Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Sandstone1]

That's why I stopped hunting.... 6 pretty new tyres slashed, windscreen smashed, my mounts bridle grabbed by balaclavered man screaming obscenities. .... terrifying and vile.
This on private land where landowner was equally intimidated and threatened by the sabs running around his property.
This hunt has some well behaved monitors, but rent a crowd turn up to regularly sab. Their media reports are in complete opposite of monitor reports, go figure!

It was hunt supporters that slashed sabs tyres.

 

[Sandstone1]

Where was this and what is the evidence that this was linked with hunting? Having spoken to more than one member of ALF over the years, their actions were certainly not confined to sabbing hunts, although that was part of the activity.

it was at a hunt meet and filmed so guess thats pretty clear but I doubt you would believe it.

 

[Koweyka]

it was at a hunt meet and filmed so guess thats pretty clear but I doubt you would believe it.

Another sab hospitalised by supporters of the Oakley hunt today, clearly asked for his head to be stamped on as he is bound to be blamed.

 

[Sandstone1]

Another sab hospitalised by supporters of the Oakley hunt today, clearly asked for his head to be stamped on as he is bound to be blamed.

I hope he is ok. I also hope the police are involved.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Of course there are bad hunts that break the law and behave appalling. No one is disputing this! But not all trail hunts act this way

 

[ycbm]

Of course there are bad hunts that break the law and behave appalling. No one is disputing this! But not all trail hunts act this way

Can you give the sabs an easy and reliable way to tell the difference?
.

 

[YorksG]

Can you give the sabs an easy and reliable way to tell the difference?
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This could be written as " can you tell people who will commit illegal acts, an easy and reliable way of telling who else will commit illegality".

 

[Sandstone1]

Of course there are bad hunts that break the law and behave appalling. No one is disputing this! But not all trail hunts act this way

I have never said all trail hunts behave this way. Sadly some do though. What do you, as a legitimate trail hunter suggest can be done about illegal hunting?
How can illegal hunting be stopped? Can genuine trail hunters show how they are hunting within the law? Can the trail be published beforehand? If a pre laid trail is used it must be possible to do this? If you do not all want to be tarred with the same brush you are going to have to distance yourselves from fox hunters.

 

[YorksG]

I have never said all trail hunts behave this way. Sadly some do though. What do you, as a legitimate trail hunter suggest can be done about illegal hunting?
How can illegal hunting be stopped? Can genuine trail hunters show how they are hunting within the law? Can the trail be published beforehand? If a pre laid trail is used it must be possible to do this? If you do not all want to be tarred with the same brush you are going to have to distance yourselves from fox hunters.

Likewise all anti hunt people will have to distance themselves from sabs who set out to commit violence and damage. Perhaps a first step would be to ensure there is no link with the Animal Liberation Front, who over the years have behaved in a very similar manner to terrorist cells.

 

[Sandstone1]

Likewise all anti hunt people will have to distance themselves from sabs who set out to commit violence and damage. Perhaps a first step would be to ensure there is no link with the Animal Liberation Front, who over the years have behaved in a very similar manner to terrorist cells.

Its not the same thing at all, with all the bad press hunting is getting can you not see that unless trail hunting shows itself to be whiter than white you are going to go down with fox hunting? The webinars, the fox stabbing, the woman hitting her horse, the riders running down a sab. Hunts killing deer and frequent fox kills just to mention a few incidents. That is if you are trail hunting at all..

 

[palo1]

Likewise all anti hunt people will have to distance themselves from sabs who set out to commit violence and damage. Perhaps a first step would be to ensure there is no link with the Animal Liberation Front, who over the years have behaved in a very similar manner to terrorist cells.

Quite. The police and government briefings about animal rights activists (including hunt saboteurs) identifies them as a significant risk and in certain instances on a par with terrorists. This isn't something anyone should take lightly or underestimate. They do not identify registered trail hunts in the same way as the ideology and preparedness of animal rights activists to cause harm, civil order issues and illegal disruption is far greater and more serious than anything a hunt has proven itself prepared to do. It is, in fact individuals within a hunt that cause problems that require police attendance yet the entire underlying manifesto of animal rights activists is to disrupt and cause damage.

