Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Equine_Dream]

Do you know what I'm sorry but this needs saying. As someone who hunts with a legal pack I for one have had a complete titful of this. Regardless of whether you think the ban should be lifted, the fact remains there IS a ban. I'm tired of hunts like this letting the side down for legal trail hunts. We are all tarred with the same brush because of these reckless actions.
I'm sorry but I think fox hunting is very much a dying past time. Pressure from growing public opinion and lack of support from land owners mean it is becoming harder to hunt foxes. I think hunts like this accept times are changing and move with them. Or all hunts legal or not will be condemned to the history books.
It makes me so angry when packs like ours have worked to hard to ensure we hunt within the law, yet it will all be for nothing when a total ban, which is becoming increasingly likely, will come into force.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Apologies if any of my ramblings make little to no sense. I've been working my way through a minuture gin selection box this afternoon..... the rhubarb and blackberry is a particular favourite I must say

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Do you know what I'm sorry but this needs saying. As someone who hunts with a legal pack I for one have had a complete titful of this. Regardless of whether you think the ban should be lifted, the fact remains there IS a ban. I'm tired of hunts like this letting the side down for legal trail hunts. We are all tarred with the same brush because of these reckless actions.
I'm sorry but I think fox hunting is very much a dying past time. Pressure from growing public opinion and lack of support from land owners mean it is becoming harder to hunt foxes. I think hunts like this accept times are changing and move with them. Or all hunts legal or not will be condemned to the history books.
It makes me so angry when packs like ours have worked to hard to ensure we hunt within the law, yet it will all be for nothing when a total ban, which is becoming increasingly likely, will come into force.

Sadly I think you are right. The ones who play by the rules will always be let down and tarred with the same brush as those who don't. The public will not side with the good hunts, the papers won't either because the bigger story is the ones who don't behave.

Aylesbury is indeed in Tier 4 and therefore should not have been out hunting today regardless of the shenanigans that went on. They are making themselves look incredibly stupid and selfish.

The hunting up here in Scotland is awful. I'm not going to lie. It's very much a glorified farm ride with hounds for company. I think the last time the hounds even looked at a live fox up here was when they were actually allowed to maul them. They have no interest and do genuinely follow the Master like a normal pet dog would.

I do feel for the hunts who do it properly but I can see a day at some point in the next decade where all forms of hunting with hounds will be banned. I am sure organised trail rides could go ahead with the same dress code but there would be no hounds present. And what would you do with all of them then? There would be uproar if they were all pts. They aren't designed to be pets.

 

[Equine_Dream]

The question of what would happen to all those hounds should a complete ban be enforced, is something that truly troubles me ?

 

[palo1]

Surely they should be cancelled? I know its outside but places like riding schools are mostly having individual lessons so how is this allowed to continue- there are way more than in a group rs lesson...

Yes it may be seen as outside but surely everyone should be doing what they can to prevent the spread- I believe in tier 4 you can only meet 1 person not in your household outside- so I could only meet 1 parent in a park, yet I could go off on a jolly to go hunting with way more people that I don't know....

I keep an eye on the local blood hounding pack's Facebook page so I can avoid hacking if they are nearby, and they have cancelled Xmas eve and boxing day meets due to tier 4.

It's old footage and those committing the crimes were prosecuted.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It's old footage and those committing the crimes were prosecuted.

The footage of the fox being rodded out of the drain by stooges who were given their orders by unidentified persons is old, IIRC New Year’s Day 2019. The hunt stooges were prosecuted and found guilty, but those who gave them their orders as to when to rod out the fox (as the Kimblewick hounds approached) were not. The stooges got lighter sentences as the judge recognised that they were acting under orders.

This latest footage of the Kimblewick as shown on ITV last night is not dated, I think? But it’s the first time I’ve seen it, it’s more recent. There was plenty of time to try and call hounds off the fox, but then the hunt were after the kill, weren’t they. This was no trail hunt gone wrong, this is fox hunting, on land where they were not welcome.

From The Independent. The Kimblewick Hunt told ITV its riders stopped the hounds as soon as they realised they were not following the trail, and that they removed the hounds and carcass as quickly as possible.

Take it from someone who has fox hunted pre ban. Those hounds were not being called off that fox.

