Hunts woman hits proteste

[fburton]

If they were indeed horrible, common, filthy scum, they deserved everything they got.

 

[ihatework]

Tempers seem to run very high on both sides when this sort of thing happens, understandably so and I think people then make poor judgements.

I would like to know why she decided to continue to engage with them, given that the rest of the field other than the chap and the terriermen/footfollowers seemed to be well out the way at this point. They want a fight, and they want footage, why give them what they want.

Completely agree.
What a silly silly woman. She took the bait that these thugs engineered and has now, to the majority of the general public, made hunts look bad.
She played right into this type of sabs hands ....

 

[MagicMelon]

If they were indeed horrible, common, filthy scum, they deserved everything they got.

That doesnt make you sound snobby at all

 

[fburton]

Technically under all sorts of old established historical laws, the individual was trying to steal the horse.

Interesting. Usually, for something to be theft there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive - otherwise it could be argued to be borrowing. Is that not the case with (ridden) horses?

 

[Hanno Verian]

Its an interesting case this if I'm not mistaken this is about the fourth similar story in the Mail in the last few weeks - obviously the Sabs have got more savvy about using the media.

The point is we are seeing an edited version of an event that was filmed by an individual with their own specific agenda, this was not a well balanced neutral reporting of events.

What we saw on the footage and what actually happened on the day may be very different -

We saw a lady apparently using her horse to move a masked individual in a specific direction, he grabs her reins and she strikes him repeatedly until he lets go. The description of her riding at the sab is to me an exaggeration as it makes it sound like she galloped at him and rode him down, which is clearly not the case.

Was she trying to protect young children from being pulled of ponies or riders on more volatile horses having their horses spooked in an attempt to unseat them or was she frustrated by Sabs blocking a legal activity on private land - We don't know!

What we do know is that the Sab was masked - Whilst not illegal is most certainly intimidating, he did grab the riders bridle and it appears that they were trespassing.

I don't think that the way that the footage has shown the hunt in a positive light, from the way it is edited it, to a non horsy member of the public appears to show a member of the hunt over reacting and beating a Sab viciously, would I do the same if I were mounted and someone grabbed my bridle - absolutely. Would I have put myself in that position, I don't know. I used to hunt with a lady who had no arms and controlled her horse purely with her feet if she or a child were put in danger or intimidated by a masked individual I would like to think that I would put myself in the way.

 

[cobgoblin]

I didn't see the woman attempt to run anyone down with the horse. She approached the sabs and told them to get back onto the road, one of them grabbed the horse's bridle and started pulling the horse around in a tight circle. Not surprised she fought back, he was told to get off the horse but continued his actions.
I don't hunt but frankly if someone started attacking my horse then they would have got worse than that.

Other members of the hunt were present and close by. The terrier man was also telling the sabs to get back on the road.

 

[ihatework]

Its an interesting case this if I'm not mistaken this is about the fourth similar story in the Mail in the last few weeks - obviously the Sabs have got more savvy about using the media.

The point is we are seeing an edited version of an event that was filmed by an individual with their own specific agenda, this was not a well balanced neutral reporting of events.

What we saw on the footage and what actually happened on the day may be very different -

We saw a lady apparently using her horse to move a masked individual in a specific direction, he grabs her reins and she strikes him repeatedly until he lets go. The description of her riding at the sab is to me an exaggeration as it makes it sound like she galloped at him and rode him down, which is clearly not the case.

Was she trying to protect young children from being pulled of ponies or riders on more volatile horses having their horses spooked in an attempt to unseat them or was she frustrated by Sabs blocking a legal activity on private land - We don't know!

What we do know is that the Sab was masked - Whilst not illegal is most certainly intimidating, he did grab the riders bridle and it appears that they were trespassing.

I don't think that the way that the footage has shown the hunt in a positive light, from the way it is edited it, to a non horsy member of the public appears to show a member of the hunt over reacting and beating a Sab viciously, would I do the same if I were mounted and someone grabbed my bridle - absolutely. Would I have put myself in that position, I don't know. I used to hunt with a lady who had no arms and controlled her horse purely with her feet if she or a child were put in danger or intimidated by a masked individual I would like to think that I would put myself in the way.

