I’m not sure what to think….

[milliepops]

So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue.

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.

I don't think that's what anyone was saying.Personally i wouldn't take a horse that i knew had a big issue that i wanted to deal with, in a group with several other riders, because it means the trainer's time can't be split up fairly - that's all. If you were one of 4 or 5 in a group and the trainer had to spend ages on one rider while you stood around watching your £££ time passing you by, wouldn't that be a bit irritating?

 

[milliepops]

I'd add that i think a clinic is a good way to get a low-commitment view on the way someone trains, so you can decide if you'd like to invest in further training with them. but i wouldn't really expect a group session to be the way to get enough 1:1 attention to work through anything significant.

 

[Blanche]

TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.

I worked with horses for decades and never beat seven types of sh!t out of a horse. It is not necessary. Please don’t tar us all with the same brush. You may not be able to control your temper but other people can. I have worked with all sorts of horses and ponies over the years, mainly youngsters but competition horses too. No where would it have been acceptable to treat an animal like this.

There's a vast difference between getting annoyed or frustrated and beating up and/or inflicting pain on an animal.

I've managed to get annoyed and walk away. I've managed to suitably reprimand animals without terrorising them or inflicting pain. I've managed to train horses without ever using a whip, forcing them or beating them into submission.

If an idiot like me can manage it I'm not sure why anyone else can't...or more likely, won't.

But thanks for making it easier to know who to avoid posts from on here. Good luck with the gymnastics

??

 

[Michen]

So apparently some think that you are not supposed to take a horse with a known issue to a clinic, even if you declare the issue beforehand. Clinics are supposedly not the places to sort out an issue.

So only horses and riders who are already doing wonderfully well and need no special help should attend clinics?

Best that the organisers put that on the application form, then. Only apply for a clinic with a 'name' if you just fancy a nice day out working well within your comfort zone. We don't want to inconvenience any of the other participants, do we.

Erm, I do agree with this to an extent. I would not take a horse with a known, long standing issue with ditches (for example) that I knew would need a good chunk of time to work through. I don't think it's particularly fair on other riders if you KNOW the instructor will have to spend a long chunk of time fixing an ingrained problem.

Obviously sometimes these things happen anyway but if I had a major problem I'd be telling the instructor beforehand and suggesting that unless it's quickly rectified, we move on to something else so that it can be worked on with as much time as necessary, privately.

 

[Flame_]

Nuno Oliveira once smoked an entire packet of cigarettes while waiting for his horse to cross a stream. I can't recall if this was in one of his books or in an article about him.

I've heard the "waiting them out" approach touted for bad loaders and nappers but it just doesn't wash with me. Doing what they're asked four hours after they were asked it is not good enough, IMO. Pressure is required, and giving the horse two clear options - do the thing or endure an unpleasant time - are good, clear messages to give horses. I think, especially on seeing that last photo, that this looks worse than it was. That in itself is a good, effective way of getting a horse to learn to comply with something it's reluctant to without actually hurting the horse.

 

[palo1]

I'd add that i think a clinic is a good way to get a low-commitment view on the way someone trains, so you can decide if you'd like to invest in further training with them. but i wouldn't really expect a group session to be the way to get enough 1:1 attention to work through anything significant.

This. A clinic is a great opportunity to view a trainer's approach, achieve more 'finesse' or to see a different way of doing things but probably not to introduce something completely new or problem solve around something tricky and potentially time-consuming/something that can't be 'dealt with' in a single session. In xc terms I might expect a BNT to provide insight into alternative lines to fences or to identify general trends in your riding that could be addressed. I would always want a clinic with a BNT to provide a bit of 'inspiration' but it isn't really the setting for in depth discussion which might be needed if a horse has an issue about something.

 

[teapot]

There are problems/issues and then there are problems/issues.

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole.

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.

 

[milliepops]

yeah i think the key thing is what can be done as a one-off. it's a bit like magical loading training, the owner/handler has to be able to replicate it multiple times to benefit.
Palo's example of giving lightbulb moments around lines to fences is a good one because the *rider* can benefit from that immediately - they can grasp what they've been told in that one-off session. a horse that has a problem like water probably needs more repetition in a similar set up in order to get lasting effects.

(i had a lightbulb on lines to fences in a one off session... was a coursewalk with a pro actually so no horses even involved at that point! stuck with me for life)

 

[palo1]

There are problems/issues and then there are problems

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole.

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.

