I’m not sure what to think….

[EMSPony]

He has stepped down as a patron of WHW. I don't think he had much choice.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/horseracing/17643439/mark-todd-steps-down-charity-horse-whip-video/

 

[littleshetland]

You are obviously being sarcastic, but can anyone explain the point of having horses that can't be ridden by anyone except oneself? Surely that is limiting the horses chances in life?

As I'm sure you know, they're all different, as are the humans that ride them. The pressure at which we apply the aids, length of leg, weight and how we shift our weight subtly in the saddle all have an effect on how the horse goes obviously. Pretty much anyone can sit on any of mine and get a reasonable tune out of them (with some guidance from someone who knows the horse very well ie...me). The problems I've encountered is when people with a mighty high opinion of themselves and their riding skills comes along and and instantly expect the horse to understand different pressures and aids applied slightly differently without allowing time for understanding exactly the new horse that they're riding. As I'm sure you know, the more educated and trained the horse, the more subtle and nuanced the rider has to be - this is never a good mix when an arrogant stranger sits on and expects the horse to perform with perfect understanding of what's being asked of it. Ive been the 'arrogant stranger' myself before....lesson learned.

 

[EMSPony]

I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch...51682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way. It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.

 

[My_breadbagel]

it’s a same about mark todd. I’ve always loved his brand but I’ll stop buying now (or at least brand new).
I won’t pretend to be the perfect rider though. Admittedly, as much as I always thrive to be as quiet as possible (a principle of dressage) I do get frustrated at times, always with myself, and the moment my horse feels me tense up he just stands there and waits for me to get a grip. I’ve spent years getting us into that getting us into that great habit, that when things do go wrong, we just take a break, change the topic, and go back to what went wrong and try again. I genuinely like having a horse that’s so tuned in that we can have a conversation going.
Side note- training a horse to stop when you tense up is something I learned at a professional yard. Now if I loose my balance, let’s say during a no stirrup session, my dear old boy says “not today” and goes back to walk. One time we were jumping, I lost my balance as he took it about a foot too high, and he then slowed on landing, let me right myself, and then cantered on the moment I felt central. I’m professional, but that was my proudest moment. It’s little skills like this I think any horse and rider should have.

 

[Sandstone1]

On BBC news now.

 

[Chianti]

I wonder if there are other well known trainers worrying about video clips from some of their demos and clinics getting onto social media?

 

[Mrs B]

I am far, FAR more concerned about the witch-hunt happening right now than I am about anything in the original footage.


Edited for NinjaPony ?

'I am far, FAR more concerned about the baying mob who are currently intent on destroying MT, his reputation and his livelihood (and all those who may associate with him or take a slightly more nuanced view) than I am about anything in the original footage.'

 

[Roxylola]

I am far, FAR more concerned about the current witch-hunt happening right now than I am about anything in the original footage.

Yes, I don't think it justifies the level of vitriol and boycott threats. Bad decisions were made all round, hes owned it and apologised he can't change the past.
I stand by what I said previously, what happened was not right or correct at all. I do not endorse that. I also don't think it makes him an animal abuser or that he deserves the venom he's receiving.
I've made mistakes, I've done things I regret I've learned from them and tried not to repeat them. I can't change the past though

 

[NinjaPony]

Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context. Witch-hunts refer to a supernatural phenomenon, something that did not exist, people only believed it existed. No one actually was a witch, it was a cultural and psychological phenomenon (incidentally a fascinating one), where people were put to death for crimes they could not have possibly committed, accused by their neighbours with very little ‘proof’, for a number of reasons.
Criticising an internationally famous rider and trainer who has been caught abusing a horse on camera is not a witch-hunt. It’s not the same thing.
Obviously I’m not condoning targeted social media attacks, but I don’t think we should shut down legitimate criticism of public facing professionals. Actions have consequences unfortunately and HHO is absolutely the right place to be discussing this, as this issue inevitably affects the rest of the horse world too.

ETA I just wish the rest of the internet was able to have a discussion like this one without descending into the kind of nastiness that involve death threats etc

 

[scats]

I don’t like the social media attacks on MT as a result of this. I understand that people are angry, but some of the things I have read are frankly vile. He has apologised and he really can’t do any more about it now. I was so disappointed to see his actions on the video, but I am prepared to accept his apology and hope its not something he will do again.

 

[eahotson]

I was browsing 'equestrian books' on amazon last night, looking for my next read, and this popped up

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cant-Watch...51682&sprefix=equestrian+books,aps,81&sr=8-19

I haven't ordered it, but it sounds pretty eyebrow raising, and made me think how much top level sport really needs to clean up both it's image and its actions if people are going to carry on using horses in this way. It's really getting harder to justify the 'norm' for a lot of people.

I have that book.

