Cortez
Tough but Fair
Have you ever done so?
I’m not sure what to think….
- Thread starter Mistletoeandawine
- Start date
TPO
🤠🏴
There's a difference between being aware of "what it takes" and agreeing that certain methods are acceptable. To not agree with *some* methods used by *some* people doesn't mean that someone is ignorant to whats involved in the training and management of top level horses.
Also an offensive generalisation because there are plenty of people earning their living from horses who don't resort to abuse and cruelty to achieve their aims and who are very successful at what they do.
There is a lot of scope between abusive methods and never saying no, having no boundaries, low expectations and being somewhat pink and fluffy (?).
Also an offensive generalisation because there are plenty of people earning their living from horses who don't resort to abuse and cruelty to achieve their aims and who are very successful at what they do.
There is a lot of scope between abusive methods and never saying no, having no boundaries, low expectations and being somewhat pink and fluffy (?).
AmyMay
Situation normal
I can’t speak for Cortez, obviously. But for the pro riders I know it’s all about passion for the horse, enjoyment of the sport and the thrill (and fun) of riding to the highest standards they can. The pleasure of improving their horses, the relationships they form with their equine partners.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Fantastic post.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Pretty much this.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Of course but the bottom line is they have to produce the goods and some owners put them under pressure to make progress quickly. I was really speaking specifically about international event riders. No Cortez I have never personally competed at the highest level but I have as much right as you to speak from my own experience and what I have seen and heard (from reliable sources). My niece is an international event groom and some of the ‘training’ methods of *some* well known and respected top level riders would make most of us feel extremely uncomfortable. I have also seen it firsthand in clinics that my daughters or I have attended. I am not saying they are *all* like that by the way, but I have been surprised by how many are, and that is why we don’t participate in them any more.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Indeed you do. As have any of us.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/mark-todd-hit-horse-video-777315
Double Olympic eventing champion turned racehorse trainer Mark said in a statement: “I wholeheartedly apologise to the horse and all involved for my actions in this video clip.
“One of the main things I preach is about establishing a mutual respect between horse and rider and that patience and kindness is the best way to get results.
“I believe this is one of the main attributes along with a great empathy with animals that has enabled me to have a long and successful career in eventing.
“I am very disappointed in myself that I did not adhere to that in this case.”
Double Olympic eventing champion turned racehorse trainer Mark said in a statement: “I wholeheartedly apologise to the horse and all involved for my actions in this video clip.
“One of the main things I preach is about establishing a mutual respect between horse and rider and that patience and kindness is the best way to get results.
“I believe this is one of the main attributes along with a great empathy with animals that has enabled me to have a long and successful career in eventing.
“I am very disappointed in myself that I did not adhere to that in this case.”
wills_91
Well-Known Member
I have no idea why the clip to music, I've only watched a video on YouTube and I'm not condoning the rider, you asked a question about the rider and I answered hence why I said "I'm not sure if it's true or not"
Also, yes I am perfectly aware that there is more social media than this forum ?.
I am really struggling to understand the our of context remark that keeps cropping up. Please can you clarify in what context it is acceptable (in your opinion) and what context it would not be? What was your thoughts on the footballer kicking the cat, that was a short clip on social media that none of us were were present for, should we turn a blind eye to that to?
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I didn’t think it was fair of Cortez to say “you plainly have no insight into what it takes to compete at a high level”. I may not share the same insight and experience as her, but that does not mean I have no insight and experience.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Yes, this is true. What is your competition experience?
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I thought that the video was very sad to watch. You could see the fear in the horse - fear of the water and fear of the man hitting him. The horse trying to decide which was worse, and was not given a second to process it all because he was hit continuously. It was in no way productive, the horse didn't learn anything (other than fear) and nor did the rider.
It reminds me of a group lesson I had as a child - one of the girl's ponies was being nappy. The instructor told the girl to get off of the pony. She then proceeded to hold the pony on the spot and beat the s**t out of it. We all watched in horror. We were young girls and she was an adult. She was meant to be a role model. I don't blame the girl for not advocating for her horse. I do blame the so called 'professional' Mark Todd for abusing someone else's horse.
