I’m not sure what to think….

[AdorableAlice]

I agree but most of us don't come from a horsey background so we have to rely on trainers.When I wanted to do some driving I went to the Parkers.I told them when I booked and they said they preferred teaching people from scratch.

I agree, but you would have understood horses when going to Parkers for driving lessons. I fancied driving a few years ago when we somehow ended up with a driving pony in the yard for the summer. I went to a lady in Wales and had a few lessons in woodland but found it rather scary as I am used to having the neck and head a bit closer to me ! I did come away able to harness and balance the trap and go for an amble safely.

We all rely on professionals to teach us, but being as prepared as possible is vital.

 

[milliepops]

bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning.

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that. there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation. but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.

 

[Arzada]

oliveira the great would have explained to them that if the horse did not like something or was afraid, to re assure it, show it there is nothing to fear, then the horse would remember that kindness and have confidence in the rider next time it sees something scary.

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

 

[palo1]

bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning.

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that. there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation. but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.

Yes. I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all. MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios. In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'. I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree. It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything. These things happen though it isn't great to see. I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation. Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result. I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.

 

[palo1]

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

Yes and that is good practice IF you are in a position to call those shots. If you are paying for a 1 hour clinic you and the others would be/might be reasonably ungrateful if the trainer stood by and just advised to take as long as necessary whilst smoking/ reading a novel/ taking or making business calls on their phone! Waiting it out is great but not when you are paying by the hour... It is a problem with competition and all that surrounds it in some ways. Our equestrian culture is very largely 'results' based and predicated on our time frames, competitive expectations and funds until or unless you are lucky enough to have really excellent training and little competitive 'ambition' or you have many opportunities to allow training to be of the best calibre.

 

[humblepie]

I would have stopped with the horse going through the water happily and worked on going down drops and then tried to put the two together with an experienced lead horse or similar and as someone else said the other horses standing the far side of the water.

 

[milliepops]

Yes. I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all. MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios. In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'. I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree. It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything. These things happen though it isn't great to see. I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation. Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result. I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.

Yep and i think stuckness can happen when it's a single shared session with a fair amount of expectation from the client side, because there isn't time esp with other people in the group to explore alternatives, and SOMEONE has to speak up and say "you know what, it's a job for another day, let's move on" but people don't seem to do that very readily.

something i've really valued is developing a relationship with one trainer over the years, who knows how i tick, we know there will always be another session, it's not all one-way either as he has told me that my weird horse has taught him stuff, so it's a positive spiral .
In the past i've had fantastic one-off lessons on a more straightforward horse from other olympians which were lifechanging but they were 1:1 and the horse's comfort zone was very big so again it was all very positive.

 

[eahotson]

Yes. I don't think in the clip shown here that anyone is advocating for the horse at all. MT could have said 'stick with improving the canter and the ramp into water' to keep the horse feeling confident about that ask or the rider could have said 'We still don't feel great about water, we'll stick with the ramp for now and do the step another time' or any number of other scenarios. In this clip though, everyone looks 'stuck' in terms of expectation; the horse is stuck because it clearly doesn't want to 'do' what is asked in the way that we would all prefer to see, the rider is possibly stuck around her expectations of the outcome of the clinic, around her view of the trainer and other participants and possibly even her own riding confidence in this situation and MT looks totally stuck in terms of training 'techniques'. I am pretty certain he has other ways of achieving what he has been able to do, with many horses, than bad old-fashioned whacking with a bit of tree. It's just a bad 'moment' really where no-one gets anything good or really achieves or learns anything. These things happen though it isn't great to see. I have experienced a similar 'stuckness' with a difficult horse and with a trainer who clearly had a total brain fart; resulting in a dangerous to all sort of situation. Trainer apologised but I never returned and I DID learn to advocate for both myself and horse as a result. I am sure people have learnt stuff from this clip of MT as well as the experience at the time.

I totally agree.We must be prepared to act as àdvocates both for ourselves and our horses.And yes hopefully we have all learned from this.

 

[TPO]

Yes in an ideal world anyone turning up at a clinic would be fully prepared, horse & rider fit and there would be no gaps in training up to the level of the clinic.

I don't think I've even seen or attended a group lesson where every single participant ticked those boxes.

Isn't part of going to a clinic with any trainer to get guidance and advice? Even if that advice is that you aren't ready/need to go back to basics/have together your horse fit before attending type thing.

As part of this ideal world we'd all have access to hills, off road riding, xc fences and water to school with and/or transport to visit suitable locations. That very often isn't thr case and people can only do the best that they can eith what they know and what they have available.

I've known many a person without access to facilities or resources for regular training save up and have a big spend day of hiring transport and booking an expensive lesson with BNT.