Well it’s reaching the point where hunts should probably have go pros and other video equipment to hand. There needs to be consequences for the violent/intimidating type of sab. There are plenty of peaceful monitors out and about

 

[cobgoblin]

Interesting. Usually, for something to be theft there needs to be an intention to permanently deprive - otherwise it could be argued to be borrowing. Is that not the case with (ridden) horses?

It would be interesting to know what his intentions were in grabbing the bridle..... Was it a mock up in order to claim that she tried to run him down? Mere provocation in the hope of an assault? Or did he intend to pull her off the horse?

 

[GirlFriday]

I didn't see the woman attempt to run anyone down with the horse.

If you look at the longer clip someon put a link to she clearly does exactly this. The protesters and various foot followers are walking away and she rides up behind them at speed. I suspect the newspaper clip is edited down to show the whipping as that looks more dramatic. But actually from a safety point of view her riding at them at speed (when none of them were near her horse and they were walking away) was the most dangerous thing I saw on there.

Unbelievably lousy horsewomanship and appalling behaviour from the rider. Disgraceful.

And the masked hunt followers throwing rocks at windscreens on the other clip is pretty close to intent to endanger life. Shocking.

 

[ycbm]

It would be interesting to know what his intentions were in grabbing the bridle..... Was it a mock up in order to claim that she tried to run him down? Mere provocation in the hope of an assault? Or did he intend to pull her off the horse?

I think he was well aware she would use the horse to push him off the field and knew that the safest way to stop her doing that was to make it circle around him. When she charges them later, it's clear she has no regard for either them or her horse. She has given the sabs everything they could have dreamed of.

Unfortunately this isn't going to stop until hunts stop laying weak trails which allow them to hunt fox 'within the law'. Drag hunts which lay strong scents are only sabbed by mistake.

 

[Apercrumbie]

She's a foolish woman - the saboteurs are having a field day with this in the media and the public are already anti-hunting. Saying that, if someone grabbed my horse's mouth and tried to hurt him, I'd probably end up in jail.

 

[Hanno Verian]

Well it’s reaching the point where hunts should probably have go pros and other video equipment to hand. There needs to be consequences for the violent/intimidating type of sab. There are plenty of peaceful monitors out and about

I agree - Not all hunts behave impeccably, nor are all Anti Hunt protestors violent extremists, in this day and age you would think that the hunts would be more savvy about proving that they are hunting within the law and dealing with protestors in an appropriate manner.

Although I acknowledge that it is very difficult to do this if you are confronted by a group of very intimidating sabs who are bent on provoking a confrontation so that they can use it against you and the only response from the police is to tell you to report it at the local station.

 

[ester]

They should, a bloodhound pack had an issue earlier in the week and someone commented (presume master?) saying he had banned gopros because he felt that their recording facility was a breach of the rest of the fields privacy with regards to conversations etc. I do think that hunt staff at least should probably consider wearing them and surprised those in the most affected areas don't.

I think also the trouble is that not only are they hell bent in provoking confrontation but they will do so all day, and follow all day so it is not a case of walking away and leaving them. They would also love it if the hunt packed up and went home so it's a bit no win other than getting the police involved.

 

[GTRJazz]

Yes she Certainly made a mess of that situation another example of how saboteurs do not understand horse welfare here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOvMcOwOLQ0 for the record I would never go out and hunt a fox I just like Mock Hunting.

 

[mother_of_poniesx]

I am not condoning them grabbing the horse BUT this woman was riding her horse at them. No way would I use my horse as a weapon like that. I care about my horse's far too much to do that.
Don't get me wrong, if someone grabbed my horse like that for no reason I would be wolloping them to.
I'm sorry but the woman in this video should be ashamed using her horse like that.

 

[BBP]

The law allows a person to use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.
In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:
was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

To use a whip on a person and for it to be deemed reasonable use of force you would have to demonstrate that you felt that your life or the lives of those around you were under significant enough threat of harm that it was reasonable for you to take the action that you did. You cannot repel trespassers by force unless they were conducting a criminal rather than civil activity (trespass is a civil offence).

