I’m not sure what to think….

[Upthecreek]

Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride? That it’s all based on creating loving partnerships? These professionals do what they do as a job and some are prepared to do whatever it takes to get the job done. It’s hard work and they have owners to satisfy and massive financial commitments. The truth is many of them use training methods which most of us would find harsh. But they aren’t doing it as a hobby like us, their livelihood depends on them being successful in their sport so that definitely adds to the pressure.

Oliver Townend gave the explanation that he felt it was acceptable to repeatedly whip Ballaghmor Class at Badminton because he was napping for home. I was there and what I saw was a very tired horse being asked for more than he could give. An amateur rider at a lower level would have nursed that horse home or even retired.

Mark Todd looked like he had run out of ideas and was not prepared to admit defeat. The rider should have put a stop to it. I wouldn’t have let somebody do that to my horse aged 13 never mind 21! I’ve had some really poor experiences at clinics run by big names. Their drive to achieve and succeed isn’t always compatible with amateur riders and horses doing it for fun.

 

[Mule]

I've heard the "waiting them out" approach touted for bad loaders and nappers but it just doesn't wash with me. Doing what they're asked four hours after they were asked it is not good enough, IMO. Pressure is required, and giving the horse two clear options - do the thing or endure an unpleasant time - are good, clear messages to give horses. I think, especially on seeing that last photo, that this looks worse than it was. That in itself is a good, effective way of getting a horse to learn to comply with something it's reluctant to without actually hurting the horse.

I've found 'waiting them out' useful for nappers. The type where applying more pressure results in them going up. It's individual to the horse and the situation ime.
Waiting it out is still a form of pressure because the horse is still being asked the question, but it's a dialed down type of pressure.

 

[AmyMay]

Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride?

How completely condescending.

 

[Upthecreek]

How completely condescending.

Condescending to who? I do think some people are comparing what we do with what people who do it for a living do. Professional riders at the top level of their sport with ten plus horses in training do not have time to spend on the pink fluffy stuff. That’s a fact. Most of them only spend time with the horses when on their backs. They literally get on a horse that has been tacked up for them by a groom, get off and straight onto the next and repeat. They get results, often because they are prepared to use harsher methods than we would to achieve desired outcomes more quickly in training. I’m not agreeing with this, but I do know it to be true. Hence why high level professionals training amateur riders often leads to the kind of thing seen in the video.

 

[Rowreach]

21 is young but perhaps if professional bodies in the horse world (as they do in other profession)stepped up to the plate instead of ignoring everything people would go to them with their concerns rather than posting everything on social media.

And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates? Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.

 

[AmyMay]

Condescending to who? I do think some people are comparing what we do with what people who do it for a living do. Professional riders at the top level of their sport with ten plus horses in training do not have time to spend on the pink fluffy stuff. That’s a fact. Most of them only spend time with the horses when on their backs. They literally get on a horse that has been tacked up for them by a groom, get off and straight onto the next and repeat. They get results, often because they are prepared to use harsher methods than we would to achieve desired outcomes more quickly in training. I’m not agreeing with this, but I do know it to be true. Hence why high level professionals training amateur riders often leads to the kind of thing seen in the video.

I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider. But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude. And not particularly pertinent to this thread.

 

[eahotson]

And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates? Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.

And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates? Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.

She said she was afraid to stand up to an Olympian.I believe her.

 

[luckyoldme]

I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider. But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude. And not particularly pertinent to this thread.

I completely agree with this.
Plenty of us have worked in the horse world and seen it for what it really is. One or two of us walked away and had nothing more to do with it.

Do people really think that most (not all) riders at the top of their sports are as successful as they are because they build pink fluffy bonds with the horses they ride? That it’s all based on creating loving partnerships? These professionals do what they do as a job and some are prepared to do whatever it takes to get the job done/QUOTE]
I'm a person and no I don't expect most of the people at the top to have pink(why pink?) Fluffy bonds with their animals.
there is actually something in-between nose kissing horse owners like I was and the completely disgusting behaviour displayed in that video.


.

