Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Clodagh]

As Sandstone only reads posts from people that agree with her (I assume) it comes out as an odd debate.

 

[palo1]

I am not answerable for the Grove and Rufford and was not present but they have stated that hounds were either called on to or towards the road by sabs or were muddled by sabs horns/gizmos etc. The police are dealing with the incident in that respect. The horse that was bogged in a ditch was taken home, thoroughly checked and shown happily eating a haynet later. As I say, the G&R are not local to me, I am not answerable for them or their conduct but am just saying what has been reported. There is a real sense of anger and distress there over this incident. But clearly practices need to change so that this kind of incident and any conflict are avoided. As for the fat shaming I have been called fat and ugly by a sab when with another hunt. Generally I am not fat and, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder so there you go with that insult too!! It is upsetting to have a stranger shout those things at you. Children have been called scum and all manner of other and worse abusive names. My 13 year old son was accused of some unpleasant sexually related stuff when simply on foot watching a meet not near our home. He was being filmed at the time too. This will be called 'whataboutery' of course but actually it is context; the context of mutual antipathy, abuse and anti-social behaviour resulting from 2 groups of people for whom the related legislation is entirely unsatisfactory. I would really challenge the anti-hunters here to actually consider the way in which they have reviled body shaming and abuse as a 'hunting' thing; it is a conflict thing and never remotely constructive or appropriate.

 

[Millionwords]

I am not answerable for the Grove and Rufford and was not present but they have stated that hounds were either called on to or towards the road by sabs or were muddled by sabs horns/gizmos etc. The police are dealing with the incident in that respect. The horse that was bogged in a ditch was taken home, thoroughly checked and shown happily eating a haynet later. As I say, the G&R are not local to me, I am not answerable for them or their conduct but am just saying what has been reported. There is a real sense of anger and distress there over this incident. But clearly practices need to change so that this kind of incident and any conflict are avoided. As for the fat shaming I have been called fat and ugly by a sab when with another hunt. Generally I am not fat and, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder so there you go with that insult too!! It is upsetting to have a stranger shout those things at you. Children have been called scum and all manner of other and worse abusive names. My 13 year old son was accused of some unpleasant sexually related stuff when simply on foot watching a meet not near our home. He was being filmed at the time too. This will be called 'whataboutery' of course but actually it is context; the context of mutual antipathy, abuse and anti-social behaviour resulting from 2 groups of people for whom the related legislation is entirely unsatisfactory. I would really challenge the anti-hunters here to actually consider the way in which they have reviled body shaming and abuse as a 'hunting' thing; it is a conflict thing and never remotely constructive or appropriate.

Noone is claiming sabs are in the right.
But why is the only response to sabs doing something wrong always to do wrong in return?

This response is also "but sabs do it".

Noone should be doing it. Those with something to lose should be the ones taking the higher ground, not stooping to the lowest common denominator, how does that help?

Eta: i wasn't particularly angry about this particular incident, it was juvenile and pathetic, but i am also not fat, and I can imagine it is hurtful. The person in question didn't look fat, so it makes it even more stupid behavior.

 

[mini_b]

Fwiw I’ve seen thousands of birds thrown in holes because the folk who shot them didn’t want to eat them, just kill them. But of course geese are “pests” and it’s not worth plucking wild ducks…..

really? All the game from the shoots goes to pubs, butchers and restaurants in our area. What doesn’t, is prepared and goes into freezers for the guns/keepers/beaters to collect.

Very strange, *thousands* of birds???

 

[palo1]

Noone is claiming sabs are in the right.
But why is the only response to sabs doing something wrong always to do wrong in return?

This response is also "but sabs do it".

Noone should be doing it. Those with something to lose should be the ones taking the higher ground, not stooping to the lowest common denominator, how does that help?

