Hunting is in a spot of bother

[GSD Woman]

The issue is I feel hunts will cease to exist because of their current actions, and sadly take the clean boot hunts with them.

I hope not. Brain May has a huge following as I'm sure you know. Maybe if everyone bands together clean boot hunts may continue.

 

[ycbm]

Question, is it legal for a business to refuse services based on personal bias?

yes

Can a bakery refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple?

No, it's a protected characteristic. There has been a case which established their right not to ice it with a political message advocating a change to gay marriage law. .

A horse transport and livery offer services to the public don't they? So a member of the public trying to engage a business can be turned down for moral reasons?

Yes.

For example, it would be perfectly reasonable for a horse transport company to refuse to transport race horses if they disagree with racing. Pubs and shops can reasonably throw out people they consider to be "wrongly" dressed. Etc.

 

[TGM]

JThe issue is I feel hunts will cease to exist because of their current actions, and sadly take the clean boot hunts with them.

Clean boot hunts (bloodhound packs) are members of the Master of Draghounds & Bloodhounds Association (which is totally different to, and has no links to, the British Hound Sports Association). (The BHSA The MDBA were involved in the consultation on 'The Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill' and ensured 'hunting the clean boot' stayed legal in Scotland. Hopefully they can achieve similar results with any other forthcoming legislation.

There are quite distinct differences between 'clean boot hunts' and 'trail hunts':

'Clean boot hunts' use a totally different breed of hound - bloodhounds rather than foxhounds - and these packs have been bred and trained only to follow the natural scent of human runners.

The constitution of their governing body, the MDBA, clearly states they promote 'the use of hounds to provide pleasure without the pursuit or killing of wild animals'.

'Clean boot hunts' affiliated to the MDBA must give at least 7 days notice of all their meets to the MDBA, so that compliance can be monitored. In addition to that, most 'clean boot hunts' make all their meet dates available publicly, either via a printed meet card, or on websites or publicly accessible FB groups and have no restrictions on photography/videography by spectating members of the public. It is common for both hunt staff and members of the field to record all action on 'Go Pro' type video cameras.

Many animal welfare organisations and hunt saboteur groups publicly accept that 'clean boot hunts' operate totally legally.

 

[teapot]

Clean boot hunts (bloodhound packs) are members of the Master of Draghounds & Bloodhounds Association (which is totally different to, and has no links to, the British Hound Sports Association). The MDBA were involved in the consultation on 'The Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill' and ensured 'hunting the clean boot' stayed legal in Scotland. Hopefully they can achieve similar results with any other forthcoming legislation.
There are quite distinct differences between 'clean boot hunts' and 'trail hunts':

'Clean boot hunts' use a totally different breed of hound - bloodhounds rather than foxhounds - and these packs have been bred and trained only to follow the natural scent of human runners.

The constitution of their governing body, the MDBA, clearly states they promote 'the use of hounds to provide pleasure without the pursuit or killing of wild animals'.

'Clean boot hunts' affiliated to the MDBA must give at least 7 days notice of all their meets to the MDBA, so that compliance can be monitored. In addition to that, most 'clean boot hunts' make all their meet dates available publicly, either via a printed meet card, or on websites or publicly accessible FB groups and have no restrictions on photography/videography by spectating members of the public. It is common for both hunt staff and members of the field to record all action on 'Go Pro' type video cameras.

Many animal welfare organisations and hunt saboteur groups publicly accept that 'clean boot hunts' operate totally legally.

Yes, I'm well aware TGM - I have a pack reasonably local to me, and see their posts all over Facebook

My point was that despite all of the above, and given the current feelings about social licence et al, I can actually see any/all form(s) of trail hunting being banned within the next decade or so.

I hope not. Brain May has a huge following as I'm sure you know. Maybe if everyone bands together clean boot hunts may continue.

A lot will depend on how social licence continues to develop imho. Cllean boot hunts would be foolish to think they're immune from social licence discussions.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Those are all examples of non-businesses declining to deal with another person on moral grounds.

Question, is it legal for a business to refuse services based on personal bias? Can a bakery refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple?

A horse transport and livery offer services to the public don't they? So a member of the public trying to engage a business can be turned down for moral reasons? We're not talking about about murder of another human here.

You can turn down a client for whatever reason you want as long as it's not on the grounds of a protected characteristic. Sexual orientation is a protected characteristic,.enjoying torturing animals isn't.

 

[humblepie]

A fervent belief that fox hunting is wrong was found to be a protected belief under the Equality Act. It has to be a belief that affects how the person lives their day to day life - case was an employment ne.

 

[TGM]

My point was that despite all of the above, and given the current feelings about social licence et al, I can actually see any/all form(s) of trail hunting being banned within the next decade or so...

A lot will depend on how social licence continues to develop imho. Cllean boot hunts would be foolish to think they're immune from social licence discussions.

I can assure you that the people I know who are involved in clean boot hunting (which is definitely NOT a form of 'trail hunting') are certainly not complacent about what may happen in the future. Social licence considerations have the potential to curtail a whole range of animal based activities that members of this forum take for granted now, and even riding horses at all is at risk. But the immediate issues facing the hunting world, and the reason that this thread was started in the first place, relate to illegal hunting and the killing of wildlife with hounds.