 

[Wishfilly]

Do you know what I'm sorry but this needs saying. As someone who hunts with a legal pack I for one have had a complete titful of this. Regardless of whether you think the ban should be lifted, the fact remains there IS a ban. I'm tired of hunts like this letting the side down for legal trail hunts. We are all tarred with the same brush because of these reckless actions.
I'm sorry but I think fox hunting is very much a dying past time. Pressure from growing public opinion and lack of support from land owners mean it is becoming harder to hunt foxes. I think hunts like this accept times are changing and move with them. Or all hunts legal or not will be condemned to the history books.
It makes me so angry when packs like ours have worked to hard to ensure we hunt within the law, yet it will all be for nothing when a total ban, which is becoming increasingly likely, will come into force.

It does seem like more and more big landowners and councils are not allowing hunts on their land due to the recent bad press- I'm not sure if this is being extended to drag hunts and bloodhounds too. Having nowhere to hunt will, in effect, ban hunting.

I do agree that it is not fair on those who hunt legally to lose out too.

I think, given the recent bad press, all hunts need to be making an effort to be whiter than white and comply with all laws (including coronavirus tier rules).

 

[Tiddlypom]

The question of what would happen to all those hounds should a complete ban be enforced, is something that truly troubles me ?

But those who carry on fox hunting don’t care, do they? Even if every last hound is put down after hunting is finally banned they won’t care, apart from the shedding of crocodile tears, as long as they had their fun when they could.

 

[Wishfilly]

The footage of the fox being rodded out of the drain by stooges who were given their orders by unidentified persons is old, IIRC New Year’s Day 2019. The hunt stooges were prosecuted and found guilty, but those who gave them their orders as to when to rod out the fox (as the Kimblewick hounds approached) were not. The stooges got lighter sentences as the judge recognised that they were acting under orders.

This latest footage of the Kimblewick as shown on ITV last night is not dated, I think? But it’s the first time I’ve seen it, it’s more recent. There was plenty of time to try and call hounds off the fox, but then the hunt were after the kill, weren’t they. This was no trail hunt gone wrong, this is fox hunting, on land where they were not welcome.

View attachment 62086

Twitter seems to think the latest footage is from boxing day, although I am not sure if that is correct.

As well as clearly hunting the fox, I thought the actions of the hunt staff seemed very reckless- it didn't really seem like a safe place to be riding horses or having lots of hounds running around and had someone been working on the site, it could have caused a nasty accident.

I think it's very clear they weren't expecting to be filmed from so many angles!

 

[Upthecreek]

Why as a landowner would you allow hunting on your land? The damage caused by horses galloping across wet fields for no benefit makes me wonder why on earth some still allow it. I am not anti hunt and I used to hunt when it was legal to hunt foxes, but it baffles me why it is still happening.

 

[Steerpike]

I've seen a few videos of someone following the bloodhounds on my Facebook feed and the lack of respect some of the riders have whilst riding over sopping wet ground makes me cringe, if I was a land owner I would not be happy.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

Re the video clip in post 439 - the absolute arrogance and don't-give-a-shit attitude of these huntsman riding on (and allowing their pack of dogs to run on) private property where they have no permission to ride is astonishing.

I'm sorry for the genuine legal hunts, although they need to start distancing themselves very very loudly from packs like these. I have no idea how they run, but if I were in charge of a legal hunt I would not be affiliated with any hunting governing body that also has the Kimblewick (and other notorious illegal hunting packs) as their members. I would want to sever all ties - IMO if they want to survive, they need the public on their side and they need to start with the PR whether they like it or not.

 

[Kipper's Dick]

I've seen a few videos of someone following the bloodhounds on my Facebook feed and the lack of respect some of the riders have whilst riding over sopping wet ground makes me cringe, if I was a land owner I would not be happy.

And some of them are certainly not happy. If you venture onto The Farmers Forum, as I do occasionally, a recent thread showed a photo, posted by an irate landowner, of a wide track of hoof prints across a planted field. He hadn't been too averse up until then. The hunt in question planned to try to rectify the damage. But it comes down to ineffective field-mastering. A lot of mounted hunt followers wouldn't know a field of crops from a sausage. And I think one of the reasons that hunts are still tolerated on land is that quite a few landowners might hunt themselves, either following on horseback, quad bike, etc.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Twitter seems to think the latest footage is from boxing day, although I am not sure if that is correct.

