Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Wishfilly]

At the risk of pretty much being told again to get off the forum if I am anti hunting (which I fairly recently have been) I would point out that the local pack have recently been out with over 100 followers which surely breaks Covid rules?
We are in tier 3 here. Why can they get away with that? They also often cause disruption on local roads. They also often openly hunt fox. Nothing seems to stop them.

Organised outdoor sport is allowed in any numbers outside of tier 4, although a risk assessment is needed and rules around social distancing etc should be adhered to. People are not supposed to travel between tiers to take part in organised sporting events, though.

I am not really sure hunts with 100 people present are what was in mind when the guidance was written though! I, personally, think there should be an upper limit at least.

I don’t think you can hunt in tier 4.

In tier 4, you're only allowed to meet one other person during your "exercise". Theoretically, I suppose, you could go for ride with hounds in a pair, but a large, organised hunt would be breaking the rules.

 

[Wishfilly]

Ours have certainly stopped. I doubt that footage was Boxing Day if it was in a tier 4.

I think we've established it was from earlier in December- but given they are trespassing and appearing to hunt the fox, I'm not sure we can assume they will follow other laws?

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I think we've established it was from earlier in December- but given they are trespassing and appearing to hunt the fox, I'm not sure we can assume they will follow other laws?

The Kimblewick are long time (many many years) notorious for not sticking to any rules, most other hunts advise their followers not to visit the K for various reasons.....

 

[Clodagh]

I think we've established it was from earlier in December- but given they are trespassing and appearing to hunt the fox, I'm not sure we can assume they will follow other laws?

Sorry, I didn’t read the whole thread.
That’ll learn me!

 

[BeckyFlowers]

The Kimblewick are long time (many many years) notorious for not sticking to any rules, most other hunts advise their followers not to visit the K for various reasons.....

Then they should be saying this not only to their members, but everyone, and very loudly. By acknowledging the Kimblewick's woeful behaviour (telling their own followers not to get involved with the Kimblewick) but doing nothing else they are enabling the Kimblewick's behaviour and will, in effect, eventually kipper themselves.

 

[pixie]

As mentioned above, they are not helping themselves with farmers either: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...-followers-exempt-from-all-laws.332132/page-7

 

[Wishfilly]

Sorry, I didn’t read the whole thread.
That’ll learn me!

No worries- it's a long thread!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Then they should be saying this not only to their members, but everyone, and very loudly. By acknowledging the Kimblewick's woeful behaviour (telling their own followers not to get involved with the Kimblewick) but doing nothing else they are enabling the Kimblewick's behaviour and will, in effect, eventually kipper themselves.

Likely they possibly are. Who knows? A big assumption in your post in what others should be doing.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

Likely they possibly are. Who knows? A big assumption in your post in what others should be doing.

I'm assuming that legal hunts want to continue, silly me.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

I'm assuming that legal hunts want to continue, silly me.

I'm sure they do.

 

[Indy]

As mentioned above, they are not helping themselves with farmers either: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...-followers-exempt-from-all-laws.332132/page-7

This exact same thing happened to us 2 year ago on Boxing Day. The came across drilled land, worried our sheep and sent my old horses stratospheric. They've never had permission to come over our land and by the time I'd done with them they were a sad sorry lot. They don't come this way out anymore.

 

[Upthecreek]

You would have thought that bearing in mind many landowners don’t allow hunting on their land these days that hunts would behave impeccably on the land they are allowed on. Er no. In my area they have ridden rough shod over crops, caused sheep to abort lambs, left gates open resulting in livestock getting out onto roads and run across land they were specifically asked not to go on because they “couldn’t stop the hounds” ? Needless to say there are huge areas of country they are now banned from and they only have themselves to blame.

 

[Wishfilly]

Another hunt behaving really irresponsibly: https://www.peterboroughmatters.co....ng-group-sorry-for-crematorium-incident-33050

In this case, I don't think it matters if what they were doing was legal or not, or if they were allowed on the land or not. The hunt should have shown respect for the funeral, called their hounds off and gone elsewhere.

 

[Tiddlypom]

In this case, I don't think it matters if what they were doing was legal or not, or if they were allowed on the land or not. The hunt should have shown respect for the funeral, called their hounds off and gone elsewhere.