In my experience, but clearly not universally, people I know that hunt are generally very polite or neutral toward sabs and monitors, they don't want to put up abusive posts on social media and tend to shrug off the occasional bad tempered or abusive contacts with sabs because they (hunters) are not doing anything wrong and they don't want to create further tension. It is extremely difficult to maintain that however when your behaviour or activities are subsequently totally misreported or hashed up to 'create' content. People do feel hugely aggravated and the wrong kind of people lose their cool and forget how much there is to lose in doing so. I have seen some literally crazy behaviour from sabs; it is worrying and angering. Most hunters know that any kind of contact with sabs will likely result in posts on SM - so many will just avoid that. Others sadly, feel that aggression and conflict are way of dealing with that. I struggled to maintain my own resolve when those incidents I mentioned above concerning my son occurred. I felt humiliated, enraged and wildly protective of my child. Thankfully, I was able to deal with that situation. I felt really, physically angry at the time but simply kept making polite requests for the poor and dangerous behaviour to stop. It isn't easy to carry on being the bigger, better person; surely sabs, if they are so sure of this moral high ground should find it really easy??? But the abuse etc etc just carries on. Many people hunting absolutely feel the jeopardy in being out there BUT there is also a conviction that their legal activity must be allowed to continue. There are some really strong narratives on both sides that are compelling; ironically both are around similar things in my view and similar tactics and behaviours abound.

 

[Peglo]

really? All the game from the shoots goes to pubs, butchers and restaurants in our area. What doesn’t, is prepared and goes into freezers for the guns/keepers/beaters to collect.

Very strange, *thousands* of birds???

I worked at the butchers that dealt with the shot birds from shooting parties. Some were debreasted that were shot but yeah in the years we’ve had the cull up here easily thousands of birds were buried. And so many of the breasts ended up rotten as the parties didn’t take them with them and there’s no demand for it. Up here they are ‘pests’ as they have stopped migrating and unsurprisingly they are eating goose food that farmers planted unaware (being geese and that) that it wasn’t for them but instead for cattle. It was the smaller fowl that I found even sadder though. They didn’t destroy crops, they aren’t pests and didn’t do anything to deserve to be shot and left to rot. But as long as the folk up on holiday had fun slaughtering them that’s the main thing. ETA and the locals taking the parties out!! (And let’s not go into the stoat eradication scheme costing millions to protect said birds, which I’m no opposed to but why are they being shot then…. ??‍)

on the other hand whaps (or curlews to those sooth) are thriving here and numbers are ever increasing. It’s got nothing to do with organised shoots and land management but I dare say the fact shooters don’t shoot them doesn’t hurt.

I’m also not opposed to shooting to eat. Me fither would shoot a goose or pheasant for tea and I enjoyed it but seeing the sheer amount of wasted life was so sad and I’m so glad I don’t see it now although i know it still goes on.

anyway sorry for the rant. I just don’t know where wildlife are supposed to go when we humans claim all the land for ever expanding cities and farming to feed the expanding population.

EETA I never said in my earlier post that there’s a cull up here so sorry for part information. I forgot to add details as I focus a bit much on the dead birds.

 

[Peglo]

In my experience, but clearly not universally, people I know that hunt are generally very polite or neutral toward sabs and monitors, they don't want to put up abusive posts on social media and tend to shrug off the occasional bad tempered or abusive contacts with sabs because they (hunters) are not doing anything wrong and they don't want to create further tension. It is extremely difficult to maintain that however when your behaviour or activities are subsequently totally misreported or hashed up to 'create' content. People do feel hugely aggravated and the wrong kind of people lose their cool and forget how much there is to lose in doing so. I have seen some literally crazy behaviour from sabs; it is worrying and angering. Most hunters know that any kind of contact with sabs will likely result in posts on SM - so many will just avoid that. Others sadly, feel that aggression and conflict are way of dealing with that. I struggled to maintain my own resolve when those incidents I mentioned above concerning my son occurred. I felt humiliated, enraged and wildly protective of my child. Thankfully, I was able to deal with that situation. I felt really, physically angry at the time but simply kept making polite requests for the poor and dangerous behaviour to stop. It isn't easy to carry on being the bigger, better person; surely sabs, if they are so sure of this moral high ground should find it really easy??? But the abuse etc etc just carries on. Many people hunting absolutely feel the jeopardy in being out there BUT there is also a conviction that their legal activity must be allowed to continue. There are some really strong narratives on both sides that are compelling; ironically both are around similar things in my view and similar tactics and behaviours abound.