Ah, just checked the report in the Independent, and this latest filmed kill was on 12 Dec.

Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire Hunt Sabs called on Thames Valley Police to conduct “a robust and fair investigation into the killing of a fox by the Kimblewick” on 12 December.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...alley-police-kimblewick-b1779307.html?r=94156

 

[ycbm]

And some of them are certainly not happy. If you venture onto The Farmers Forum, as I do occasionally, a recent thread showed a photo, posted by an irate landowner, of a wide track of hoof prints across a planted field. He hadn't been too averse up until then. The hunt in question planned to try to rectify the damage. But it comes down to ineffective field-mastering. A lot of mounted hunt followers wouldn't know a field of crops from a sausage. And I think one of the reasons that hunts are still tolerated on land is that quite a few landowners might hunt themselves, either following on horseback, quad bike, etc.

I was out with a drag pack when I personally heard the following conversation.

Field Master to Huntsmant/pack owner - the farmer asked us to stay off the hay crop and keep to the headland
- well we're here now.

It was the beginning of the end for me and hunting, there were over 50 riders galloping across the whole width of that field.

 

[Wishfilly]

Ah, just checked the report in the Independent, and this latest filmed kill was on 12 Dec.

Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire Hunt Sabs called on Thames Valley Police to conduct “a robust and fair investigation into the killing of a fox by the Kimblewick” on 12 December.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...alley-police-kimblewick-b1779307.html?r=94156

Good to know they weren't also breaking Covid rules then!

I hope, if nothing else, the landowners bring a civil case for tresspass.

The area they were riding round looked like it could be used for workmen etc. Taking dogs and horses through could have caused a nasty accident for someone in different circumstances.

I agree that legal hunts need to absolutely start distancing themselves from the hunts acting illegally if they want to survive- including drag hunts and bloodhounds condemning illegal behaviour. But from the recent web seminar, I think a lot of "trail" hunts must be sometimes acting illegally- even if they aren't as blatant about it as the Kimblewick.

 

[Kipper's Dick]

I was out with a drag pack when I personally heard the following conversation.

Field Master to Huntsmant/pack owner - the farmer asked us to stay off the hay crop and keep to the headland
- well we're here now.

It was the beginning of the end for me and hunting, there were over 50 riders galloping across the whole width of that field.

And the very thought of this makes me cringe (coming from a farming family). But a field master should be 'he that is obeyed'. I've hunted with packs where transgressors were sent home (pre- ban, but things should be no different now). And given a huge rollicking before they went. Which is as it should be, mounted followers were quite fearful of doing the wrong thing. Trail hunts now should be working exceptionally hard at the PR side of things. They've no one but themselves to blame if it all goes tits up.

 

[Sandstone1]

At the risk of pretty much being told again to get off the forum if I am anti hunting (which I fairly recently have been) I would point out that the local pack have recently been out with over 100 followers which surely breaks Covid rules?
We are in tier 3 here. Why can they get away with that? They also often cause disruption on local roads. They also often openly hunt fox. Nothing seems to stop them.

 

[EstherYoung]

Apparently, hunts are exempt from rules outside of tier 4. Not sure what makes them special compared to other horsey events which are not allowed, but there you go!

Outdoor sporting activity is now permitted in England in tiers 1-3, with the only limit on participants being the number who can safely be accommodated taking social distancing etc into account - and there must be a covid compliant risk assessment for each event to show that the Covid risks have been mitigated. The exemption only applies whilst participating in the sport, so no socialising outside the rules for your tier (6 or one household or whatever) before or after.

If hunting is deemed to be an organised sport, they'll fall within the same exemption as every other sport.

No organised sport is permitted in T4, only individual exercise.

There's also a travel restriction in T3, in that you're not meant to leave your area. Although that's only guidance, insurance companies have indicated that they may nullify insurance if guidance isn't followed.

 

[Sandstone1]

Outdoor sporting activity is now permitted in England in tiers 1-3, with the only limit on participants being the number who can safely be accommodated taking social distancing etc into account - and there must be a covid compliant risk assessment for each event to show that the Covid risks have been mitigated. The exemption only applies whilst participating in the sport, so no socialising outside the rules for your tier (6 or one household or whatever) before or after.