That is interesting. It sounds like she has a particular set of 'fundamentals' that need to be in place before progressing and I reckon that is probably wise. I know as a younger person I felt that endless lessons in walk and halt with a difficult horse were extremely tedious (and probably beneath me too hahahaha) but the trainer was able to communicate exactly WHY these fundamentals needed to be in place before anything else was done. And we did end up with a fabulous walk and halt lol!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Erm, I do agree with this to an extent. I would not take a horse with a known, long standing issue with ditches (for example) that I knew would need a good chunk of time to work through. I don't think it's particularly fair on other riders if you KNOW the instructor will have to spend a long chunk of time fixing an ingrained problem.

Obviously sometimes these things happen anyway but if I had a major problem I'd be telling the instructor beforehand and suggesting that unless it's quickly rectified, we move on to something else so that it can be worked on with as much time as necessary, privately.

Exactly this, a shared clinic needs to be a group of horses working at the same level with the same goals to get the very best 'value' out of the lesson. Everyone wants to come out of the session feeling they have achieved and learnt and with homework. Private lessons are for better for problem horses or for specific training needs. There are some amazing trainers, not necessarily in the public eye and not household names who for me, are far better than the 'big' names for more average riders. Trainers that you can pick the phone up to and ask a question in between lessons or coaching sessions for instance.

The BHA are now looking into the Mr Todd issue according to the racing post. It has been a bad week for animal welfare yet again. A drop kicked cat and an abused horse by well known public figures.

 

[milliepops]

That is interesting. It sounds like she has a particular set of 'fundamentals' that need to be in place before progressing and I reckon that is probably wise. I know as a younger person I felt that endless lessons in walk and halt with a difficult horse were extremely tedious (and probably beneath me too hahahaha) but the trainer was able to communicate exactly WHY these fundamentals needed to be in place before anything else was done. And we did end up with a fabulous walk and halt lol!

totally off topic but my trainer tells an anecdote about training with Kyra Kyrklund, had a GP horse and went to work on piaffe/passage transitions iirc. she made him walk and halt all session until that was *GOOD* and at the time as a young rider he found that immensely frustrating, but as i understand it the principle is the same, if you can't walk and halt properly then you sure as hell can't expect pi/pa transitions to be any good.
it's the "eat your vegetables" element of horse training, you have to spend time on the ultra boring for the rest to become easy, boo hoo!!

 

[Sandstone1]

Its not great that one of the worlds top riders has to resort to violence. Most of us could chase a horse and wack it with a stick. Not much finesse there. Wonder what they were paying him for that clinic.
Has he never heard of ending on a good note. Had they stopped when the horse went in it would have been far better.

 

[TPO]

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards

Just because MT resorted to this doesn't mean that it was the ONLY way to get the horse forward. It certainly wasn't the way to get the horse going forward confidently.

I can't see how his actions reflect on anyone other than him.

I can't do the mental gymnastics to blame the rider for taking a horse with a xc issue to a xc clinic

Agree with michen that the problem should have been declared and discussed but a trainer shouldn't have started something they couldn't finish (without resorting to whipping the horse with a branch) and ended on a high having built the horses confidence and hopefully imparted some wisdom to the rider about how to get and keep the horse in front of their leg.

A trainer of MTs experience should have known to call it a day at the water long before it escalated to him whipping g the horse.

Based on the statement from the "defending" mothertrucker the attack on the horse wasn't "new" and the session was spent terrorising this horse "hiding in bushes" and chasing with branches ?

 

[palo1]

totally off topic but my trainer tells an anecdote about training with Kyra Kyrklund, had a GP horse and went to work on piaffe/passage transitions iirc. she made him walk and halt all session until that was *GOOD* and at the time as a young rider he found that immensely frustrating, but as i understand it the principle is the same, if you can't walk and halt properly then you sure as hell can't expect pi/pa transitions to be any good.
it's the "eat your vegetables" element of horse training, you have to spend time on the ultra boring for the rest to become easy, boo hoo!!

YES!! Eat yer veg every day. I think that expectation of 'boring' work that needs doing has been somewhat lost as equestrianism has become so popular as a leisure activity. We all feel entitled to have fun and enjoy it so much that unless we take training seriously on an emotional level it can feel a bit unrewarding. I think this can be made worse too as horses are so generous and often quite prepared to put up with a not inconsiderable level of inexperience/lack of fundamentals that we can get away without always working on what is needed. I am grateful for that though too because without that extraordinary willingness of horses and their ability to join the dots for us many of us would never have experienced the childhood thrills of riding! We do owe it to them to invest in our own training at every level.