 

[BBP]

I don’t have anything to add to either side of the argument as much has already been said. However I’ve seen a few people wondering what goes on behind closed doors and I can say that in my limited experience of working for him, his horses were happy well cared for horses being trained from the field. I never witnessed anything to suggest that this sort of action was typical of him.

 

[Mrs B]

Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context.

Yes, you do get the 'Pedant of the Year' award
See my above edit to my original post ...

 

[Rowreach]

Ok please can I make the same pedantic correction I always make when the term witch-hunt gets used in this context. Witch-hunts refer to a supernatural phenomenon, something that did not exist, people only believed it existed. No one actually was a witch, it was a cultural and psychological phenomenon (incidentally a fascinating one), where people were put to death for crimes they could not have possibly committed, accused by their neighbours with very little ‘proof’, for a number of reasons.
Criticising an internationally famous rider and trainer who has been caught abusing a horse on camera is not a witch-hunt. It’s not the same thing.
Obviously I’m not condoning targeted social media attacks, but I don’t think we should shut down legitimate criticism of public facing professionals. Actions have consequences unfortunately and HHO is absolutely the right place to be discussing this, as this issue inevitably affects the rest of the horse world too.

ETA I just wish the rest of the internet was able to have a discussion like this one without descending into the kind of nastiness that involve death threats etc

A lot of words and terms that have their origins in specific circumstances are used more loosely in modern parlance. As in the earlier post.

Take the expression Sweet FA for example. Anyone who knows the origin of that who had any decency would not use it (I hope).

But I think the poster above who referred to a “witch hunt” made a point which most people got.

 

[NinjaPony]

I know it’s pedantic but I think it’s important to make the distinction between ‘legitimate criticism of an individual based on evidence’ and the modern use of witch hunt which suggests an irrational, hysterical and vindictive attack on individuals.

As I said, I’m obviously not condoning any of the more extreme behaviour. But I think there is a tendency to shut down criticism of public figures by accusing people of going on a witch hunt, whereas I actually think most of us here are pretty surprised and shocked to have seen MT behave like this, and at least the discussion here has been measured. The challenge for MT is going to be winning back trust, he has apologised which is the right thing to do, but that reputation he had built has suffered because of this and it’s going to be hard to persuade people that no such incident has happened since.

 

[AdorableAlice]

A life time earning respect and a nano second of poor judgement to lose it very sadly. Something we all have to consider in the modern world of instant information and not just in the equine world.

 

[Upthecreek]

I think those making vile comments about MT and making death threats are morons. I can however see why people associated with him in a professional capacity might want to distance themselves and why many that have looked up to him feel disappointed. He is obviously in the business of selling equestrian products and I imagine this will negatively impact sales.

If anything positive is to come out of this hopefully it’s another reminder to people that behaviour like this is unacceptable and can be easily filmed and shared. And the consequences can be a severely damaged reputation and a big financial hit.

With the other cases in the news recently I expect quite a few people’s arses are twitching at what might come out next.

 

[Rowreach]

I think those making vile comments about MT and making death threats are morons. I can however see why people associated with him in a professional capacity might want to distance themselves and why many that have looked up to him feel disappointed. He is obviously in the business of selling equestrian products and I imagine this will negatively impact sales.

If anything positive is to come out of this hopefully it’s another reminder to people that behaviour like this is unacceptable and can be easily filmed and shared. And the consequences can be a severely damaged reputation and a big financial hit.

With the other cases in the news recently I expect quite a few people’s arses are twitching at what might come out next.

I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.

 

[Boulty]

My take on this is that it's not ok & is poor horsemanship regardless of who did it but that there is an added level of disappointment that someone who spent so many years at the top of the sport & was idolised by many really felt (at the time) that THIS was the best tool in his surely extensive toolbox to "help" this horse & rider. I agree that the rider isn't riding all that positively / effectively on the approach for whatever reason (& I know I ride like a bag of crap when I'm worried, emotional or frustrated) & that it may have been frustrating for him if he felt his instructions weren't been listened to but this should not have been a high pressure situation compared to some of what he will have come across whilst competing. As an elite sportsman he will likely have had access to training the rest of us could only dream of & as part of that it's highly likely some will have been sports psychology related IE how to keep your cool when under pressure. I'd imagine if he's had training in coaching something similar should have been covered then also? Your average low level instructor may get away with saying they didn't know what else to do but I don't think this applies to MT.

I know there's the argument that in a dangerous situation you do what you have to in order to get you & your horse out alive. But this really was NOT one of those situations... Nobody was in danger here (apart from MT if the horse had decided to kick him... Another reason why this wasn't an appropriate example for him to be setting).

 

[TPO]

I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.

Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who have gone through their life with animals without beating them or purposely scaring them?

I've made a lot of mistakes, and will undoubtedly make more, but if my every move around horses had been filmed I'd be happy for any of it to be posted anywhere. I don't think that I can be alone in that?