That is not to justify any violent or antisocial action by hunt individuals but membership of certain organisations related to animal rights activism causes far more concern to the police than any hunt activity is going to. The Hunting Act is sufficient for the Police to deal with antisocial or illegal hunting activities. Every time an animal rights organisation is involved however, the police have to consider the terrorism/ proscribed groups legislation and potential for terrorism. There have been incidents, serious ones too of fraud to deal with. And sabs complain that the police are biased....

 

[ycbm]

Likewise all anti hunt people will have to distance themselves from sabs who set out to commit violence and damage. Perhaps a first step would be to ensure there is no link with the Animal Liberation Front, who over the years have behaved in a very similar manner to terrorist cells.

Anti hunt people don't "have to" distance themselves from anything to achieve an end to illegal hunting, they can just sit back and watch hunting self-destruct.

Sadly it's probably going to take legal hunting with it.

The Hunting Act is sufficient for the Police to deal with antisocial or illegal hunting activities

Of course it isn't. Person after person has described to you how they are affected by antisocial hunting and you yourself have described how fox hunting can't be stopped because hunts are pushing to the very edge of the letter of the law with no intention whatsoever of sticking to the spirit of the law even though that spirit is completely clear.
.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

The fox population is kept in check by legal shooting

I have seen some of this shooting, finding wounded foxes struggling to get up to get away because a clean shot has not been made. So cruel.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Can you give the sabs an easy and reliable way to tell the difference?
.

By the peaceful monitoring of hunts of course. Legitimate trail packs would have no issue with this.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Quite. The police and government briefings about animal rights activists (including hunt saboteurs) identifies them as a significant risk and in certain instances on a par with terrorists. This isn't something anyone should take lightly or underestimate. They do not identify registered trail hunts in the same way as the ideology and preparedness of animal rights activists to cause harm, civil order issues and illegal disruption is far greater and more serious than anything a hunt has proven itself prepared to do. It is, in fact individuals within a hunt that cause problems that require police attendance yet the entire underlying manifesto of animal rights activists is to disrupt and cause damage.

That is not to justify any violent or antisocial action by hunt individuals but membership of certain organisations related to animal rights activism causes far more concern to the police than any hunt activity is going to. The Hunting Act is sufficient for the Police to deal with antisocial or illegal hunting activities. Every time an animal rights organisation is involved however, the police have to consider the terrorism/ proscribed groups legislation and potential for terrorism. There have been incidents, serious ones too of fraud to deal with. And sabs complain that the police are biased....

"The Hunting Act is sufficient for the Police to deal with antisocial or illegal hunting activities."

There are also laws to deal with illegal activities committed by sabs. Well, problem solved. Don't know what everyone is complaining about.

Ok, I'm being facetious but I've seen the argument of "let the law deal with it" come up a few times re illegal hunting and/or damages caused by hunts. So the same would go for illegal activities by Sabs and/or damages caused by them. However, this doesn't solve the problem, at all, because people are still p'd off and there is antisocial and illegal behavior by both sides (hunts and sabs) with seemingly very little to no consequences.


As an aside, I do not believe every anti hunt person is a Sab or would be one. I'd never be a Sab, I don't mind legal activity/trail hunts, but also understand the public getting fed up and see that many hunts and individuals that belong to those hunts aren't doing the sport and favors (the arrogance is astounding). It's one of those things that requires a huge attitude shift and doing some work/extra things that are viewed as not necessary, but may just help save the sport. I don't know that it can be saved or deserves to be at this point, if things continue as is.

I get that there are much bigger fish to fry, but that doesn't take away from this mess or the fact that it needs to be dealt with.

Sort of feels like one of those things we'll bicker about for ages though.

 

[ycbm]

By the peaceful monitoring of hunts of course. Legitimate trail packs would have no issue with this.

There are hunts that works for and hunts that we're told it doesn't. I don't know if that's geography, or something else.

I suspect you're on a losing wicket until you find a way to put more distance between yourselves and the people hunting fox. With the MFA still insistent that the webinars were taken out of context, and people insisting that although the spirit of the law is perfectly clear, it's fine to allow foxes to be killed by hounds as long as the evidence to prosecute can't be obtained, that doesn't seem likely to happen soon.
.