 

[wills_91]

And did she express her concerns at the time, or did she edit a clip of the incident with jolly music attached and have a laugh about it with her mates? Until two years later when she decides to upload the whole thing on TikTok with presumably no idea of the consequences (because she is now as much in the spotlight as he is).

I detest any form of cruelty, but I bl**dy loathe trial by social media.

Don't know if it's true or not but the rider has posted saying this happened at the end of the lesson, she hadn't agreed to the horse being hit and she did raise her concern at the time and was told "he wasn't hitting that hard"

Not sure how it's trial by social media? You can clearly see him repeatedly smacking the horse, to me a tired looking horse with a rider giving mixed messages - and people are expressing they are saddened by that, what is wrong with that?

 

[Rowreach]

Sorry I can't quote you because it's embedded, but my point is twofold: she could have expressed her concerns with the organiser, the venue, or BE, if she felt "unable to stand up to an Olympian", but she didnt, she put the clip to music and laughed about it.

Until now, when she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.

I'm wondering about motivation because I don't believe it was BE or anyone else that forced her to out him globally on SM rather than make a complaint along normal channels (and she didn't two years ago because she thought it was funny).

 

[Rowreach]

Don't know if it's true or not but the rider has posted saying this happened at the end of the lesson, she hadn't agreed to the horse being hit and she did raise her concern at the time and was told "he wasn't hitting that hard"

Not sure how it's trial by social media? You can clearly see him repeatedly smacking the horse, to me a tired looking horse with a rider giving mixed messages - and people are expressing they are saddened by that, what is wrong with that?

1. If so, why out the clip to music?

2. It's not just on this forum you know, it's global, companies have already binned MT products from their shelves, the equestrian authorities are reviewing him, etc etc, because of a two minute clip posted on TikTok, out of context, from a session which none of us were witness to.

And no, I don't condone whacking a horse with a branch.

 

[Upthecreek]

I don’t think any of us are under any elusion about what it takes to be a professional rider. But to condescend members by assuming that we expect ‘pink fluffy stuff’ (whatever that means) by these riders is just rude. And not particularly pertinent to this thread.

Okay maybe pink fluffy stuff was the wrong description. What I was trying to say is they won’t be doing the things hobby owners like us do to build a partnership/relationship with a horse over many months or years. It’s pretty much all down to the riding and being very clear with the horse from the start that there will be (often unpleasant) consequences to not doing what is asked of them. And I do think some members are delusional about how professional sports people achieve their success and I also think it’s very relevant to a thread about Mark Todd whipping a horse repeatedly to get it to do something it clearly did not want to do. But it was not my intention to be rude to anybody.

 

[NinjaPony]

I’ve been thinking about this, and I think part of the issue is that professionals are held to much higher standards and scrutiny, so it’s easy to say ‘oh but you see this stuff in ordinary yards etc’, but actually it’s not the same. It’s a trade off; if you want plenty of clients, an international reputation that gives you access to top standard horses, facilities and shows, plus financial rewards, investments, merchandise etc, then you will be and should be held to a much higher standard as you are much more visible. This helps to boost your career but means that you come under greater scrutiny. It’s the old ‘with great power comes great responsibility’. If you want to be considered a role mode, top professional etc, then you have to behave like that, and whacking a horse repeatedly with a branch is not professional behaviour. And if that means we should have a bloody hard look at how top riders are training their horses then I’m all for it, because our sport is a privilege not a right. I would prefer to see action taken by the proper public bodies instead of on social media, but that requires them to get their house in order. Very few people on this forum are ‘fluffy’, but there is a big difference between a smack behind the leg as a quick correction, and repeatedly whacking a horse, seemingly in temper, and I think it does a big disservice to decent trainers to justify his behaviour by drawing a false comparison.

 

[Mule]

1. If so, why out the clip to music?

2. It's not just on this forum you know, it's global, companies have already binned MT products from their shelves, the equestrian authorities are reviewing him, etc etc, because of a two minute clip posted on TikTok, out of context, from a session which none of us were witness to.

And no, I don't condone whacking a horse with a branch.