It reminds me of a group lesson I had as a child - one of the girl's ponies was being nappy. The instructor told the girl to get off of the pony. She then proceeded to hold the pony on the spot and beat the s**t out of it. We all watched in horror. We were young girls and she was an adult. She was meant to be a role model. I don't blame the girl for not advocating for her horse. I do blame the so called 'professional' Mark Todd for abusing someone else's horse.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
It did learn that it could jump down into the water and not fall, die, sink, etc - whatever it was scared might happen, didn't. Sometimes horses do need making to do something to realise that doing it wouldn't be the end of the world. Glad MT has acknowledged this wasn't his finest moment though and stated his regret.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
There are better ways to make a horse learn that something isn't scary, then beat them into submission. Lazy and abusive.
stangs
Well-Known Member
It had already been in the water though - repeatedly. Honestly, the more I watch it, the more I think it just needed a few seconds to process the new angle and all would have been well.
I know I’ve needed longer than that to figure out an awkward jump/bog avoidance when out hiking. And I’m supposed to be part of the “cognitively more able” of the two species!
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Why is that relevant? Does every poster need to declare their competition experience before posting on this forum? Are you only qualified to comment if you’ve reached a certain level?
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Not at all but it was you saying that you had all this experience of how riders at top level did things. I was just wondering what that was. I know what I know, I don't know what you know.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Right back at you. I know what I know, I don’t know what you know. Or in fact what any other poster on this forum knows. That does not mean that anyone who has a different viewpoint to you is wrong. Nobody has to justify their experience to you (or anyone else).
SusieT
Well-Known Member
The man himself has apologised and admitted it was not the correct approach to take- so surely everyone else should just take this on board and accept it was not the correct approach?
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I think all riders should do the Aonach Eagach Ridge in Glencoe, or similarly exposed knife-edge ridges (Crib Goch, Tower Ridge, most of the Cuillin, An Teallach, whatever), ideally carrying a backpack filled with heavy gear, just to make their balance while climbing a bit trickier. When they get to the scary exposed sections, where most people who aren't nonchalant about airy ledges go, "Oh, f*ck me, why am I here," their climbing buddies should start yelling and swearing at them, and when they hesitate at that scary pinnacle, their freinds should scream at them some more."Man up." "Just f*cking go." It isn't much fun. That's your horse! You are your horse now.
When Fin freezes at something scary on a hack, I have no problem with giving him a top rope. He's slowly getting better at 'lead climbing,' but sometimes, you just need the damned top rope.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I love this analogy
Generally horses enjoy learning if it is presented clearly and fairly. Sometimes it is the right thing to say to a horse, 'Come on now mate, you can do this and I am right here with you. Let's do it!!' Other times you really do need to say 'Hey mate, no worries - I'll take it from here and no pressure to do this today.' Knowing which approach is required when, is horsemanship.
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
Why does this have to turn so snipey, ?
What does it matter how much experience anyone has ?
That video shows a man hitting a horse with a stick to try and convince it that there's nothing to be scared of .
Hardly someone to look up to is he ?
What does it matter how much experience anyone has ?
That video shows a man hitting a horse with a stick to try and convince it that there's nothing to be scared of .
Hardly someone to look up to is he ?
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Thats the horse world for you! Always someone who thinks because they have done something a certain way for years, thats the only way and the right way. They justify it to themselves and others because thats the way its always been done.
This is why its hard to get some horsey people to change, A horse is scared to do something so what do we do? Hit it to make it more scared and also in pain but its ok because thats the way we do it.....
If its questioned they try to put you down with saying things like " Well I have trained horses to such and such a level for years and its done them no harm...
Personally I would rather a horse is given the time and training so its not scared, either of me or of what I am asking it to do. If it needs beating to do something then its a massive fail of your training.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
For anyone who thinks you have to hurt animals to get them to do something, try looking up co operative care.
scats
Well-Known Member
I dislike the idea that you can only comment or know about these things if you’ve competed at that level. The holy grail of horsemanship to me is not defined by how many horses you have trained or ridden at GP or how many international events you have competed at. That’s rather insignificant to me, to be honest. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum from people who might never have reached those heights of success (and probably never wanted to) but are blimmin’ good horse men and women. The welfare of the horse should always come first and just because people do worse or have done it that way for years, doesn’t mean it should continue.