I cannot watch the footage but it sounds like by riding at the sabs the rider was taking a course of action that was not necessary. The sab grabbing the reins could have forced the rider to use reasonable force 'in the defence of property' if they felt the property (horse) was going to be damaged by the activity but that force would need to be proportional. A very strong man swinging a whip at a very slight female would be viewed differently by the courts to if a slight female used a whip to deter a very strong man. It would be an interesting argument to see in court if they both tried to argue they were using reasonable force.

 

[mother_of_poniesx]

Just wanted to add; In the original video which I watched on fb over the weekend you can see her riding into the sabs. She repeatedly turns the horse and tries to mow them down.
Both as bad as each other imo

 

[Rowreach]

In the days before the ban, when I hunted a lot with a biggish English pack, we were the only pack in the area not to be pursued and continually disrupted by the antis. We had our regular group who would come out and be a bit irritating, but none of the violent, intimidating sort.

The reason for this was that the huntsman and Masters refused to engage with them other than with politeness. The huntsman would tell them the location of the meet the night before, so they didn't need to camp outside the kennels and upset the locals. Field members were told to ignore them. As a result, we were a very boring lot for them to come out with, so on the whole they went to other packs where they got more of a reaction.

I've watched the longer video clip, and while I have no time for antis, and no understanding as to how they can be allowed to don balaclavas and trespass on private property, she asked for it and put herself and her horse into the situation. Needlessly.

 

[rachk89]

Regardless of who is at fault, a court will decide that, the woman has only given us all a bad name when we are trying to get the public on our side to keep horses safe on roads, in hunting etc. Not going to gain sympathy by battering someone with a whip.

 

[KautoStar1]

[QUOTE Drag hunts which lay strong scents are only sabbed by mistake.[/QUOTE]

Don't know about that as I have been out with the Blood Hounds when the sabs have been around, which clear shows their ignorance and the more likely truth that this is about the perceived class structure rather than animal welfare. Indeed I have seen horses stabbed and pepper spray sprayed in hounds eyes. this lot are just rent a mob looking for a cheap day out where they can kick off without having their collars felt.


I don't hunt anymore for various reasons but all of this just reinforces why I don't wish to do so in the future.

I have had someone try to drag me off my horse (not in a hunting situation) and I can tell you, the wretched little man felt the full force of my whip and my horse as I rode him into the hedge. would I do it again, hell yes if I was in danger. However, only in response to the situation.

 

[respectedpony driver]

Why don't the hunts let the sabs and anyone else go on the trail laying so that they can prove they are trail hunting.I have asked again and again to go on the trail laying and have always been put off or ignored.I suspect that is because there is no trail.Everyone including hunters around here know that they are hunting foxes or anything that gets in the way.Shame there is no easy answer.Such violence on both sides must not be tolerated.This woman lost her temper.People usually get that aggressive because they know deep down they are in the wrong.It is animals abuse to set one lot of animals onto another animal for fun.

 

[mother_of_poniesx]

The TC Bloodhounds had a horrible incident on Sunday where they were chased by an idiot in a car shouting abuse. I believe he even drove in to some of the horses.
I have no sympathy for antis that behave in this way or try to intimidate/trespass/hurt people or animals.
Our local hunt has a visit from a group every season. They deliberatly try to intimidate people. We have found simply ignoring them and moving away is the best way to deal with them. Last year we were lucky that a landowner was happy for the hunt to change the route and go through his property and police were called to make sure they didnt follow.
The woman in this video is just giving them what they want - a reaction. It gives them something to shout about.

 

[DappleDown]

Ok. Now I've watched the footage of this incident, questions:

What happened before the man grabbed the horse's reins - why isn't that part of the film available to view?
Why did he grab the reins?
Why was the rider close enough for the man to grab the reins?

In my opinion, both parties acted without wisdom.

 

[ester]

Why don't the hunts let the sabs and anyone else go on the trail laying so that they can prove they are trail hunting.I have asked again and again to go on the trail laying and have always been put off or ignored.I suspect that is because there is no trail.Everyone including hunters around here know that they are hunting foxes or anything that gets in the way.Shame there is no easy answer.Such violence on both sides must not be tolerated.This woman lost her temper.People usually get that aggressive because they know deep down they are in the wrong.It is animals abuse to set one lot of animals onto another animal for fun.