The most bizarre one is the BHA investigating him. Some cognitive dissonance at work there or more likely, massively hypocritical damage control

 

[Hepsibah]

.....she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.....

She didn't do anything of the sort, he did that all by himself.

 

[Rowreach]

She didn't do anything of the sort, he did that all by himself.

Ok.

 

[Upthecreek]

Great post NinjaPony. There are people on this forum who think it is wrong to hit a horse for any reason in any situation. There are also people who think hitting is acceptable in certain situations but not others. There are people who class all forms of hitting as abuse, some who feel there are different levels of abuse. The same goes for trainers and professionals; what is acceptable to one may not be to the next.

Whatever way you look at it Mark Todd has pretty much ruined his reputation and the high esteem people have held him in for decades.

 

[tristar]

if they so professional, how come he can only find a branch of a tree to whack the horse with, its the sort of thing a 10 year old might grab out the hedge to tickle a pony with



also its a very bad idea to hit a horse with the rider onboard, could provoke the horse to ditch the rider

if i whacked mine like that i am sure they would go into orbit

 

[southerncomfort]

I'm not quite sure how generally you meant this, as opposed to specific questions like training a horse to jump a step down into water, but there are many horses which understand the question perfectly well and are not afraid who would, if the rider allowed, refuse to ever leave the yard where they are kept.,
.

Why would 'the rider allow it' ?

Horses ask questions all the time and it's our responsibility to have the answers or at least the ability to take a step back and think 'why doesn't the horse want to leave the yard?' and come up with a plan of action.

The problem arises when the rider fixates on the reaching the end goal immediately. For sure, I've no doubt you can get the horse off the yard if you decide to take a whip to it but what are you creating? A happy willing partner who trusts the rider or a kind of learned helplessness and a constant battle of wills? I'm genuinely confused why anyone would go immediately to def con one and use brute force when their are other options available. I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

And I don't believe for a second that you would whip a horse off the yard. I believe you have as much respect for horses as I do.

 

[teapot]

The most bizarre one is the BHA investigating him. Some cognitive dissonance at work there or more likely, massively hypocritical damage control

The fact he holds a current trainers licence is probably why.

 

[Fellewell]

Well, I had hoped that Sir Mark would say it wasn't him because he was at Woolloomooloo Pizza Express with Clinton Anderson. But he fessed up and I'm sure his apology to the horse was heartfelt and sincere. At his peak the man was poetry in motion in the saddle and you don't get that way without respect and understanding for the horse. You also don't get there by accepting defeat. As a trainer, his job was to get the horse to accept the bigger drop. Except it was the rider who had the problem with the bigger drop and it was obvious on the approach that it wasn't going to happen since she had mentally downed tools and had the handbrake on IMHO.
To me it looked as though the switch actually made contact 3 maybe 4 times. He could have said ok we'll leave it there and the build up would have been for nothing, the horse would have failed at the final 'hurdle' and lost confidence again. Maybe for him, as a trainer, that just wasn't an option.

 

[ycbm]

Well, I had hoped that Sir Mark would say it wasn't him because he was at Woolloomooloo Pizza Express with Clinton Anderson.

??

 

[ycbm]

Why would 'the rider allow it' ?

Horses ask questions all the time and it's our responsibility to have the answers or at least the ability to take a step back and think 'why doesn't the horse want to leave the yard?' and come up with a plan of action.

The problem arises when the rider fixates on the reaching the end goal immediately. For sure, I've no doubt you can get the horse off the yard if you decide to take a whip to it but what are you creating? A happy willing partner who trusts the rider or a kind of learned helplessness and a constant battle of wills? I'm genuinely confused why anyone would go immediately to def con one and use brute force when their are other options available. I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

And I don't believe for a second that you would whip a horse off the yard. I believe you have as much respect for horses as I do.

I'm not talking about whipping a horse to get it off the yard! I'm talking about giving a bog standard squeeze "walk on" aid with the calves and meaning it.

There are plenty of novice and/or fearful riders who can't muster the amount of "I mean it" to get a horse who is neither afraid nor misunderstanding their request out of the gate on a hack.
.