 

[Fred66]

……. I don't mind legal activity/trail hunts, but also understand the public getting fed up and see that many hunts and individuals that belong to those hunts aren't doing the sport and favors (the arrogance is astounding). It's one of those things that requires a huge attitude shift and doing some work/extra things that are viewed as not necessary, but may just help save the sport. I don't know that it can be saved or deserves to be at this point, if things continue as is.

That’s the thing it’s not many hunts and most are not arrogant. Most are polite, law abiding people who support both each other and the local community.
How would you have us change our attitude?

 

[ycbm]

That’s the thing it’s not many hunts and most are not arrogant.

You should read this thread with the eyes of people who don't hunt and people, especially locals, who don't even ride.
.

 

[ycbm]

I have seen some of this shooting, finding wounded foxes struggling to get up to get away because a clean shot has not been made. So cruel.

I've lived for 31 years in an area that has never been hunted. I've never seen a wounded fox, though my farming friends have had plenty shot for them. There are vast areas of the UK where foxes have never been hunted with hounds (though you'd never believe that when you hear hunters criticise shooters) and the Burns report concluded, as I recollect, that there was no difference in overall welfare level between hunting and shooting.
.

 

[palo1]

You should read this thread with the eyes of people who don't hunt and people, especially locals, who don't even ride.
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In fairness, that is only the same few posters referring to the same hunts; the vast majority of HHO posters are not bothered enough either way to comment on hunting. The thread title attracts those for whom this is a significant issue and in reality there are few of us. Very, very occasionally hunting will be brought up in another thread (as was the case late last year) with no problems reported. I think you too should read the thread and listen to the voices that present a different picture to yours. @ycbm - you don't have a local hunt so I understand so you are reporting on things that you haven't perhaps seen but have heard of. I am not saying that you are not reporting correctly but that you yourself have not had issues with hunting. Yet you have a strong voice against hunting - that is perfectly fair but you can't say that you have had issues with a hunt on your land or with your horses?

 

[palo1]

I've lived for 31 years in an area that has never been hunted. I've never seen a wounded fox, though my farming friends have had plenty shot for them. There are vast areas of the UK where foxes have never been hunted with hounds (though you'd never believe that when you hear hunters criticise shooters) and the Burns report concluded, as I recollect, that there was no difference in overall welfare level between hunting and shooting.
.

You are deluded if you think that all shooting of foxes is 'clean' and provides a swift and humane death. A decent shot does provide that but not every person shooting is a decent shot and not every shot hits the mark or provides opportunity for a further terminal shot. Not everyone shooting foxes is particularly interested in the skill of shooting - nor are they necessarily bothered with the humane element. I am not sure what countryside you actually live in tbh!!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Palo, are you purposely being obtuse? I really can't tell at this point. People are seemingly misreading on purpose at times.

Not every shot is clean (no one here thinks every shot is perfect), I'm not sure how fox hunting with hounds is exactly humane either. One person going out shooting fox might technically carry less risk of other incidents. I'm not saying it's THE answer and flawless, just something I thought about.

 

[ycbm]

You are deluded if you think that all shooting of foxes is 'clean' and provides a swift and humane death.

Well I would be if that's what I had written, but I didn't.

The Burns report concluded that shooting and hunting, taken overall, were equally (in)humane, didn't it? So why do hunters persistently bring up shooting to support their arguments? It annoys the shooters no end.
.

 

[palo1]

Palo, are you purposely being obtuse? I really can't tell at this point. People are seemingly misreading on purpose at times.

Not every shot is clean (no one here thinks every shot is perfect), I'm not sure how fox hunting with hounds is exactly humane either. One person going out shooting fox might technically carry less risk of other incidents. I'm not saying it's THE answer and flawless, just something I thought about.

I wasn't meaning to be deliberately obtuse and I agree that shooting foxes is one way of getting rid of them, when they need controlling and potentially a low risk in other ways, although our experience here, of groups of fox shooters is that they do feel they can wander at will to a degree, often at night. That unnerves local people too and we often get local messages to say that these groups are about. For some people there are issues with that kind of fox control too and plenty of local stories about groups of people moving through the countryside at night with guns taking every fox they can. For some people, that also presents concerns about people on their yards or property wrt the risk of quad or other machinery theft. That may well be gossip or dodgy info and generally I have no worries at all about it but it's not a trouble free approach in the way some people think it might be.