Because many of the sabs aren't that interested in whether foxes are involved or not (hence they turning up to bloodhound and traditional draghound meets) they just want to cause trouble and know which buttons to push. So showing them that a trail has been laid wouldn't mean much to many of them.

 

[respectedpony driver]

Because many of the sabs aren't that interested in whether foxes are involved or not (hence they turning up to bloodhound and traditional draghound meets) they just want to cause trouble and know which buttons to push. So showing them that a trail has been laid wouldn't mean much to many of them.

Many of the sabs would be interested to see the trail laid and lots of other people too,I know I would and it would bring a lot of antis peace of mind.Labelling all sabs as trouble makers is not very helpful

 

[ihatework]

Many of the sabs would be interested to see the trail laid and lots of other people too,I know I would and it would bring a lot of antis peace of mind.Labelling all sabs as trouble makers is not very helpful

I think you need to differentiate between the saboteur - which are generally mindless thugs, and the monitors who are genuinely anti-hunt and on the whole behave reasonably - well at least in comparison to the sabs

 

[stencilface]

I'll be honest I always suspect most hunts are cagey as there's probably something they're up to that's not within the law. I've met too many people who enjoy killing stuff to believe that all hunts are squeaky clean.

Aside from true draghunts.

 

[ester]

I didn't label all sabs, I said many I do also split sabs and antis into different groups, the sabs being their to cause trouble for the day as per the name. I can imagine hunts would agree to do so if they felt that they would get some benefit from it so it probably depends on which people they usually have to deal with. If they have ones that are no bother who would like to see a trail laid it probably isn't going to help the number of altercations that happen with the others.

 

[Judgemental]

The law allows a person to use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:
self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.
In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:
was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?

To use a whip on a person and for it to be deemed reasonable use of force you would have to demonstrate that you felt that your life or the lives of those around you were under significant enough threat of harm that it was reasonable for you to take the action that you did. You cannot repel trespassers by force unless they were conducting a criminal rather than civil activity (trespass is a civil offence).

I cannot watch the footage but it sounds like by riding at the sabs the rider was taking a course of action that was not necessary. The sab grabbing the reins could have forced the rider to use reasonable force 'in the defence of property' if they felt the property (horse) was going to be damaged by the activity but that force would need to be proportional. A very strong man swinging a whip at a very slight female would be viewed differently by the courts to if a slight female used a whip to deter a very strong man. It would be an interesting argument to see in court if they both tried to argue they were using reasonable force.

Exactly I agree with you one hundred percent.

There is another argument and that is the temperament of the horse and what it may do in such an unusual circumstance.

If this were to go to court and the Crown Prosecution Service charged the lady on the horse, one of the major factors that they will have to consider, is the horse and it's history. Frankly they will have a huge barrel of bricks to push up hill, when an equine expert witness is inevitably called to give evidence.

Some horses might see the person holding onto the reins as a threat and turn round and kick them into oblivion and the lady, was merely trying to get the person away from her horse and causing them to release their hands from the reins.

I said in a previous post, I have been in a similar close encounter, but not with a sab grabbing the reins. Had they done so, I know the horse concerned, would have taken his own defensive action and the individual would have almost certainly have been killed or very badly injured.

In the same circumstances, I would have taken the same action as the young lady. Only my weapon of choice would have been a very heavy hunting crop. THEREBY HAVING NO CHOICE BUT TO KNOCK THE PERSON UNCONSCIOUS IN ORDER THAT THEY LET GO OF THE REINS.

That said, it may be the CPS would be obliged to take proceedings against the person, holding onto the reins, for causing criminal distress and anxiety etc.

If the CPS decided not to take any action, I would have thought a private prosecution of the sab, for causing unlawful distress and anxiety to the rider, when in charge of horse, would succeed in the County Court.

Could be worth a bob or two and set a very useful precedent.

 

[Damnation]

What I see is a fustrated person who has swallowed the bait of the Sabs.

I think there is fault on both sides, however if this is a regular occurance then yes you would be fustrated. The fact that Sabs aren't dealt with in a more efficient manner by the law (for tresspass etc) is beyond me. Why they think it is their god given right to tresspass onto someone elses land is beyond me.