 

[southerncomfort]

Okay maybe pink fluffy stuff was the wrong description. What I was trying to say is they won’t be doing the things hobby owners like us do to build a partnership/relationship with a horse over many months or years. It’s pretty much all down to the riding and being very clear with the horse from the start that there will be (often unpleasant) consequences to not doing what is asked of them. And I do think some members are delusional about how professional sports people achieve their success and I also think it’s very relevant to a thread about Mark Todd whipping a horse repeatedly to get it to do something it clearly did not want to do. But it was not my intention to be rude to anybody.

And unfortunately this is why equestrian sports will likely die a death at some point.

It shouldn't take aggression and bullying to reach the top.

I'm under no illusions about how hard it is to make a living at the top of equestrian sport but that doesn't make that sort of treatment excusable.

Their have been so many of these stories in the media recently and it gives a really poor impression of equestrianism generally. And that filters down to all of us and how we are viewed by the public so we have a vested interest.

I don't honestly believe that anyone on this thread would do to their horse what MT did on that video and I'm sure it makes us all feel uncomfortable to varying degrees.

I don't know...I'm just sick to my stomach of seeing these videos and having to think about what animals put up with.

 

[Bay.chestnut.coloure]

Sorry I can't quote you because it's embedded, but my point is twofold: she could have expressed her concerns with the organiser, the venue, or BE, if she felt "unable to stand up to an Olympian", but she didnt, she put the clip to music and laughed about it.

Until now, when she has "stood up" to him in a way that has destroyed his reputation and very likely most of his business interests.

I'm wondering about motivation because I don't believe it was BE or anyone else that forced her to out him globally on SM rather than make a complaint along normal channels (and she didn't two years ago because she thought it was funny).

she probably could’ve dealt with it differently but she didn’t put it to music just to laugh about it she posted saying she disapproved probably not know how badly it would blow up, but TikTok is unfortunately a dangerous game as things can go viral VERY quickly. She’s also since said she did say something at the time but was dismissed and told it wasn’t even that hard. I can totally see how it would be hard for anyone to stand up to an Olympic top rider, let alone for a young 21 year old. Of course it’s easier to do over a screen. It probably was the totally wrong thing to do but I’m not sure she was expecting it to get this much attention

 

[Upthecreek]

I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

You’ve hit the nail on the head there. Professional riders competing at the highest level of their sport need horses that will win money and trophies to satisfy their owners and to get the chance to train and compete better horses. So their focus is solely on getting the horse to do the thing. It is not about enjoyment and having fun. I think many of them have forgotten that is why most of us ride and compete. That’s why my girls and I no longer take part in any clinics with ‘celebrity’ eventers. Absolute waste of time in my experience, although I’m sure there are some good ones.

 

[Cortez]

You’ve hit the nail on the head there. Professional riders competing at the highest level of their sport need horses that will win money and trophies to satisfy their owners and to get the chance to train and compete better horses. So their focus is solely on getting the horse to do the thing. It is not about enjoyment and having fun. I think many of them have forgotten that is why most of us ride and compete. That’s why my girls and I no longer take part in any clinics with ‘celebrity’ eventers. Absolute waste of time in my experience, although I’m sure there are some good ones.

Have you ever met or engaged with a professional rider? You plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level.

 

[AdorableAlice]

The fact he holds a current trainers licence is probably why.

At The Races, discussed it this morning. Matt Chapman views it as worse PR for the use of the whip in racing than the Elliott debacle.

 

[ycbm]

I don't want an obedient servant in a horse, I want a willing partner who enjoys life and wants to go out and have fun as much as I do.

Me too, and this comes right back to an earlier comment I made that as long as the horse has an independent brain in its head, no amount of "perfect" training will mean that you get the response you've trained for in every situation, and a smack with a whip is not always wrong or a failure.
.

 

[Upthecreek]

Have you ever met or engaged with a professional rider? You plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level.

Yes quite a few actually ? Please give me your wisdom on what it takes to compete at a high level as I clearly have no clue.