you seat bones. Sit tall and relax your shoulders. Hang your elbows by your side and take up the contact. You will find your reins will have to be quite a bit longer. Keep your elbows bent and use them to take up the slack in the rein rather than leaning forwards with straight arms. If you keep this position then your core will be stronger and it will be harder for your horse to tip you forwards.

 

[Wagtail]

Hi everyone!

Firstly this has been an awesome thread and I've learnt loads from following and reading it. It's been really interesting (as a non riding mum of pony mad child) comparing my novice thoughts to what's obviously very experienced opinion. There's been a few cases where I've not been too far off the mark, but there's been some where I've been a million miles away!!!

Anyway, I'm going to be brave now and throw a couple of photos of Daughter and Dolly into the mix, for comments and advice.

Getting an outline was never a factor for us (in fact, I've only known what one was in the past few months!) but since they've been competing much more often, they started getting many comments about "lacking bend" "nose poking" and "needs a soften outline" so we sought the advice of some great instructors and have been working on trying to improve.

The general jist I'm getting is that the "way of going" is more important than the head position (which if I understand correctly, should happen - ish - if pony uses body correctly) so daughter is working on getting Dolly straight off her leg, and really active in all paces. Lots of bending exercises, lots of circles and lots of effort to sit nicely and have quiet hands. Does that all sound ok?

Dolly doesn't naturally work this way, but she seems a quick learner and in only a few weeks, is carrying herself much lower (although not round).

So here's the photos for your comments.

before much work was done (you can see these photos were taken end of winter I think)

in canter (seems hardest!)

a couple of weeks ago at the end of a fantastic lessson (sorry this photo is a little dark)


In one lesson, we used the pelham and Daughter was taught how to use double reins. This seemed to help, and was useful because at a couple of shows (show hunter pony - BSPS being one) we were told she should have been in the pelham and double reins, which was frustrating because we've spent 12 months getting her into the snaffle ***sigh***!!!

Can I have your thoughts please? I could probably find a video if it would help.

Just to note, this isn't a major issue for us. Dolly's flexibility has improved massively anyway in the past year so we're just happy that she's healthier and fitter.

Thanks everyone

Your daughter has a lovely position. Looking at the pony I suspect that flexing at the poll is not the most easy thing for her as she is quite thick through the throat area. I can see just by looking at her that she will not be the easiest pony to get into a nice working outline. You may think it strange when I say that IMO your daughter is riding with her reins too short, as actually the pony is poking her nose and working in a very strung out outline, and so the natural thing to do is shorten the reins. However, this often just compounds the issue. Look at the lovely bottom photograph. Your daughters reins are actually a good three inches longer and she is nicely taking up the contact by bringing her elbows back. Imagine how much nicer for the horse this feeling is, than a straight, blocking arm? In that photograph, the pony is in a pelham which has poll action and would have helped your daughter to get her to flex. Obviously, it would be nice to get her to do this in a snaffle, but using the pelham occasionally, will allow your daughter to feel what it is like and this will help her achieve the same thing in a snaffle.

 

[Wagtail]

quick question, what do people think of my mares conformation for dressage? she's a 6yro welsh D x. she's been focusing on dressage (as have I!) for about 6 months

I apologise for the stains but she's coloured

she does not work consistently in an outline, but neither do I want her too at this stage. she has moments of it and my #1 focus is getting her working nicely from behind

I know my position is not perfect (tendancy to perch and wandering elbows, plus I'm a knee griper) but I'm working very hard on it

Agree with what Rhino has said. However, the single biggest problem is your arms. You are fixing your hands ridgedly downwards. Yo need to relax your shoulders and hang your elbows by your waist and bend them. Lovely horse!

 

[Wagtail]

Some beautiful horses here!

Phil has never really been asked to work in an outline except for the last two years (he is 12! ), for the most part I try to just get him nicely forward without ducking behind the bit (something he learnt not from me ).

This is the most recent photo I have, he was coming back into work following his SI injury. I'm pretty sure he's on the forehand but that white hind was his bad one and 3 months prior he was snatching it up in walk, let alone tracking up.

Prior to injury

Forward enough

And just for laughs! (he will also do this undersaddle and in canter )

Really loely boy you have! He is nice and foreward and tracking up well. Your position is pretty good and not hindering him in any way. Keep up the good work. I suspects using plenty of transitions and half halts will lighten him up in front, but generally you make a very pleasing picture for novice level.

 

[Wagtail]

Can I play too? Would love some CC: 5yo ex point-to-pointer - I know he is behind the vertical and we are still struggling to find a bit he is happy in, but pics are from our first prelim test, 3 weeks after I got him. That was at the end of May, no recent pics sadly!

He is not really behind the vertical as he is working in a low outline. If he was vertical or slightly in front of it he would be poking his nose. He looks like a lovely mover and very active both in front and behind. He is also bending and stepping through nicely. I think you are doing a very good job.

 

[Wagtail]

I can give some fab examples of a 'bad' outline:
Andy is 13 and only just being asked in the last year or so to work properlly. We've done it all without gadgets the main thing I was aiming for was when I say woah it means woah and when I say go it means go (not so much of an issue) as I wouldn't be able to bring his hind quarters underneath him until he understood this. I always give him a even soft contact to go into and I would push him into it without him going faster.

Both photos are bad as in both he is on the forehand not so much in the first. He is BTV in the second which I hate and he has a tendency to go deep when I ride like a numpty. In both photos he could be tracking up further as well but tbh I'm happy with him as before he would literally go with his ears in your face.

Would love CC on Louie though, he's 6 had a year out.

Working in a longer frame to help build topline

Both not using backend well enough (particularly bottom but I let him off as he was so weak at this stage)

2 weeks later:

Need to get my hand shigher and sit up more and hopefully he'll become lighter on forhand.

Louie is absolutely stunning. You have him working really well over his back in a nice round novice outline. Can't see anything to criticise.