I really feel for you P. You’re so passionate for your sport and always speak so well.
I shouldn’t have any input as I’ve never been hunting, pre or post ban and would never hunt a fox but I love the idea of trail hunting. Reading this thread with both sides has been really informative from a neutral position.

honestly I’d love to trail hunt and would travel off island to do it BUT not if they used fox scent. The idea of legal trail hunting sounds like a brilliant day out with your horse and with hounds but I can’t agree with the need for that scent. I’ve read your point on the scent but for the sake of the sport I feel changing the scent to something artificial or even to an animal not native (camel, kangaroo?) might save it.

 

[suestowford]

I'm intrigued by Palo's comment about people Palo knows who hunt being generally polite or neutral towards sabs. I am not a sab, nor am I a hunter, just someone who has come across hunts from time to time. polite is not a term I would use for them! Maybe they save it for the sabs, they certainly don't waste it on anybody else.

 

[palo1]

I really feel for you P. You’re so passionate for your sport and always speak so well.
I shouldn’t have any input as I’ve never been hunting, pre or post ban and would never hunt a fox but I love the idea of trail hunting. Reading this thread with both sides has been really informative from a neutral position.

honestly I’d love to trail hunt and would travel off island to do it BUT not if they used fox scent. The idea of legal trail hunting sounds like a brilliant day out with your horse and with hounds but I can’t agree with the need for that scent. I’ve read your point on the scent but for the sake of the sport I feel changing the scent to something artificial or even to an animal not native (camel, kangaroo?) might save it.

Thank you for your kind words! A good day's trail hunting is a brilliant, challenging, social and exhilarating experience - watching hounds work and hearing their music is really an amazing thing. I agree with you too about the use of scent; I would have no problem at all with using a different scent though the use of another animal's scent is problematic if only because of the issues with provenance. I think at times people have suggested alternatives which would provide a good natural challenge but you would have to choose something which didn't potentially encourage hounds to riot. I quite like the idea of camel scent (are there enough camels in the UK to provide, without welfare issues, enough wee /wee soaked straw/shavings I wonder? Certainly shouldn't be an issue with riot there in most places lol!!) I mean, what would you choose that can be ethically sourced and still have integrity as a natural challenge? My retired trail hound loved aniseed and that could be used but for many hunters, there is a reluctance to move away from the unique elements that a natural animal scent brings. And then, of course, there is the principal which many folk are stuck on.

 

[Clodagh]

BITD I was always polite to sabs. They scared the bejesus out of me, which was entirely their intention (pre ban).
However general ignorance, like not recognising crops and blocking roads, was a big plus in my reasons to stop.

 

[palo1]

I'm intrigued by Palo's comment about people Palo knows who hunt being generally polite or neutral towards sabs. I am not a sab, nor am I a hunter, just someone who has come across hunts from time to time. polite is not a term I would use for them! Maybe they save it for the sabs, they certainly don't waste it on anybody else.

Do you think I have been rude on this thread (or any others)? I am asking because your post suggests that you haven't come across any polite hunters.

 

[palo1]

BITD I was always polite to sabs. They scared the bejesus out of me, which was entirely their intention (pre ban).
However general ignorance, like not recognising crops and blocking roads, was a big plus in my reasons to stop.

Yes, those things are very poor. They would not be tolerated here so I have no idea why they occur in other places!

 

[rextherobber]

I really feel for you P. You’re so passionate for your sport and always speak so well.
I shouldn’t have any input as I’ve never been hunting, pre or post ban and would never hunt a fox but I love the idea of trail hunting. Reading this thread with both sides has been really informative from a neutral position.

honestly I’d love to trail hunt and would travel off island to do it BUT not if they used fox scent. The idea of legal trail hunting sounds like a brilliant day out with your horse and with hounds but I can’t agree with the need for that scent. I’ve read your point on the scent but for the sake of the sport I feel changing the scent to something artificial or even to an animal not native (camel, kangaroo?) might save it.