 

[palo1]

Well I would be if that's what I had written, but I didn't.

The Burns report concluded that shooting and hunting, taken overall, were equally (in)humane, didn't it? So why do hunters persistently bring up shooting to support their arguments? It annoys the shooters no end.
.

Yes, you didn't say that on this occasion but you have done previously I think. Apologies for conflating this reply with earlier ones. I have no desire to annoy shooters as I have many shooting friends and much respect for many aspects of shooting. I am quite happy to support shooting and our own hunt works well with local shoots so the conflict narrative isn't one I have experienced. I don't have an issue with people shooting foxes if they have permission or want to shoot them on their land (though I think numbers possibly should be controlled) - I am just saying what my experience and understanding is.

 

[ycbm]

In fairness, that is only the same few posters referring to the same hunts; the vast majority of HHO posters are not bothered enough either way to comment on hunting. The thread title attracts those for whom this is a significant issue and in reality there are few of us. Very, very occasionally hunting will be brought up in another thread (as was the case late last year) with no problems reported. I think you too should read the thread and listen to the voices that present a different picture to yours. @ycbm - you don't have a local hunt so I understand so you are reporting on things that you haven't perhaps seen but have heard of. I am not saying that you are not reporting correctly but that you yourself have not had issues with hunting. Yet you have a strong voice against hunting - that is perfectly fair but you can't say that you have had issues with a hunt on your land or with your horses?

I've drag hunted with 4 packs. I've fox hunted with 4 different hunts. I stabled on the yard of a hunt master for several years. I've personally been part of causing the kind of upset and irritation that hunting generates. I've seen the arrogance and sense of entitlement by those at the top of every one of those hunts, and I hear it echoed on this thread.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, you didn't say that on this occasion but you have done previously I think.

Never. I have NEVER said that every fox which is shot is shot clean.

I am not a fool.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I wasn't meaning to be deliberately obtuse and I agree that shooting foxes is one way of getting rid of them, when they need controlling and potentially a low risk in other ways, although our experience here, of groups of fox shooters is that they do feel they can wander at will to a degree, often at night. That unnerves local people too and we often get local messages to say that these groups are about. For some people there are issues with that kind of fox control too and plenty of local stories about groups of people moving through the countryside at night with guns taking every fox they can. For some people, that also presents concerns about people on their yards or property wrt the risk of quad or other machinery theft. That may well be gossip or dodgy info and generally I have no worries at all about it but it's not a trouble free approach in the way some people think it might be.

Yeah, I mean, every method has its risks. No one (hunt or hunter) should be on property without permission anyway. Here, when they want to hunt pig for example, they just talk to the property owners they'll be around or wish to go onto, and just come up with a day/days to do it. Nothing sketchy occurs, so would be nice if it could work that way over there for fox. Sometimes that means we don't put the horses out for a day or certain time in the day because it's possible they're in the fields and have notified us so we know.

Basically it just comes down to people need to stop being weird and sketchy ?

 

[palo1]

Yeah, I mean, every method has its risks. No one (hunt or hunter) should be on property without permission anyway. Here, when they want to hunt pig for example, they just talk to the property owners they'll be around or wish to go onto, and just come up with a day/days to do it. Nothing sketchy occurs, so would be nice if it could work that way over there for fox. Sometimes that means we don't put the horses out for a day or certain time in the day because it's possible they're in the fields and have notified us so we know.

Basically it just comes down to people need to stop being weird and sketchy ?

Yes, that covers it well lol!! Goodness knows how things will be handled here when our wild boar population shows evidence of having swine fever, which I fear is probably only a matter of time. Weird and sketchy folk of all persuasions are likely to make themselves very present...

 

[Fred66]

You should read this thread with the eyes of people who don't hunt and people, especially locals, who don't even ride.
.

But they are talking from a biased starting position based upon experience of a handful of hunts. Equally the negative press is coming from a tiny group of people. Chris Packham blamed a burnt out vehicle near his property on hunting people, despite the fact that there was absolutely no evidence and another burnt vehicle was found in the local area, but once the statement is out then there are those who believe no smoke without fire.