I'm not perfect but I do genuinely love horses and being around them in any capacity. There has never been an intention behind my actions similar to that displayed by MT in that video.

I haven't discussed this matter anywhere else online apart from here. Nothing can reverse what happened but I think (which doesn't hold any value) there is merit in discussing what happened and the topics that spin off from the original actions.

I stand by my thoughts that there is a "sickness" in horses where where worst think is to be a "pink fluffy bunny hugger" and the whole, I dunno, stiff upper lip and "suck it up" attitude to "teaching the horse a lesson". I do genuinely adore horses (or mine at least!) and would never want to see the look in his face that the grey had because of MT

 

[Rowreach]

Is it really that hard to believe that there are people who have gone through their life with animals without beating them or purposely scaring them?

I've made a lot of mistakes, and will undoubtedly make more, but if my every move around horses had been filmed I'd be happy for any of it to be posted anywhere. I don't think that I can be alone in that?

I'm not perfect but I do genuinely love horses and being around them in any capacity. There has never been an intention behind my actions similar to that displayed by MT in that video.

I haven't discussed this matter anywhere else online apart from here. Nothing can reverse what happened but I think (which doesn't hold any value) there is merit in discussing what happened and the topics that spin off from the original actions.

I stand by my thoughts that there is a "sickness" in horses where where worst think is to be a "pink fluffy bunny hugger" and the whole, I dunno, stiff upper lip and "suck it up" attitude to "teaching the horse a lesson". I do genuinely adore horses (or mine at least!) and would never want to see the look in his face that the grey had because of MT

I'm sure there are people who have never beaten (the definition of that word would be wide ranging) or purposely scared an animal. I'm equally sure that the majority of people who bay for blood in these situations could not, hand on heart, claim to be innocent of ever having done things which, with or without the benefit of hindsight, could be construed as cruel.

I think it's naive to think otherwise.

I also think that if this was a one-off then MT shouldn't have his life destroyed over it, and if it wasn't a one-off then wtf have the hundreds (probably thousands) of people he's taught over the years been doing, allowing it to happen?

** Usual disclaimer to add that I'm not condoning cruelty in any form, for those about to jump down my throat.

 

[SantaVera]

if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.

 

[TPO]

I also think that if this was a one-off then MT shouldn't have his life destroyed over it, and if it wasn't a one-off then wtf have the hundreds (probably thousands) of people he's taught over the years been doing, allowing it to happen?

Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done ?

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone ??‍

 

[tristar]

if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.

so true

 

[Rowreach]

Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done ?

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone ??‍

Yes I agree, I have a real issue with humans laughing in any situation where an animal is finding something stressful, and I agree that the "oh but it was so funny" brigade need to take a look at themselves - some of the "funny animal videos" that pop up on Facebook just go to show that people who think they are animal lovers really have no clue what the animal is actually going through.

 

[eahotson]

if a dog is hit or its paw stood on it yelps. Horses dont. if they did I am sure their lives would have been better, they have endured and continue to endure lots of pain and suffering. think of racehorses being whipped when they are already giving their all, if they cried out then people would realise the harm they are doing, being horses they dont and so suffer more and more.

That absolutely.

 

[tristar]

the still posted back somewhere shows that horse on its knees, yes ON ITS KNEES as a result of the treatment it was getting, it could it resulted in the horse slipping off the edge and landing on the rider.

the horse looks very green and not very fit

the horse already jumped the lower aspect of the obstacle twice i think so why not stop and come back another day, let the creature have time in the stable to process the days events, but no it has to be beaten vilely at full force by a grown man

there is no excuse, is it on its knees through terror? i don`t know, first its going towards the jump, then it hesitates, the rider asks it to go on then a man beats it with a twig, then it looks at the water then goes down on its knees, just how much can one creature process at one time?

it jumped the smaller element greenly, so why push on immediately, this is where the trainers judgement is sorely lacking, a decent trainer would use incremental stages, ie until it was totally confident at the smaller element hold back till tomorrow

the injustice shown to animals is heartbreaking we should know better by now

stuff the beating man, this is about the horse

 

[Equi]

Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done ?

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone ??‍

He has. Many times. And it’s not in the mainstream media because he’s not “famous” enough.

 

[Upthecreek]

I don’t disagree but I’m astounded at the number of faultlessly blamelessly innocent people out there who happily lob stones at the likes of MT and others when these things appear online.

I can’t understand what people think they are achieving by slagging him off on Facebook and I will never understand the mentality of people threatening violence. But hand on heart I can sleep well at night knowing there aren’t any videos of me whacking horses. That doesn’t make me a perfect person who never makes mistakes, but I don’t hit, smack or kick animals or people. Yes people make mistakes, but in all of the recent cases I struggle to believe the behaviour caught on camera were isolated incidents and that the people involved hadn’t done similar previously.

 

[TPO]

He has. Many times. And it’s not in the mainstream media because he’s not “famous” enough.

That was my point!