Why don't you go out with the Bloodhounds?

 

[palo1]

As well as this (which regards gamekeeping) , CPS has dismissed evidence against the Wynnstay because those providing the filmed evidence refused to testify in court...

 

[palo1]

Bloodhounding is GREAT fun though different in some ways to trailhunting. Bloodhounds have tremendous charisma too.

 

[Koweyka]

As well as this (which regards gamekeeping) , CPS has dismissed evidence against the Wynnstay because those providing the filmed evidence refused to testify in court...

Because the witness was absolutely terrified of repercussions from the hunt and made that clear prior to the trial, have you actually seen the footage that was filmed ?

 

[Millionwords]

As well as this (which regards gamekeeping) , CPS has dismissed evidence against the Wynnstay because those providing the filmed evidence refused to testify in court...

Most (edit ALL) of that footage is from hunts?

The only violence illustrated is from a boxing day hunt meet when both sides were questioned by the police.

Its like saying as a nurse you experience violence and persecution then showing footage of a scrap between a drunk and the police. And some footage of people on the street.

I'm sure some people do experience it, but if youre going to make a mini documentary about it, then you should have used something actually relevant.
Its made for people within the sport, rather than the general public, which just seems its intent is to cause frothing at the mouth and more conflict.

 

[Millionwords]

Because the witness was absolutely terrified of repercussions from the hunt and made that clear prior to the trial, have you actually seen the footage that was filmed ?

Which incident was this the running over, or a different one? Can you provide a link? (Just curious)

 

[Sandstone1]

As Sandstone only reads posts from people that agree with her (I assume) it comes out as an odd debate.

I do have most of you on UI simply because I have heard all your " justifications" for people continuing a ILLEGAL activinty. I am talking about Fox hunting with hounds here just to be clear.
It does not matter what you all say we all know the fox hunting goes on. We know trail hunting is simply a smokescreen for fox hunting. Most hunts are continuing to hunt as they did pre ban. It is happening. Hunts are hunting along main roads, they are clearly hunting foxes. Does the video of a hound dying not affect you, does the sight of a horse stuck in a ditch not worry you?
Does a group of people calling someone fatty seem right to you? No one has answered that question.
The video that Palo1 has posted is interesting. Turn that on its head..... It could also apply to sabs. They are protesting against a ILLEGAL activiity. Its hunts that are participating in something that against the law.
How people that do this can call themselves animal lovers I do not know.
Yes sabs may have faults but you are all forgetting what hunts are doing is against the law. It makes anyone that participates a criminal.
I have decided to not post on this thread again. It simply goes round in circles. I have put pro hunters on UI again. Its not because I like to be right, or do not want to debate. Its simply because I have heard all the debates, all the excuses. The plain fact is the law is being broken, hunting will never come back in the way you want it to. Trail hunting will be banned and thats because of the behaviour of hunts breaking the law.
No one will change their minds because of this thread. Its simply a waste of time and effort.

 

[Clodagh]

@Sandstone1. I think I’m on ui but I did say it was awful behaviour. Trouble with editing so what you see is positive is you are missing relevant points.

 

[ycbm]

Why don't you go out with the Bloodhounds?

There aren't very many bloodhounds packs and the one I know of that might just about be doable for me as a journey time about twice a year has a limited field and was difficult to secure a place with at the time I was looking. At that time, they also required membership of the Coutryside Alliance, which told you everything you needed to know about their attitude to hunting fox. They also had a very short season. Bloodhounding is not a direct, or feasible, substitute for trail hunting for most people.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

CPS has dismissed evidence against the Wynnstay because those providing the filmed evidence refused to testify in court...

You'd need balls of steel to testify, as a local, in court against that hunt.

 

[palo1]

The point I was making, or trying to make, with the Gamekeeper's video was that this Sab harrassment is on a LEGAL activity. There is no justification whatsoever for sabbing shoots, shooting days, pheasant pens etc etc regardless of how you feel about the ethics of shooting. The way in which sabbing culture has taken this kind of activity as their 'right' is absolutely no different to the vile and illegal behaviour that they are acting against. 2 wrongs dont make a right anytime at all.