It sounds like someone did try and call the hounds off, and in doing so they disrupted the funeral even more . What was the hunt doing ‘laying a trail ‘ anywhere near a crematorium, where several funerals a day are regularly held?

I was there, it was my auntie’s funeral when they sent about 20 or 30 hounds chasing a fox through the crematorium when there was a funeral in progress.”

Another added: “Absolutely disgusting behaviour from the Fitzwilliam red coat fox hunters today… You could hear the fox howl as it escaped the woods and ran for safety into the crematorium to be followed by dogs charging across the road and into the crem too.

"As if these times aren’t hard enough without a convoy of dogs you also had some idiot in his red coat on horse back darting up and down screaming and shouting without a care in the world for those families saying goodbye to their loved ones”.

 

[Sandstone1]

Its one thing after another with hunting. How many time are they going to be caught doing illegal things before they are stopped?

 

[Tiddlypom]

This is Hunting UK, which seems to be one of the most measured pro hunting Facebook pages, has been getting grief after the recent ITV item on the Kimblewick Hunt.

TiHUK would like to advise you that today due to a Hunting related incident being reported on ITN the night before last, we have as a result received vile and vicious abuse on unprecedented levels.

Firstly we would like to take this opportunity of reassuring our followers we have all day been taking decisive action and as a result are still continuing to deal with the situation. This is by deleting, banning and reporting to Facebook and the Police.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And now another pet cat killing incident - the 2 year old cat being on her owner’s property in Bakewell. Hounds broke into the owner’s yard when on hound exercise, dragged the cat out from under a car where she had run to hide, and killed her.

The High Peak Hunt again, where almost the whole pack recently rioted onto a calf and chased that calf across several fields.

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/hounds-riot-onto-calf.797034/

First rioting onto livestock, now domestic pets. What the freeking heck is going on? Time to disband, I think. The High Peak are not denying the incident.

The hunt has been in contact with the cat owner and apologised unreservedly for the distress this has caused.

RIP Spider

Spoiler

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...cBhA8KX4rNq0ya1ewLxxNUnq7L1llrrAzHlm3CJqVwoNM

 

[Steerpike]

If they cannot control the hounds, which seems obvious after these two incidents they should not be allowed to take them out and be disbanded.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

Christ that's awful.

 

[Wishfilly]

That sounds really upsetting for the owner of the cat.

It sounds like the hounds have tried to get onto the property before, and this time they succeeded. Surely if the hunt cannot control their hounds, they are subject to the same legislation regarding dangerous dogs as the rest of us?

Given the incident with the calf, it was clearly not a one off.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The hounds had previous form for getting onto that property to try and steal the cat food. What muppets are in charge of that pack that they can’t even control hounds when on hound exercise, let alone on a hunting day?

And what exactly are the powers that be in the hunting world doing by allowing such behaviour to go on after the calf incident?

The hounds had frequently tried to push through the family’s gate to get to their cats or the cat food they put down, Ms Bingham said, adding: “We have had to remove them from our property more than once because of this.”

Each time I think that it can’t get any worse for examples of poor behaviour from modern hunts, something else happens. I genuinely do not recall anything like this ever happening back in the 70s when I was hunting.

 

[Sandstone1]

So where are all the pro hunters now? How can they defend that? A family pet on its own property minding its own business. Completely unforgivable.

 

[Wishfilly]

The hounds had previous form for getting onto that property to try and steal the cat food. What muppets are in charge of that pack that they can’t even control hounds when on hound exercise, let alone on a hunting day?

And what exactly are the powers that be in the hunting world doing by allowing such behaviour to go on after the calf incident?

The hounds had frequently tried to push through the family’s gate to get to their cats or the cat food they put down, Ms Bingham said, adding: “We have had to remove them from our property more than once because of this.”

Each time I think that it can’t get any worse for examples of poor behaviour from modern hunts, something else happens. I genuinely do not recall anything like this ever happening back in the 70s when I was hunting.

I have a theory that some modern "trail" hunts have deliberately badly controlled/trained hounds- this way, when they kill a fox, they have some plausible deniability.

