Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Tiddlypom]

The sabs have released a longer video showing some of the build up to the Axe Vale Harrier fox dig out incident from March 2024.

The actions of the terrier men were fishier than a fishy thing. They are digging out their terrier who happens to be wearing a tracking collar and who was down what looks like a badger sett with a fox on a hunting day. One terrier man has blood all over his hands and his jacket after the fox and the terrier were dragged out of the hole.

Digging out a fox except in very limited circumstances is illegal. Putting in a ‘hard’ ie fighting terrier is also illegal. A ‘soft’ terrier which just barks can be used.

There should be a FB video clip attached to this post.

https://fb.watch/uNhF5cCEZc

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Deleted

 

[Sandstone1]

As an independent review was announced yesterday into Warwickshire Police handling of fox-hunting, the PRO HUNT CC DEBBIE TEDDS has just announced she is RETIRING.

About time too! Things are at last starting to change.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Do I believe everything that the antis post? No, not at all. There are falsehoods put out by both sides.

However, this little nugget which was recorded a few days ago by the antis during a typically ill tempered exchange between the Warwickshire Hunt and the antis speaks volumes . This is a screen shot, but the mounted hunt follower’s comments were clearly audible.



pact = a formal agreement between two people or groups of people

Except that the details of this pact between the Warwickshire Hunt and Warwickshire Police are not available for public scrutiny. This stinks.

 

[lannerch]

Are they not being sarcastic?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I doubt it because the pact between the hunt and the police has existed, though hopefully not for much longer.

The whole thing has been dodgier than a dodgy thing. The local MP has even raised his concerns in parliament.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-04-16/debates/240416109000020/WarwickshireHunt

 

[lannerch]

All the more reason for a sarcastic comment , I can’t see why they would have said it out loud to the tape if there was no sarcasm involved .

 

[Sandstone1]

All the more reason for a sarcastic comment , I can’t see why they would have said it out loud to the tape if there was no sarcasm involved .

Because they are arrogant enough to think they can get away with pretty much anything and stupid enough to think they can get away with it?

 

[Tiddlypom]

An independent review, commissioned by Warwickshire Police and Crime Commissioner Philip Seccombe, has begun this week examining Warwickshire Police’s response to anti-social behaviour, road safety and crime reporting in relation to hunting activity in the county.

About time, too. I hope that the review is thorough and robust.

Phillip Seccombe is a member of the Countryside Alliance. It has not yet to date been satisfactorily explained why the Community Protection Notice (CPN) issued in December 2022 by Warwickshire Police to the Warwickshire Hunt for anti-social behaviour and disregard for road safety was withdrawn in August 2023.

It was replaced with an allegedly legal settlement agreed with the Warwickshire Hunt, which provided a protocol to address road safety concerns during the 2023/24 hunting season, but the contents of this so called protocol were never made public despite numerous requests that it was. The local MP even raised the subject in Parliament trying to get the issue investigated.

The Warwickshire chief constable has just announced her intention to step down .

Independent review begins into policing of activities related to hunting in Warwickshire - Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner for Warwickshire

An independent review, commissioned by Police and Crime Commissioner Philip Seccombe, has begun this week examining Warwickshire Police’s response to anti-social behaviour, road safety and crime reporting in relation to hunting activity in the county. The review will help to provide the...

www.warwickshire-pcc.gov.uk

 

[Millionwords]

On the 5th of November 2022, Gabrielle Jagger was walking down a bridleway when she saw the Pendle Forest & Craven Hunt coming in the opposite direction. She moved off the bridleway, leaving the hunt metres to pass. As they passed Gabrielle, a horse called Duke kicked out, hitting her in the pelvis and throwing her into the air. The rider, Bryony Fearnley, fled the scene, leaving no contact details, but other riders stopped to give assistance.
The hunt had no first aid equipment – the best they could manage was a dirty horse blanket. Although hunt horse boxes were only 800 metres away, none of them carried first aid kits. Nick Bannister, Joint Chairman, Director & Joint Master of the hunt – also at the time Chairman of the Countryside Alliance and a Vice President of the Association of Masters of Harriers & Beagles – arrived in his 4×4, having been contacted by members of the hunt. He also failed to bring any first aid equipment.