 

[teapot]

I can assure you that the people I know who are involved in clean boot hunting (which is definitely NOT a form of 'trail hunting') are certainly not complacent about what may happen in the future. Social licence considerations have the potential to curtail a whole range of animal based activities that members of this forum take for granted now, and even riding horses at all is at risk. But the immediate issues facing the hunting world, and the reason that this thread was started in the first place, relate to illegal hunting and the killing of wildlife with hounds.

Ok, fine, following the scent that a human or humans have left behind. (Does a scent have to be laid on the ground for it to count as a trail? Genuine language definition question here). Regardless of semantics, anyone involved with clean boot hunting, either organiser or follower, would be careless to assume it is as safe a hobby as perhaps some seem to think it is.

Besides which, this thread was started almost three years ago, and I would say public opinion has shifted dramatically in that time, to include all of us on here who have changed and/or developed thoughts regarding all aspects of equine sport.

 

[TGM]

Ok, fine, following the scent that a human or humans have left behind. (Does a scent have to be laid on the ground for it to count as a trail?

'Trail Hunting' is a very specific term, created by foxhound packs following the hunting ban. Please see the League Against Cruel Sports definition:

Trail Hunting | The League

'Trail’ hunting was created to mimic traditional fox hunting with dogs. It was created as an alternative to traditional hunting methods.

www.league.org.uk

 

[TGM]

Regardless of semantics, anyone involved with clean boot hunting, either organiser or follower, would be careless to assume it is as safe a hobby as perhaps some seem to think it is.

I'm not sure who the 'some' is you refer to, but it is certainly not me, nor the many people I personally know who are involved in 'hunting the clean boot' (bloodhounding), as I said in my post above.

 

[teapot]

I'm not sure who the 'some' is you refer to, but it is certainly not me, nor the many people I personally know who are involved in 'hunting the clean boot' (bloodhounding), as I said in my post above.

It wasn't aimed at you personally (funnily enough!) just an observation of general attitudes within the equestrian community at the moment.

Also, and be interested to see what others think - regardless of illegal or legal activities, I'm beginning to wonder whether constant photography of the copious amounts of alcohol on show is the best image to be portrayed. Doesn't matter whether you've been following a trail, or a human, not being legally sober enough to drive the box home is something that has never sat right with me, and does nothing to help public perception imho.

 

[TGM]

It wasn't aimed at you personally (funnily enough!) just an observation of general attitudes within the equestrian community at the moment.

Well I know it wasn't about me personally, but I did initially read it as you saying it was an attitude widely held within the bloodhounding world, which I know is definitely not the case. But now you are clarifying you were actually talking about the views of the equestrian community in general, rather than bloodhound packs in particular, it makes more sense.

 

[teapot]

Well I know it wasn't about me personally, but I did initially read it as you saying it was an attitude widely held within the bloodhounding world, which I know is definitely not the case. But now you are clarifying you were actually talking about the views of the equestrian community in general, rather than bloodhound packs in particular, it makes more sense.

I was including people who I know in my comment who regularly go out with two different bloodhound packs. Maybe a small minority, but still, some would be well advised to check their privilege at times!

 

[TGM]

I was including people who I know in my comment who regularly go out with bloodhound packs. Maybe the minority, but still, some would be well advised to check their privilege at times!

I'm sure there are loads of people in the equestrian community who need to 'check their privilege' whether they are involved in dressage, showing, eventing, team chasing, Pony Club et al ...

 

[minesadouble]

Discrimination for personal reasons on the grounds of moral values isn't illegal. I wouldn't have any problem if a vegan didn't want a meat eater (me) in their car and I once blanked a previously good friend because she wouldn't stop dating married and engaged men.

I didn't suggest it was illegal, merely that it was discriminatory.
We have a livery yard and if I can only imagine the uproar if I decided that, since we farm beef cattle, all vegetarians must leave the yard as we don't agree with their lifestyle choices.
TBH I often wonder how strong their moral code is since they happily line our 'cow murdering' pockets with their hard earned cash/benefits week in week out

 

[Sossigpoker]

I didn't suggest it was illegal, merely that it was discriminatory.
We have a livery yard and if I can only imagine the uproar if I decided that, since we farm beef cattle, all vegetarians must leave the yard as we don't agree with their lifestyle choices.
TBH I often wonder how strong their moral code is since they happily line our 'cow murdering' pockets with their hard earned cash/benefits week in week out

Well you'd be perfectly entitled to do that if you wanted to. There's nothing anyone can do about that
I was going to move to a yard but then found out they had an on premises butcher there and as a vegan I wouldn't be able to deal with that , so I didn't move.

 

[GoldenWillow]

'Trail Hunting' is a very specific term, created by foxhound packs following the hunting ban. Please see the League Against Cruel Sports definition:

Trail Hunting | The League

'Trail’ hunting was created to mimic traditional fox hunting with dogs. It was created as an alternative to traditional hunting methods.

www.league.org.uk

Then you have Hound Trails which is a totally separate thing and has gone on with little or no problems for over 100 years. I've never known these hounds go, as a pack, off the trail, you'll get the odd one come in late or very occasionally one go missing but that's about it.