Also to be specific the rider was 20/21 in the video. That is still very young to have enough experience to know what you don't know and where the holes are. As posted perhaps she did know that there were issues with water and she, understandably I'd said, presumed an olympian BNT could help with that.

Every chance I'm projecting knowing what is coming but to me the riders riding/position alters when she clocks MT with the bigger branch. In her shoes and at her age I'd definitely have reacted similar in that I would panic and have an I ternary monologue as to hoe incompetent me tells olympian MT he's wrong to have a branch ready to scare and hit my horse. I'd panic that I had to get to right for my horses sake or else he would be hit. My riding would fall to pieces, I'd tense and the horse would react then MT would do what he did.

The mother trucking blogger defends (?) MT by saying that it (hitting and scaring horse with branches) had been happening all lesson so perhaps rider thought they were done when she had the horse going in and out of water nicely. Who knows

But regardless of whatever music was put on top of it, how OK a random blogger thinks it is, how many times the insult snowflake gets banded about what MT did to that horse is not OK. Its not ok now and it wasn't OK two years ago.

 

[Patterdale]

He was silly, thoughtless and ineffectual.

It wasn’t ineffectual though - the horse went in.

I am glad that I grew up in a time when any mistakes I made were less public. Social media certainly has plusses and minuses.

Yep and me. NO one, not a single one person, not even the Dalai Lama grows up happy that their every move has been careful, well thought out, reasoned and kind, and happy for it all to be publicly shared.
Except some HHO posters that is ?

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

Maybe if he’d used a different method it would have just gone in then they could have both gone and done something more productive…!
But it would be so boring if we all did everything in the same way

 

[milliepops]

In the case of someone who knows they have issues with training, for me the correct course of action is not to do a group session but to book a one to one where you aren't impacting on 3 or 4 other riders while you deal with the problem. Doing things like this in a group situ where everyone has coughed up ££ and been streamed in a group of (ideally) similar abilities puts everyone under too much pressure when a hiccup appears.

I can understand why big trainers offer these, but ideally there would be some thorough screening rather than just taking everyone's cash and trying to *make it happen* for them all

 

[Sandstone1]

I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.

I'd be taking the view of someone who was actually there and knows the horse and the rider over the opinions of those who weren't any day.

That stick was not rotten, you can hear the sound of it hitting the horse. It was one of those whippy sticks probably willow. If some one wacked you 10 times on the bum with that you wouldnt be sitting down for a week.

 

[dunthing]

Does anybody have a link to the video? I’m not sure if I’m being dense but can’t see it in the article?

Struggling to believe it’s MT without seeing for myself.

Not that it makes a difference to the actions, but because he’s always been a bit of a hero :-(

I met him a couple of times at Badminton and he seemed quite friendly and easy to talk to. Very disappointed to read this about him. If he had hit my old boy like that, he would have got both barrels from him.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It wasn’t ineffectual though - the horse went in.

Depends on what you mean by effective, though.

If you mean that the horse was eventually hassled into jumping down the step into the water that one time, then yes, it was effective.

If you mean that the horse and rider have been set up with the skills to jump confidently down steps into water in the future, then I very much doubt that. Though MT would have long taken his money and beggared off by then.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Deleted. Link already been posted

 

[Rowreach]

I read the statement by Chloe who made some important points one of which is that she was only 21years of age at that time.She did not feel able to speak up to a much older Olympian sportsman.She was also frightened of the backlash which sadly she is getting now.It would help if people had somewhere they could voice their concerns,BSJA,BHS,British eventing/Dressage etc. where people would take note rather than having to resort to twitter et.al.

"Only 21"? but not able to advocate for her horse, if she felt MT's actions were inappropriate, but now at "only" 23 she thinks that by going public on SM and ending up all over the world press and destroying someone's life and career (and probably not doing herself any favours in the process) she's now got it right?

I'm pretty sure there were several other avenues she could have used, two years ago, to address this.

 

[teapot]

If you go on a little search (given how open the video owner’s social media accounts are), there’s a post from 2020 saying how he’s the only horse she knows that will jump into water happily but hates dropping in.

Maybe as @milliepops mentions re clinic situations they were all asked if there was anything specific they wanted to work on… Clinics are the worst place to do that.

A huge mess all round.

 

[SantaVera]

I'm not an event rider or trainer. Not even close.

But in my experience (40+ years), the very best riders and trainers have happy, willing partners who will do anything the rider asks because they've always been treated fairly and considerately.

If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid. In neither of these scenarios will the stick help unless your only goal is 'get this horse in the water this one time at any cost'.