Gabrielle’s injuries were devastating. She suffered a double open fracture of the pelvis and a large wound, which caused severe loss of blood; her surgeon stated that she was fortunate not to have bled to death. She also suffered significant tissue damage, tendinitis of the hamstring, hypermobile SI joint, permanent bowel muscle and nerve damage. These injuries have caused life-changing physical and psychological changes and Gabrielle, a teacher, will be unable to work again.

The hunt could produce no risk assessments for any of their activities and their insurers did not contest the liability that the pain, injury, loss and damage were caused by a breach of duty of care of the Pendle Forest & Craven Hunt, in particular, the negligence of the hunt and its riders.

The British Hound Sports Association and the Countryside Alliance were both contacted regarding this failure to protect public safety. They failed to respond with any measures they would take to prevent a similar incident. As far as we can tell, no efforts have been made to inform the wider hunting community in any effort to reduce the likelihood of a reoccurrence.
Simple measures such as advice to give pedestrians a wide berth, the carrying of a first aid kit and the training of key members of the hunt in first aid have not been suggested; these would protect their own riders as much as the general public.

The horse which caused the injury was loaned by a local trekking centre, of which Bryony Fearnley was an employee. Riding an unknown horse on hunts is very common, with people renting a horse for the day. This increases the chance of the horse being out of control, and there are no checks on the ability or experience of the riders.

The Parish Council wrote to the hunt regarding this incident, concerned for its constituents, asking the hunt to publicise when it would be using public rights of way. The hunt did respond but failed to make any promise on this suggestion.
Around the same time as this horrific incident took place, a two-year-old girl died after falling from a pony at a Bedale Hunt meet. Also, at the end of 2023, a woman, aged in her 20s, died after falling from a quad bike at the Beaufort Hunt, with the driver allegedly fleeing the scene of the incident.

 

[emilylou]

On the 5th of November 2022, Gabrielle Jagger was walking down a bridleway when she saw the Pendle Forest & Craven Hunt coming in the opposite direction. She moved off the bridleway, leaving the hunt metres to pass. As they passed Gabrielle, a horse called Duke kicked out, hitting her in the pelvis and throwing her into the air. The rider, Bryony Fearnley, fled the scene, leaving no contact details, but other riders stopped to give assistance.
The hunt had no first aid equipment – the best they could manage was a dirty horse blanket. Although hunt horse boxes were only 800 metres away, none of them carried first aid kits. Nick Bannister, Joint Chairman, Director & Joint Master of the hunt – also at the time Chairman of the Countryside Alliance and a Vice President of the Association of Masters of Harriers & Beagles – arrived in his 4×4, having been contacted by members of the hunt. He also failed to bring any first aid equipment.

Gabrielle’s injuries were devastating. She suffered a double open fracture of the pelvis and a large wound, which caused severe loss of blood; her surgeon stated that she was fortunate not to have bled to death. She also suffered significant tissue damage, tendinitis of the hamstring, hypermobile SI joint, permanent bowel muscle and nerve damage. These injuries have caused life-changing physical and psychological changes and Gabrielle, a teacher, will be unable to work again.

The hunt could produce no risk assessments for any of their activities and their insurers did not contest the liability that the pain, injury, loss and damage were caused by a breach of duty of care of the Pendle Forest & Craven Hunt, in particular, the negligence of the hunt and its riders.

The British Hound Sports Association and the Countryside Alliance were both contacted regarding this failure to protect public safety. They failed to respond with any measures they would take to prevent a similar incident. As far as we can tell, no efforts have been made to inform the wider hunting community in any effort to reduce the likelihood of a reoccurrence.

Simple measures such as advice to give pedestrians a wide berth, the carrying of a first aid kit and the training of key members of the hunt in first aid have not been suggested; these would protect their own riders as much as the general public.

The horse which caused the injury was loaned by a local trekking centre, of which Bryony Fearnley was an employee. Riding an unknown horse on hunts is very common, with people renting a horse for the day. This increases the chance of the horse being out of control, and there are no checks on the ability or experience of the riders.

The Parish Council wrote to the hunt regarding this incident, concerned for its constituents, asking the hunt to publicise when it would be using public rights of way. The hunt did respond but failed to make any promise on this suggestion.