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Well yes, surely anyone in his situation with that behaviour caught on camera would apologise and say they were wrong in an attempt to save their reputation and their business? I’m not sure that makes me feel any less disappointed in him. There are incorrect approaches to training and I’m sure we can all think of plenty of mistakes we’ve made. And then there is an international event rider with decades of experience resorting to chasing someone else’s horse and whacking it with a whippy stick at a clinic. I wonder what possessed him to do that? Apart from it being bad for the horse and rider it makes him look like a fool. Do people think it’s plausible that it’s the only time in his many years in the sport that he did something like that? I hope so.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I don't think you have to have competed at a certain level in order to have an opinion on what that might entail...
however i do give credence to those who have done, because they might have insight that onlookers do not.
I've only nibbled round the edges of GP but the difference between PSG and GP was absolutely eyewatering in terms of effort required from horse and rider, just that tiny bit of experience was a bit of a shock to me, and I am someone that has watched GP riders competing and training for years. trying to do it myself was a reality check.
likewise i would not believe i could quite understand what it takes to event 5* from my experience at Novice.
I have an inkling. but I expect that actually making it happen on a daily basis is quite different.
none of that stops anyone from wanting to see the very best examples of horsemanship at all levels, of course, and theoretical discussions make up 90% of this forum so it also doesn't make anyone's opinion invalid IMO. but i do think it important to listen to those who have been there and done it.
however i do give credence to those who have done, because they might have insight that onlookers do not.
I've only nibbled round the edges of GP but the difference between PSG and GP was absolutely eyewatering in terms of effort required from horse and rider, just that tiny bit of experience was a bit of a shock to me, and I am someone that has watched GP riders competing and training for years. trying to do it myself was a reality check.
likewise i would not believe i could quite understand what it takes to event 5* from my experience at Novice.
I have an inkling. but I expect that actually making it happen on a daily basis is quite different.
none of that stops anyone from wanting to see the very best examples of horsemanship at all levels, of course, and theoretical discussions make up 90% of this forum so it also doesn't make anyone's opinion invalid IMO. but i do think it important to listen to those who have been there and done it.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I think that the continuing problem for horse riders is - what do you do if your horse naps behind the leg?
Classical (and BHS as a derivative of that) horsemanship is to use a schooling stick behind the leg to reinforce the aid (and in some riding for example side saddle, to replace the leg aid).
'Natural' horsemanship use a 'wip wop rope' to hit the horse behind the leg. Or the suspiciously whip-like 'carrot stick'.
Do you sit and wait it out? Do you get off and lead (rewarding the horse by removing your weight)? Sometimes horses nap because they are scared, worried or over-faced. But sometimes they are just lazy and don't want to work - but very few people will pay to keep a horse that won't work in return.
What is the solution?
Classical (and BHS as a derivative of that) horsemanship is to use a schooling stick behind the leg to reinforce the aid (and in some riding for example side saddle, to replace the leg aid).
'Natural' horsemanship use a 'wip wop rope' to hit the horse behind the leg. Or the suspiciously whip-like 'carrot stick'.
Do you sit and wait it out? Do you get off and lead (rewarding the horse by removing your weight)? Sometimes horses nap because they are scared, worried or over-faced. But sometimes they are just lazy and don't want to work - but very few people will pay to keep a horse that won't work in return.
What is the solution?
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Are you looking at the second time he hit it though?
scats
Well-Known Member
Oh totally agree with that, but I think the opinion of the non-competitor is just as worthy too. Not everyone who gets to the top does it because they are a brilliant horseman. I do teeter on the verge of thinking that we ask too much of horses at the top level.
I can think of 3 people that I know personally who have competed at what is considered the highest level in their disciplines, and I would not want any of them sitting on my horses.