A more helpful solution would be to break the question down and take the time it takes for the horse to understand the question and feel brave enough to want to try. For me, unless the horse is allowed to think it through and make the decision to try for himself, you might solve the 'how do I get this horse in the water right now as quickly as possible' question, but you've not solved the 'how do I help this horse be brave and unafraid and happily pop in and out of the water' question.

I think people forget how frightening entering water can be for a prey animal, and what a wonderful feeling it is when your horse overcomes its fears and tries its heart out simply because it trusts its rider.

I'd far rather that than my horse do something simply because he's been bullied in to it and fears the repercussions if he doesn't. Where's the joy, pleasure and pride in that?

It's a basic respect for the horse. It should underpin every single thing we do with our horses every day.

Best post on the whole thread. 100% agree.

 

[Mule]

[

bit of a side shoot and not justifying poor treatment of the horse, but i think this highlights to me that one off clinics can be tricky and sometimes you have to accept you're not on the right horse for one, or not at the right point in that horse's learning.

For the last 7 years i've ridden a horse that i've been really protective over for that reason, she's not the type to cope with any abrupt change in methods or to deal with excess "heat of the moment" pressure.

It's a bit of an impossible situation if we as riders aren't really aware of that. there have been posts on here about people frustrated by lessons where they were made to do things that were "too basic", then you have this kind of example where there's an expectation that horse and rider are ready for, and will answer a cookie cutter kind of session where everyone achieves a similar outcome or has a comparable experience.

i also think it's really important that we all learn to advocate for our horses and if someone tells you to do something that doesn't sit right at the time, or for that horse, one way or the other you get out of that situation. that doesn't have to be a really big confrontation. but it's the only way to change the "offer" in terms of training or clinics, i think.

If he took things slower and worked on improving the horse's confidence it may have taken the length of the lesson or several lessons but he would have got nothing done with the rest of the group. They would be unhappy then.

It's not good on the rider's part to bring a horse with a problem to a group, one off type of lesson. If she knew about it in advance that is.

 

[NinjaPony]

Ugh, horrible to watch, ineffective long term and nasty experience for the horse. Would really love to see these kind of methods assigned to the rubbish bin for good, it is not an acceptable way to train an animal. Horses are such generous creatures, it breaks your heart to see it sometimes. Doesn’t matter who it is, it’s still unacceptable. In those kind of situations, a trainer should be able to work around the issue or at least de-escalate, rather than resorting to brute force. Lots of horses don’t like water, the answer is time and patience and trust, none of which were shown here. Yuck.

 

[palo1]

Yep and i think stuckness can happen when it's a single shared session with a fair amount of expectation from the client side, because there isn't time esp with other people in the group to explore alternatives, and SOMEONE has to speak up and say "you know what, it's a job for another day, let's move on" but people don't seem to do that very readily.

something i've really valued is developing a relationship with one trainer over the years, who knows how i tick, we know there will always be another session, it's not all one-way either as he has told me that my weird horse has taught him stuff, so it's a positive spiral .
In the past i've had fantastic one-off lessons on a more straightforward horse from other olympians which were lifechanging but they were 1:1 and the horse's comfort zone was very big so again it was all very positive.

Yes, this, so much!! I think that longer term investment and trust in teaching/training is something that has been quite largely 'lost' in our equestrian culture (and other places too). There is such a drive for 'novelty', for 'connection' with the elite as well as a desire for success that we have developed a habit, in a sense, of thinking that a super-clinic or experience will sort stuff out, put us on the right track, re-frame our riding etc etc. And sometimes a one-off clinic can be transformational but it really doesn't work without an absolutely solid foundation of training that takes the longer view, the benefit of incremental achievement, problem solving, that has openness, mutual trust and respect and time on it's side. That is also something that requires real time and financial investment which is not easy for many. It has become more 'fashionable' to shout out about how a 1 time experience 'changed everything' rather than realising that fairly grinding hard work, week in, week out with just 1 trainer and their committment is what reaps rewards. I think it is very easy to be led astray by promises of stepping up another level or finding an entirely new way of doing things and of course those things are possible but there has to be a lot of work behind that and those improvements tend to be really specific.

Young riders are also (I know - I was once there!!) keen to make progress and working on the basics or fundamentals can be both dry and difficult to maintain motivation. We all need a degree of novelty, new challenge and 'hope' in our training. We have to have 'ugly' or ropey moments as we get to grips with new stuff. I don't think whacking a horse with a bit of branch is 'ugly' - it's just daft and ineffective but perhaps MT and this rider had a sense of wanting or needing to 'achieve' a particular outcome (ie getting off that pesky step!).