Around the same time as this horrific incident took place, a two-year-old girl died after falling from a pony at a Bedale Hunt meet. Also, at the end of 2023, a woman, aged in her 20s, died after falling from a quad bike at the Beaufort Hunt, with the driver allegedly fleeing the scene of the incident.

This is a horrible incident, I really do feel for that poor lady, its an awful thing to happen and I'm devastated on her behalf.
But to be devils advocate to this report, a first aid kit would have been no use in this situation. Plasters, cotton wool and gauze bandages wouldn't have done a thing. She needed an air ambulance.
And a horse blanket to keep warm a person who is going into shock is much better than a first aid kit foil blanket.
The rider may well have 'fled' the scene- or quickly removed the dangerous horse from the injured person to avoid causing more harm.

The other incidents are horrific too, but these are all accidents. Accidents happen everywhere and no one goes hunting wanting, or expecting this kind of thing to happen.
The rider of the horse 'should' have public liability insurance (as should all riders who ride in public spaces) and so should the trekking centre that owned the horse, if the rider had public liability the lady would have been able to claim for her injury off that. I imagine it was not usual behaviour for the horse otherwise it would not have been suitable for a trekking centre. I'm not defending any of this, but equally, a horse kicked out- as the enquiry found, there isn't anywhere to lay the blame for the animals behaviour.

Yes, hunts should probably have some more 'procedure' in place in regard to accidents. But any injury sustained when hunting is going to require more than a first aid kit, most first aid kits are present only for health and safety tick boxes and are functionally useless in a genuine crisis. Any hunting injury I've seen has been swiftly dealt with by providing a prompt escort to an ambulance and the medically trained members of the field (we usually have some doctors and nurses floating about) are always very quick to attend to the injured person immediately and usually stay with them until their care is transferred. Wire cutters are available from horseback if needed. For the injuries I've seen hunting- kicks, wire injuries, concussion, the current informal procedure is very effective. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but ''Don't worry, here comes the quad bike with the first aid kit, we'll get a plaster for your concussion'' would be ridiculous.

I can't speak for all hunts but the hunts I ride with always tell the field to be considerate and polite to anyone we encounter, whether in a car or on foot, which includes giving them plenty of room when passing, but this is difficult if you are riding down a narrow PROW and meet someone in the middle of it. Despite what the report implies, the PROW clearly wasn't wide enough to allow the lady to move a good distance away as otherwise she wouldn't have been kicked, and when walking on a bridleway, you may meet some horses. Again, a terrible accident.

There have been lots of people who have died by careless driving this year, shall we ban cars along with hunting on public safety grounds?

 

[palo1]

This is a horrible incident, I really do feel for that poor lady, its an awful thing to happen and I'm devastated on her behalf.
But to be devils advocate to this report, a first aid kit would have been no use in this situation. Plasters, cotton wool and gauze bandages wouldn't have done a thing. She needed an air ambulance.
And a horse blanket to keep warm a person who is going into shock is much better than a first aid kit foil blanket.
The rider may well have 'fled' the scene- or quickly removed the dangerous horse from the injured person to avoid causing more harm.

The other incidents are horrific too, but these are all accidents. Accidents happen everywhere and no one goes hunting wanting, or expecting this kind of thing to happen.
The rider of the horse 'should' have public liability insurance (as should all riders who ride in public spaces) and so should the trekking centre that owned the horse, if the rider had public liability the lady would have been able to claim for her injury off that. I imagine it was not usual behaviour for the horse otherwise it would not have been suitable for a trekking centre. I'm not defending any of this, but equally, a horse kicked out- as the enquiry found, there isn't anywhere to lay the blame for the animals behaviour.

Yes, hunts should probably have some more 'procedure' in place in regard to accidents. But any injury sustained when hunting is going to require more than a first aid kit, most first aid kits are present only for health and safety tick boxes and are functionally useless in a genuine crisis. Any hunting injury I've seen has been swiftly dealt with by providing a prompt escort to an ambulance and the medically trained members of the field (we usually have some doctors and nurses floating about) are always very quick to attend to the injured person immediately and usually stay with them until their care is transferred. Wire cutters are available from horseback if needed. For the injuries I've seen hunting- kicks, wire injuries, concussion, the current informal procedure is very effective. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but ''Don't worry, here comes the quad bike with the first aid kit, we'll get a plaster for your concussion'' would be ridiculous.