 

[milliepops]

YES!! Eat yer veg every day. I think that expectation of 'boring' work that needs doing has been somewhat lost as equestrianism has become so popular as a leisure activity. We all feel entitled to have fun and enjoy it so much that unless we take training seriously on an emotional level it can feel a bit unrewarding. I think this can be made worse too as horses are so generous and often quite prepared to put up with a not inconsiderable level of inexperience/lack of fundamentals that we can get away without always working on what is needed. I am grateful for that though too because without that extraordinary willingness of horses and their ability to join the dots for us many of us would never have experienced the childhood thrills of riding! We do owe it to them to invest in our own training at every level.

this is a likefest but i totally agree. "it's supposed to be fun" is like fingernails down a blackboard to me i would prefer that be replaced with it's supposed to be fair which brings us back to the point of the thread, no it wasn't fair on the horse to do that, it wasn't fair of MT to put the horse in the position where it couldn't answer the questions in that environment and it possibly wasn't fair of the rider to not bring the session to a close before it escalated, as mentioned previously probably everyone involved has learnt a bit from this whole thing.

 

[milliepops]

in respect of blaming the rider, i'm not blaming the rider for the horse's mistreatment, that was solely in the hands holding that branch. but I do think that as riders we know our horses better than anyone, we have to be the ones that uphold their best interests - we might be wrong about the training but if you feel like your ethics are being compromised you're the only one who has the power to change things.

knowing your horse well puts you in a powerful position and does give you the ultimate responsibility IMO, it's why i never took my weird horse to clinics, because i knew it was the easiest way to protect her odd personality from the effects of Trainer Ego etc. If i wound up in a lesson that i believed had affected her welfare i'd blame myself as her owner first and foremost because it was in my power to leave.... of course it's also correct to criticise poor training as well.

 

[Sandstone1]

Sorry if already posted- account from someone who was there

https://www.facebook.com/mothertruckingeventers/posts/357063863090806

Good pic of " rotten stick" Dead rotten branches do not have leaves growing on them....

 

[AdorableAlice]

There are problems/issues and then there are problems/issues.

If a horse has a problem so bad one of the best in the world ends up smacking it with a tree branch to get it forwards, then no maybe a clinic isn’t the best idea, for everyone involved.

Clinics with pros are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Look at the opinions some people have over Lucinda Green’s clinics, where regardless of your level, ability, competition background, she will not let you jump anything solid unless you’re safe in trot over a 50cm skinny pole.

I know of a couple of people who have come back bemoaning her approach as ‘beneath’ them.

This is so right, many years ago I dressage trained with a largely unknown but highly respected trainer in Warwickshire. She competed at Grand Prix on very ordinary or problem cast off horses and her ability to pass her knowledge on was fabulous. I was still in walk on lesson four with my huge young ID, lots quarter turns, halts, shoulder fore etc but all walking and if made a mess she would get on. I learnt a tremendous amount from her and have never forgotten any of it. 'And halt' is forever etched into my brain !

She always kept it simple and said to me, if you can't control him in halt and move the whole horse in walk and put him where you want him in balance and with cadence, you have no hope in trot. Wise words and to be fair you don't need a special horse to achieve control, respect and basically correct paces. With those in place you do have a safe horse willing to trust and listen to his rider and try for the rider. The horse went onto medium with me, a fat, frightened and frankly crap rider. I lost him far too young and whilst buying another horse to replace him I had two lessons with an Olympic British team member on a horse I was thinking of buying subsequently did buy. I was made to feel a nuisance, hopeless and a waste of her time withing 20 minutes of each lesson starting.

I still bought the horse as he was very very special, he was at medium. I took him to my lady in Warwickshire and back to walk we went because despite his level of training, I couldn't ride him and he couldn't cope with me. A good trainer is gold dust and they don't have to be a name.

 

[eahotson]

"Only 21"? but not able to advocate for her horse, if she felt MT's actions were inappropriate, but now at "only" 23 she thinks that by going public on SM and ending up all over the world press and destroying someone's life and career (and probably not doing herself any favours in the process) she's now got it right?

I'm pretty sure there were several other avenues she could have used, two years ago, to address this.

21 is young but perhaps if professional bodies in the horse world (as they do in other profession)stepped up to the plate instead of ignoring everything people would go to them with their concerns rather than posting everything on social media.

 

[teapot]

Just because MT resorted to this doesn't mean that it was the ONLY way to get the horse forward. It certainly wasn't the way to get the horse going forward confidently.

None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook… This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.

I still stand by taking a possibly problematic horse to a group clinic with an unknown to you coach/trainer isn’t necessarily the best idea, nor fair on the horse.

 

[eahotson]

This is so right, many years ago I dressage trained with a largely unknown but highly respected trainer in Warwickshire. She competed at Grand Prix on very ordinary or problem cast off horses and her ability to pass her knowledge on was fabulous. I was still in walk on lesson four with my huge young ID, lots quarter turns, halts, shoulder fore etc but all walking and if made a mess she would get on. I learnt a tremendous amount from her and have never forgotten any of it. 'And halt' is forever etched into my brain !