My own students, I hope, feel free to go off and learn other, new and possibly more 'exciting' stuff with others in addition to the work they do with me (as long as they tell me what they have learnt lol) - for me it is a privilege to do the daily grind as there is a real sense of investment in that and from a personal perspective I believe that this is the 'solid foundation' that learning new skills needs. Rather than spending a large sum on a BNT it may be better to divvy that across a number of less pressured training sessions; allowing for the time to come back to stuff that isn't working.

 

[TPO]

It's not good on the rider's part to bring a horse with a problem to a group, one off type of lesson.

But if we didn't have "problems" why would we need trainers?

If I hadn't managed to train a horse to jump into water, and my usual selection of trainers hadn't then I too would probably think "ah, BNT is running a clinic, they'll know how to fix it given their job involves jumping into water". Usually on clinic entry forms there's a bit to write about anything you are having trouble with and want to work on.

I don't think you can blame anyone for taking a horse with an issue, who's entry has been ACCEPTED by the people running the clinic, to a clinic.

Having been the person left sitting while one person "hogs" the lesson I do know how frustrating it is. I still don't see any reason to resort to whipping a horse in that manner and for those reasons.

It's near impossible to get a private lesson with some trainers. In this case it's not usual for MT to be teaching in Scotland. So I don't think a private lesson with BNT is an option in many cases.

I can't fault her logic in taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc Olympic champion!

 

[Michen]

Oh wow. I just watched it and assumed it would be him sort of tapping the horse repeatedly behind- not lifting the stick up in the air to get as much force as possible.

That doesn't make for pleasant viewing.

 

[tristar]

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

i have a horse who will go up to the ramp when loading, and just stands there, i have tell everyone to go back, don`t chase, in a while he decides its ok and walks on calmly and travels well, i see no need to change my system, perhaps i should buy a packet of fags

there is great wisdom in that tale about oli

 

[Michen]

Sorry if already posted- account from someone who was there

https://www.facebook.com/mothertruckingeventers/posts/357063863090806

 

[ycbm]

If a horse refuses to do as its asked it either doesn't understand the question or its afraid.

I'm not quite sure how generally you meant this, as opposed to specific questions like training a horse to jump a step down into water, but there are many horses which understand the question perfectly well and are not afraid who would, if the rider allowed, refuse to ever leave the yard where they are kept.,
.

 

[ycbm]

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

What a waste of time if the horse would have happily walked on if he'd tickled it with a whip, as most will.
.

 

[palo1]

But if we didn't have "problems" why would we need trainers?

If I hadn't managed to train a horse to jump into water, and my usual selection of trainers hadn't then I too would probably think "ah, BNT is running a clinic, they'll know how to fix it given their job involves jumping into water". Usually on clinic entry forms there's a bit to write about anything you are having trouble with and want to work on.

I don't think you can blame anyone for taking a horse with an issue, who's entry has been ACCEPTED by the people running the clinic, to a clinic.

Having been the person left sitting while one person "hogs" the lesson I do know how frustrating it is. I still don't see any reason to resort to whipping a horse in that manner and for those reasons.

It's near impossible to get a private lesson with some trainers. In this case it's not usual for MT to be teaching in Scotland. So I don't think a private lesson with BNT is an option in many cases.

I can't fault her logic in taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc Olympic champion!

I get that too and now I really want to know why that particular horse didn't want to do the step down; it's not usually that difficult to 'teach' - I wonder why, when he/she is clearly not worried about paddling/trotting through the water the horse doesn't want to do what is a very small step down into water. There are some interesting training and experience issues to think about here! In the last few years we have had several horses to start here at home and they have all tackled this 'ask' differently; 1 pony - very carefully and sensibly with a tiny hop down or up; A well bred warm-blood adopted the style of 'a giant leap for mankind' up or down (needed a brave and relaxed rider which he had thankfully), an Arab type who clearly wondered what the point was but then learnt very quickly the best, most economical way to get the job done and a Welsh Cob who didn't give it a moment's thought and acted as if she has spent her life doing this exact thing lol! All were introduced initially in hand, very casually with no expectation of success but just a gentle enquiry, then asked to do either a hop up or hop down under saddle, with a lead and then when really confident both ways on their own. The 'step' we use is initially a 2 foot step off or onto natural rock and then a 1 metre true 'bank' where some effort has to be put in. We don't do it for xc competing reasons but purely because sometimes our hacking/outriding needs that skill and confidence. As it seems quite a sequential 'teaching' task I am interested to know at what point problems or anxiety set in for this horse.

 

[Cortez]

What a waste of time if the horse would have happily walked on if he'd tickled it with a whip, as most will.
.

The Mestre did like his ciggies....

 

[Tiddlypom]

So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue.

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.