As for the witness re: The Wynnstay being intimidated, I understand they may feel so (though I have no connection to and not much knowledge of that hunt) but the police are aware of the context, will advise and support as necessary and why would the sab group try to take that particular evidence to court if the witness clearly felt unable to testify? Surely that is a waste of everyone's time and is upping the ante for the frightened witness? On the flip side of that, IF the evidence was compelling, then surely the best way to deal with that intimidation would be to testify and to get a conviction? It just seems like time wasting and not especially compelling evidence to me.

 

[ycbm]

the police are aware of the context, will advise and support as necessary

Sorry Palo this is naive.

Only last week the Police were apologising for failing to respond to repeated reports of an ex stalking his wife, or to respond quickly enough to the 999 call made by her mother on the night he killed her.
.

 

[ycbm]

that particular evidence to court if the witness clearly felt unable to testify?

There was video wasn't there?
.

 

[palo1]

There was video wasn't there?
.

I guess so but I suppose the witness wasn't prepared to testify in person about aspects of the video (possibly?) or to verify it's integrity. So that makes it impossible to pursue. I get your point about the police, I really do and it is very worrying that the police are unable to respond to very immediate life threatening situations. Perhaps the sabs don't think the police think the threat is serious enough to provide any support - I don't know. But it is another 'promised' conviction that simply won't happen and that just reinforces the trope that sabs are wasting time and unable to provide evidence in court of the illegal hunting they say is going on. Every time that happens it reinforces some people's view that sabs are essentially making it up, exaggerating, tampering with evidence or haven't really got evidence of the crimes they are shouting about.

 

[Koweyka]

Which incident was this the running over, or a different one? Can you provide a link? (Just curious)

The video that was filmed of the Wynnstay is on the Cheshire Monitors Facebook page, unfortunately the witness was very intimidated and was too scared to give evidence, when the main footage can’t be used it seemed a strange decision to take it to court knowing the evidence would be dismissed. It’s extremely blatant hunting though.

 

[Koweyka]

The point I was making, or trying to make, with the Gamekeeper's video was that this Sab harrassment is on a LEGAL activity. There is no justification whatsoever for sabbing shoots, shooting days, pheasant pens etc etc regardless of how you feel about the ethics of shooting. The way in which sabbing culture has taken this kind of activity as their 'right' is absolutely no different to the vile and illegal behaviour that they are acting against. 2 wrongs dont make a right anytime at all.

As for the witness re: The Wynnstay being intimidated, I understand they may feel so (though I have no connection to and not much knowledge of that hunt) but the police are aware of the context, will advise and support as necessary and why would the sab group try to take that particular evidence to court if the witness clearly felt unable to testify? Surely that is a waste of everyone's time and is upping the ante for the frightened witness? On the flip side of that, IF the evidence was compelling, then surely the best way to deal with that intimidation would be to testify and to get a conviction? It just seems like time wasting and not especially compelling evidence to me.

It was the police and CPS that decided to push this case knowing the witness was too scared to give evidence, you all talk about sab intimidation well this was hunt intimidation at its finest.

 

[Koweyka]

The hunt I monitored yesterday made two malicious 999 calls within the first half an hour, wasting police time especially when video evidence was produced at the scene to prove they were liars. The police are going to have words with this hunt as their default now is to blow for the off and ring 999 for whatever fantasy they have cooked up while swigging from their hip flasks.

 

[suestowford]

Do you think I have been rude on this thread (or any others)? I am asking because your post suggests that you haven't come across any polite hunters.

No I don't think you have been rude on this thread and that's not what I meant. I was referring to people following hunts in real life. And then only to those I have happened across while I've been out & about, or those who have been past my house when I've been at home. And yes, in real life I have yet to meet anyone following a hunt who I would describe as polite. Foot/car followers mainly but the occasional person on a horse.
Maybe they don't realise how badly they come across, and maybe this is something you don't see if you are up in front with the hounds, but the hunt followers do a lot of damage to hunting's reputation.
I have yet to see a sab 'in the wild' so can't comment on them from my own experience.