Unfortunately, it's local farmers and residents that pay the price for this.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

I don't understand the followers of these terribly-behaved hunts. I am a member of a gym. If I went out to an organised competition, representing my gym, with other members and staff of the gym, and while we were out some of them went onto someone's property and killed their pet, the chances of me still being a member of the gym the next day, and having any affiliations or ties to it whatsoever, is 0%. The chances of me plastering it all over social media and approaching local news is 100%. I want to understand why these hunts still have followers.

 

[Steerpike]

So where are all the pro hunters now? How can they defend that? A family pet on its own property minding its own business. Completely unforgivable.

I'm sure they will come up with something, give them time....

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

That poor poor cat, that's heartbreaking for her owners, I don't quite know what I'd have done if they did that to one of my cats.

If they're the same ones as the calf, they should be investigated as they obviously don't have control... also the fact they tried to get onto the cat owner's property before...

And on the article about that poor poor cat above, it links to the below article, how awful some of the cats are still missing:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ssing-cats-west-sussex-hastings-a8155696.html

 

[CanteringCarrot]

So, if my dog went into someone's garden and killed or even injured their cat, I would certainly have consequences to face.

But the hunt...what are their consequences?

 

[Rowreach]

Each time I think that it can’t get any worse for examples of poor behaviour from modern hunts, something else happens. I genuinely do not recall anything like this ever happening back in the 70s when I was hunting.

This is what I'm wondering about. Hunt staff used to be consummate professionals, they adored their hounds but they had absolute control over them and never tolerated any bit of disobedience. Young hounds were introduced properly and any that weren't suitable (and almost all were because they were bred to be) were dispatched pdq.

So what has happened? Do we have a new breed of huntsman that has lost the generations of hunting lore and experience passed down from previous years, or are they breeding the wrong hounds, not producing them properly, being too tolerant of misbehaviour?

I hunted with two of the best huntsmen out there, decades ago. I remember one day the huntsman's favourite hound rioted on a deer. The hound was gone before the end of the day's hunting.

I'm glad I don't hunt any more. There is a renewed movement in NI to ban it, and to be perfectly honest I won't be at all sorry to see it go, and I hope it doesn't get replaced by trail hunting (which I doubt would work here anyway, so it would probably be pretend trail hunting). I am also now of the opinion that trail hunting in the rest of the UK is simply not realistic in its present form, and the way hunts are behaving are likely to lead to a complete ban anyway. And probably that is a good thing.

 

[Wishfilly]

This is what I'm wondering about. Hunt staff used to be consummate professionals, they adored their hounds but they had absolute control over them and never tolerated any bit of disobedience. Young hounds were introduced properly and any that weren't suitable (and almost all were because they were bred to be) were dispatched pdq.

So what has happened? Do we have a new breed of huntsman that has lost the generations of hunting lore and experience passed down from previous years, or are they breeding the wrong hounds, not producing them properly, being too tolerant of misbehaviour?

I hunted with two of the best huntsmen out there, decades ago. I remember one day the huntsman's favourite hound rioted on a deer. The hound was gone before the end of the day's hunting.

I'm glad I don't hunt any more. There is a renewed movement in NI to ban it, and to be perfectly honest I won't be at all sorry to see it go, and I hope it doesn't get replaced by trail hunting (which I doubt would work here anyway, so it would probably be pretend trail hunting). I am also now of the opinion that trail hunting in the rest of the UK is simply not realistic in its present form, and the way hunts are behaving are likely to lead to a complete ban anyway. And probably that is a good thing.

I wonder if it has anything to do with some hunts needing staff who are willing to break the law? I feel like that might exclude some of the previous responsible professionals from working with certain trail hunts?

I also think it's possible that irresponsible packs existed in the past and got away with it because of the lack of proof- I think smart phones and social media have hugely contributed to people being aware of how some hunts behave?

 

[Rowreach]

I wonder if it has anything to do with some hunts needing staff who are willing to break the law? I feel like that might exclude some of the previous responsible professionals from working with certain trail hunts?

I also think it's possible that irresponsible packs existed in the past and got away with it because of the lack of proof- I think smart phones and social media have hugely contributed to people being aware of how some hunts behave?

You could be right, and not only will the hunt staff have turned over, the hunts will have a completely different mastership too. So the decent ones are no more and the not decent ones have just carried on regardless.