She always kept it simple and said to me, if you can't control him in halt and move the whole horse in walk and put him where you want him in balance and with cadence, you have no hope in trot. Wise words and to be fair you don't need a special horse to achieve control, respect and basically correct paces. With those in place you do have a safe horse willing to trust and listen to his rider and try for the rider. The horse went onto medium with me, a fat, frightened and frankly crap rider. I lost him far too young and whilst buying another horse to replace him I had two lessons with an Olympic British team member on a horse I was thinking of buying subsequently did buy. I was made to feel a nuisance, hopeless and a waste of her time withing 20 minutes of each lesson starting.

I still bought the horse as he was very very special, he was at medium. I took him to my lady in Warwickshire and back to walk we went because despite his level of training, I couldn't ride him and he couldn't cope with me. A good trainer is gold dust and they don't have to be a name.

I so agree.

 

[TPO]

None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook…

This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.

Maybe he did but the answer is still NEVER the tactic that he resorted to.

"Oh poor man, he tried everything and whipping a scared horse was his only option. Its so unfair that he is being held accountable for HIS OWN actions". Cry me a river

 

[AmyMay]

None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook….

In which case why not say that this is something that needs quietly working on in a one to one session, to build up the confidence of horse and rider?

 

[eahotson]

None of us know what took place in the previous 55 minutes though? Maybe he tried everything else in his textbook…

This is the problem of trial by social media of a 1 minute video.

I don't like trial by social media but what else can you do?Suppose I had been there,filmed it and sent the film with a complaint to British Eventing.What do you think the outcome would have been?

 

[meggymoo]

That clip seems so at odds with how he came across. He seemed so laid back and relaxed. He looks a bit demented in that clip - in the sense that he has lost it.

Basil Fawlty but without the humour? (The one where he beat his broken down car.)

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.

So according to them all horse riding is cruel but putting a paralysed dog into a wheelchair and manually expressing it 4 x a day is fine?! This organisation baffles me.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

A friend of mine, through her connections in eventing, was given an extremely famous event horse when it retired. Obviously ridden by an extremely famous event rider. He took a while to settle but became an absolutely lovely horse. His former rider was in the area and paid a visit. The horse became visibly distressed , friend said the change in him was awful to see. Once old rider had left horse returned to normal.

 

[eahotson]

A friend of mine, through her connections in eventing, was given an extremely famous event horse when it retired. Obviously ridden by an extremely famous event rider. He took a while to settle but became an absolutely lovely horse. His former rider was in the area and paid a visit. The horse became visibly distressed , friend said the change in him was awful to see. Once old rider had left horse returned to normal.

Tragic.

 

[teapot]

Maybe he did but the answer is still NEVER the tactic that he resorted to.

"Oh poor man, he tried everything and whipping a scared horse was his only option. Its so unfair that he is being held accountable for HIS OWN actions". Cry me a river

I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't be held accountable, myself included.

But in terms of clinics and known issues, people would be naive to assume it will always be 100% nicey nicey, pink and fluffy with a pro in that setting. Pros will in my experience expect a little more and will push more too (to a point of let's call it a day, we're not getting anywhere after perhaps more pushing than someone at home would, not to beating horses levels obviously).

I just can't understand why it hasn't surfaced before now...


I was at a BHS convention one year, yes a BHS convention!, and a very well known coach explained what they were about to do before starting, it was not for videoing, and if people weren't happy, to leave. It was NOWHERE near what Toddy did, nor did it involve touching a horse in any way, shape or from, but they were VERY aware of how it would look taken out of context. Something clearly forgotten in this context for sure and what is now not publicly acceptable.

In which case why not say that this is something that needs quietly working on in a one to one session, to build up the confidence of horse and rider?

Playing devil's advocate, how would we know it wasn't? No one knows what was said in the heat of getting the most out of a clinic at a three figure rate no doubt.

I don't like trial by social media but what else can you do?Suppose I had been there,filmed it and sent the film with a complaint to British Eventing.What do you think the outcome would have been?

Given BE's social media policy, they may well have been interested. As AA has said, the BHA are looking into it - that's the body that should be, unless Toddy is down as a BE coach?

 

[babymare]

Having watched the video many times I’m now not so much angry but sad. Sad a hero of mine as yet again brought our hobby/sport under the microscope of people who will only see the bad and not the good we all give and experience. Back when training if a horse was hesitant or unwilling an established horse would give a lead( one particular hunter comes to mind who babied many a young horse over jumps and gave them confidence ?). I am also sad because I question what goes on behind closed doors at MT yard. And that’s sad because all respect has gone. Such video’s fuel the likes of PETAs screaming horse riders are cruel etc. There are many views and arguments on this post but we has a collective need to say MT actions were wrong. A sad day for eventing. A sport I love