I can't speak for all hunts but the hunts I ride with always tell the field to be considerate and polite to anyone we encounter, whether in a car or on foot, which includes giving them plenty of room when passing, but this is difficult if you are riding down a narrow PROW and meet someone in the middle of it. Despite what the report implies, the PROW clearly wasn't wide enough to allow the lady to move a good distance away as otherwise she wouldn't have been kicked, and when walking on a bridleway, you may meet some horses. Again, a terrible accident.

There have been lots of people who have died by careless driving this year, shall we ban cars along with hunting on public safety grounds?

All of the hunts I have ridden with do have risk assessments in place and there is a strict protocol for medical or veterinary incidents. Everything stops, first aider on the scene asap, area secured and made safe whilst calling for help. We usually have a nurse or doctor about and ime, many people attending will have formal 1st aid quals. At least one master at every hunt I know will take charge of incidents - that is part of their role. If 3rd party insurance is not legally required, you can advise but not enforce that. I don't know anyone without that tbh. All riders 'should' have insurance - but it is a matter of personal choice and responsibility.

One of the most tragic accidents I've been present at was at a hunt fun ride where an individual who lived locally, didn't sign in, or pay and then, riding alone after most people had ridden had a horse related incident. The hunt protocol saved her life - a hunt rider who happened to be sweeping the route was able to call the air ambulance, whilst the master, who was riding, crossed country very quickly to get there. That individual was a trained paramedic and the hunt was able to use existing systems to co-ordinate, communicate and care for the injured person.

Accidents can happen anywhere: horrific, tragic accidents - often things can be improved but the points made by @emilylou are entirely pertinent.

 

[emilylou]

All of the hunts I have ridden with do have risk assessments in place and there is a strict protocol for medical or veterinary incidents. Everything stops, first aider on the scene asap, area secured and made safe whilst calling for help. We usually have a nurse or doctor about and ime, many people attending will have formal 1st aid quals. At least one master at every hunt I know will take charge of incidents - that is part of their role. If 3rd party insurance is not legally required, you can advise but not enforce that. I don't know anyone without that tbh. All riders 'should' have insurance - but it is a matter of personal choice and responsibility.

One of the most tragic accidents I've been present at was at a hunt fun ride where an individual who lived locally, didn't sign in, or pay and then, riding alone after most people had ridden had a horse related incident. The hunt protocol saved her life - a hunt rider who happened to be sweeping the route was able to call the air ambulance, whilst the master, who was riding, crossed country very quickly to get there. That individual was a trained paramedic and the hunt was able to use existing systems to co-ordinate, communicate and care for the injured person.

Accidents can happen anywhere: horrific, tragic accidents - often things can be improved but the points made by @emilylou are entirely pertinent.

I would just add, that the skills required to hunt well and the environment hunting creates is fantastic training for dealing with crisis. The adrenaline, the genuine risk of death (which we all knowingly accept, and is present whenever you mount a horse), the discipline required, the need to quickly analyse a situation and respond, the need for genuine skill to be successful, to work together with those around you and listen and respond to instruction or requests for help. This, combined with the fact that, like it or not, there are a lot of people who hunt are trained professionals in the medical field- myself included, means that you are likely to be surrounded by many people who are hugely effective at dealing with an emergency situation, should an accident occur.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Despite what the report implies, the PROW clearly wasn't wide enough to allow the lady to move a good distance away as otherwise she wouldn't have been kicked, and when walking on a bridleway, you may meet some horses. Again, a terrible accident.

If the PROW wasn’t wide enough at that point to safely pass the walker then the riders should have held back until either the end of the PROW or a suitable passing point was reached .

You don’t just barrel on past a walker. You wait.

 

[emilylou]

If the PROW wasn’t wide enough at that point to safely pass the walker then the riders should have held back until either the end of the PROW or a suitable passing point was reached .

You don’t just barrel on past a walker. You wait.

Yes, you're right. But if in the middle, and find the walker in the middle, and the walker moves aside and motions the horses to move on, then you move on. The report states the walker moved aside before the horses passed
You can't make assumptions about details without having more information

 

[Tiddlypom]

What is clear is that the walker was in kicking range of one of the horses.