If hunting is deemed to be an organised sport, they'll fall within the same exemption as every other sport.

No organised sport is permitted in T4, only individual exercise.

There's also a travel restriction in T3, in that you're not meant to leave your area. Although that's only guidance, insurance companies have indicated that they may nullify insurance if guidance isn't followed.

So 100 riders with no social distancing is ok?

 

[EstherYoung]

So 100 riders with no social distancing is ok?

I'm not saying whether what you saw is within the rules or not, just pointing out what the rules are. All sports are meant to have published and approved guidelines as to how they can operate safely. So the question is, does hunting have such guidance and was it followed?

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm not saying whether what you saw is within the rules or not, just pointing out what the rules are. All sports are meant to have published and approved guidelines as to how they can operate safely. So the question is, does hunting have such guidance and was it followed?

Thank you, I cant see how it can be right in these times to have a gathering that large with no distancing. I doubt they followed any rules as this hunt seems to do what it likes and get away with it too.

 

[EstherYoung]

Thank you, I cant see how it can be right in these times to have a gathering that large with no distancing. I doubt they followed any rules as this hunt seems to do what it likes and get away with it too.

https://www.countryside-alliance.org/news/2020/12/guidance-on-tiered-restrictions-for-hunting-in-eng

https://thehuntingoffice.org.uk/covid

 

[Old school]

I loved hunting and live in a jurisdiction where it is legal. I always thought of hunting being necessary to control rogue foxes. So it was a specific task. Not just randomly killing when possible. A couple of things turning me off.. 1. An over zealous huntsman. I cannot go into detail, but he spent many hours pointedly working to kill one fox. Totally unnecessary. 2. On my first day out this season, most of the members could not so much as open a gate - what I mean is they have no relationship with any farmers or landowners. So a small minority are working voluntarily to accommodate people who want to amuse themselves with no clue of the countryside or how to conduct themselves. Feel fairly depressed at the reality dawning in my head.

 

[meleeka]

Thank you, I cant see how it can be right in these times to have a gathering that large with no distancing. I doubt they followed any rules as this hunt seems to do what it likes and get away with it too.

I find this incredible that my OH can’t go out with his usual mountain biking friends but he could go hunting on horseback, or even follow a hunt on foot with the same group of friends.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I find this incredible that my OH can’t go out with his usual mountain biking friends but he could go hunting on horseback, or even follow a hunt on foot with the same group of friends.

Completely agree, why are they getting special privilages?

 

[palo1]

I find this incredible that my OH can’t go out with his usual mountain biking friends but he could go hunting on horseback, or even follow a hunt on foot with the same group of friends.

Trail Hunting is identified as organised outdoor sport which is why it is ok for it to go ahead. Trail hunts, Blood hound packs, Drag hound packs are all required to complete a risk assessment and an event management plan which will identify the Covid Compliance Officers for that event. Those named individuals are responsible by law for Covid Compliance and should carry the can for anything which is not as it should be. Organised sports are also required to have 1 Covid Compliance officer for every 30 participants. Up to a couple of thousand spectators are allowed at sporting events under the rules also.

The MFHA are checking Covid Compliance and require evidence of the paperwork which also must be destroyed under GDPR rules after 21 days. I know this as I have done exactly this task for our local Trail Hunt (who are NOT hunting illegally). We are not hunting currently but at the last meet we had a member of the MFHA attend, check that everyone had hand sanitiser and masks (in case of accidents or unavoidable close contact with another individual) as well as checking the paperwork (Risk Assessment and Event management plan).

This is essentially the difference between a group of friends meeting and organised sport - in an organised sporting setting there are people who must be accountable by law and identifiable through a clear organisational structure for these things and that is not possible with a group of friends.

 

[Clodagh]

I don’t think you can hunt in tier 4.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I don’t think you can hunt in tier 4.

Spot on.
Our local trail hunt and the drag pack both posted up cessation notices when our county went into tier 4 before xmas.

 

[Clodagh]

Spot on.
Our local trail hunt and the drag pack both posted up cessation notices when our county went into tier 4 before xmas.

Ours have certainly stopped. I doubt that footage was Boxing Day if it was in a tier 4.