 

[Thundering]

Trail hunting would be possible if done properly. The big problem is that many hunts just want to hunt fox. This blows the excuses of followers wanting the ride across country out of the water. Why do people want to hunt fox? That is the question.

 

[canteron]

I didn't suggest it was illegal, merely that it was discriminatory.
We have a livery yard and if I can only imagine the uproar if I decided that, since we farm beef cattle, all vegetarians must leave the yard as we don't agree with their lifestyle choices.
TBH I often wonder how strong their moral code is since they happily line our 'cow murdering' pockets with their hard earned cash/benefits week in week out

Why do you mock someone just because they don’t want to eat animals? If I killed and ate dogs you would probably think I was vile (I dont know you so who knows) but if I don't eat pigs, which are as intelligent as dogs without the PR you think I am vile (I guess).
It’s all down to cultural norms from historical routes - and the natural human instinct to be tribal.

Lot of people who claim to love dogs are very happy to do ‘cruel’ things to the not dissimilar fox, (like those weird Cirencester students who strapped one to the top of a car, funny in their world, psychotic in mine.)

 

[Arzada]

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[ycbm]

Trail hunting would be possible if done properly. The big problem is that many hunts just want to hunt fox. This blows the excuses of followers wanting the ride across country out of the water. Why do people want to hunt fox? That is the question.

There are many people in a hunt field on horses, they don't all have the same motivation and from experience of 3 fox hunts I can tell you that the majority of the field was out to gallop and jump in places normally not open to them.
.

 

[Thundering]

There are many people in a hunt field on horses, they don't all have the same motivation and from experience of 3 fox hunts I can tell you that the majority of the field was out to gallop and jump in places normally not open to them.
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In which case why are hunts still hunting foxes ( and breaking the law) Why are they not content to trail hunt?

 

[Millionwords]

Those are all examples of non-businesses declining to deal with another person on moral grounds.

Question, is it legal for a business to refuse services based on personal bias? Can a bakery refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple?

A horse transport and livery offer services to the public don't they? So a member of the public trying to engage a business can be turned down for moral reasons? We're not talking about about murder of another human here.

Depends whether its a protected characteristics really. You might morally object to a gay couple getting married, but sexuality is a protected characteristic so legally its discrimination.

Not wanting to deal with hunt folk is a moral choice, and as a business you can refuse, as that characteristic isn't immutable and therefore not protected.

 

[Millionwords]

It is not about them being a business as much as that being gay is a protected characteristic so no, a company can't refuse on those grounds. Neither being vegan or a meat eater are protected characteristics, so yes, you can discriminate, even if you are a business. Not that it would be good business sense, or kind, in either instance, IMO.


What are protected characteristics?

It is against the law to discriminate against someone because of:

• age
• disability
• gender reassignment
• marriage and civil partnership
• pregnancy and maternity
• race
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

sorry, i replied similarly as have hadnt read this far down yet

 

[Tiddlypom]

I'd quite happily tell a riding school/trail riding centre/trekking centre that I'd hunted with a drag hunt or bloodhound pack if I had, but I haven't. They don't cause all the problems, and they genuinely don't hunt wild animals.

It's trail hunting which is such a toxic product now, with widespread illegality and trespassing.

In my case, I've never gone trail hunting either, just the full fat legal long pre ban version. But that doesn't mean that I approve of or condone in any way the conduct of so many law breaking trail hunts. I wouldn't deny that I've hunted if I was asked directly, but I wouldn't go bringing the subject up myself. I would make it clear, though, that I don't support any poor behaviour or law breaking on either side, and I don't support repeal. Hunting has had its day.

 

[ycbm]

In which case why are hunts still hunting foxes ( and breaking the law) Why are they not content to trail hunt?

Which bit of "not everyone has the same motivation" are you not understanding?
.

 

[Thundering]

Which bit of "not everyone has the same motivation" are you not understanding?
.

Oh I understand Thank you. "Its just you said the majority of the field" Let me rephrase my post then, If the majority of people go hunting for galloping and jumping then why are hunts still hunting foxes? Its that better?

 

[ycbm]

Oh I understand Thank you. "Its just you said the majority of the field" Let me rephrase my post then, If the majority of people go hunting for galloping and jumping then why are hunts still hunting foxes? Its that better?

Because a few people who own the hunt want to hunt fox, most of the rest are out for the ride. I don't know why that's difficult to understand.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

But those who are just out for the ride cannot be unaware if the hunt that they ride out with are blatantly illegal hunting.

So the field are fully complicit in illegal hunting if their hunt is one of the naughty packs.

 

[ycbm]

But those who are just out for the ride cannot be unaware if the hunt that they ride out with are blatantly illegal hunting.

So the field are fully complicit in illegal hunting if their hunt is one of the naughty packs.

That wasn't the point. The point was why people wanted to kill fox and in my experience most of the field wanted the fox to get away, not die.
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