We horsey types know the ‘keep at least a horse’s length away’ rule. Random members of the public may not.

 

[emilylou]

What is clear is that the walker was in kicking range of one of the horses.

We horsey types know the ‘keep at least a horse’s length away’ rule. Random members of the public don’t.

I would agree. Unfortunately we cannot avoid random members of the public when in public places.

 

[emilylou]

Please continue to hash through the details more thoroughly to ensure that the hunt is found completely to blame.

 

[Fred66]

If the PROW wasn’t wide enough at that point to safely pass the walker then the riders should have held back until either the end of the PROW or a suitable passing point was reached .

You don’t just barrel on past a walker. You wait.

They were going in opposite directions so not quite sure how this would work ? There is no inference they barreled past, just that as they passed a horse kicked out. It is an unfortunate accident, that possibly all concerned (including the injured walker) with the benefit of hindsight been able to avoid.
The items mentioned as potentially lessons learned such as giving pedestrians a wide berth, first aid kits and training are things that many hunts do or have anyway. So whilst some risk assessments might not be formally recorded over the years these risks are known, communicated and mitigated.

 

[skinnydipper]

So if the horse was facing forward and the walker was standing off to the side, how did the walker come to be kicked?

 

[Tiddlypom]

No, you can’t avoid random members of the public, so you give them plenty of clearance as you can’t always predict their actions.

The hunt is no longer number one priority traffic in the countryside, with all others to defer, to get out of the way and to allow them to pass unhindered.

 

[Clodagh]

So if the horse was facing forward and the walker was standing off to the side, how did the walker come to be kicked?

Horses can kick sideways.

 

[Clodagh]

I think it as incredibly tragic thing to have happened, the poor woman. Thank goodness the hunt insurance will pay out.
It could have been anyone riding and any walker, it’s only being blamed on hunting as it suits a narrative. And as for listing those two other people that died out hunting, that’s just macabre unless you also want to list anyone that died as a result of riding or being close to a horse in the same time frame.

 

[skinnydipper]

Horses can kick sideways.

Thanks, Clodagh. I thought it must have turned and kicked.

So when I'm out my dog, I'm told we have to stand where the horse can see us rather than step back into the bushes. Where is the best place to stand when the paths aren't very wide.

She's good and waits calmly but sometimes the horses don't seem very sure and need persuading to come past.

 

[Clodagh]

Thanks, Clodagh. I thought it must have turned and kicked.

So when I'm out my dog, I'm told we have to stand where the horse can see us rather than step back into the bushes. Where is the best place to stand when the paths aren't very wide.

She's good and waits calmly but sometimes the horses don't seem very sure and need persuading to come past.

It might have done, I assumed it kicked sideways but it could have spun its bum round, but if they are moving that is harder for them.
If I meet a horse out with the dogs I make sure the horse has seen me, and heard me. I might keep taking if it helps. I sit the dogs up out to the side and I am more prominent than they are. Discourage the dog from staring at the horse.
Tbh you are probably safer having hunt horses go past you than many others as if a horse kicks hounds it should not be out.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m pretty cynical about hunts giving plenty of room when passing walkers. A friend who walking along her own private drive with her baby in a back pack had to jump out of the way of mounted hunt followers who did barrel past.

They only apologised to her when another hunt follower then told them who my friend’s landowner husband was. Until then they had deemed her to be just another unimportant little person of no consequence.

 

[Millionwords]

This was rather more to point out that they didn't have risk assessments or trained first aiders, and procedures in place which would be expected in most events and sports events, particularly those which are dangerous.

I've seen Hunt field riders come off and the rest of the field left them, and bystanders were the only people to assist. On several occasions.

 

[Millionwords]

And for clarity on the width of the bridleway....

 

[Clodagh]

That’s really sad, you wouldn’t think such a thing was possible. Horrible for the woman injured.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The PROW is much wider than I was expecting. There should have been room for horses and the walker to keep a safe distance apart.

I’d have headed to one of the gateways up ahead before the rest of the field came past.

Re risk assessment. There ought be a robust system of calling out hazards up ahead like ware hole, so in this case ware walker on left or some such, so that members of the field following close up behind others (and quite possibly not paying attention) aren’t taken by surprise by a walker.