I’m not sure what to think….

[Peglo]

Rightly or wrongly I do think it was a one-off in a clinic situation. Mainly because I'm sure other footage would have surfaced by now if it wasn't.

If that Mother Trucker blogger and some replies on here are anything to go by 1) people are willing to excuse and reason away anything if done by someone they like* 2) they inexplicably find it funny, as that seemed to be the whole "defence" that Mother Trucker put forward. 3) it got the job done ?

* if, for example, Harry Evans had been filmed doing the exact same at MT I'm pretty sure the whole forum would be calling for his head and willingly tagging Chris Packham!!

Edited to delete all the random full stops that I seem to type on my phone ??‍

This is my thought also. If I’d posted that video of me and a friend smacking my horse 10 times with a stick and tried justifying it by saying it worked because the horse went in the water I think there would be a unanimous outrage towards me. And rightly so. I’m sure I would be told anything from ‘get a trainer’ to ‘don’t keep horses.’ I’m not sure why swapping in a professional changes anything.

I don’t want his blood or anything and I’m not against giving my TB a smack if shes being dangerous but I am shocked by that “training” technique and can’t quite understand how it helped. But I’m an amateur so ??‍

 

[RHM]

What frustrates me about these situations is the holy than thou attitude of a lot of people. I think everyone has forgotten human beings are flawed, you can be a good person and have a error of judgement and do a bad thing. Just as occasionally “bad” people can be kind.

Regarding this situation it’s clear he went too far, and even he acknowledges this. He should have punishment such as losing his position as patron of charity. However, I don’t think a one off should warrant a social media shit show. Absolutely call out bad behaviour but at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most and I don’t believe you get to that level without having a real partnership with your horses along the way. He isn’t a long time animal abuser, or at least there is no evidence of this.

As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.

 

[AandK]

As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.

I think this is a key point, all the people making excuses for what happened are clearly unaware of how much the non-horsey public's view does matter. These old school methods need to be confined to the history books, or we can all kiss goodbye to horse sport, or even riding horses full stop. We live in different times compared to even 2 years ago.

 

[TPO]

at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most

So if a "legend" does it then they are allowed a free pass for a blip but if a teacher/footballer/Harry Evans does it then its OK if the matter is taken further?

It doesn't matter if a deity itself descended (or rose) and did this to an animal. It is not OK and it is not excusable.

He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.

People shouldn't be using whips in the manner that MT used the branch. Nor should people be using whips to scare or force horses to do something even more so when the animal is visibly worried and scared.

Phoebe Buckleys response is just ad bad as Mother Truckers. Oh the rider had a water jump issue and he fixed it ? surely at some point a "legend" would know it wasn't a one clinic fix or that more work was needed to fix the basics and build a solid foundation. I doubt that a "legend" was embarrassed or worried to say to a be90/100 person that he couldn't fix the issue in a group clinic.

There are a plethora of ways to build a horse's confidence through, and jumping into water, and none of them need to involve whipping a horse so that it stumbles to its knees and decides that the water is the less scary option.

But yeah, legend, cool...

 

[TPO]

even 2 years ago.

And things weren't that different two years ago, of at all, it's not like we are viewing footage from the 70s say.

Not that it was acceptable in the footage but not that much had changed in the frozen pandemic years

 

[milliepops]

in fairness to RHM i didn't read it as though legend = free pass. but a history of good horsemanship vs one (known) bad episode is a better ratio than someone like HE.

Many of us also felt that what's happened to that teacher exceeded what was proportionate. i think if you look purely at the social media storm that holds in both situations. The footballer... possibly different because the club did not appear to be doing anything meaningful at least to begin with so social media outrage may have nudged them into action. There's never a justification for death threats etc regardless though.

 

[TPO]

There's never a justification for death threats etc regardless though.

Agree and those people should also have consequences in line with the law

 

[Blanche]

I don’t have anything to add to either side of the argument as much has already been said. However I’ve seen a few people wondering what goes on behind closed doors and I can say that in my limited experience of working for him, his horses were happy well cared for horses being trained from the field. I never witnessed anything to suggest that this sort of action was typical of him.

I had a similar experience when I worked for Lynn Russell way back in the late eighties. I only worked there for about seven or eight months but never saw anything untoward. I left as I didn’t enjoy the constant turnover of the dealers, nothing else. I never watched the video that was her downfall so can’t pass judgment on it.

 

[Mule]

Horse owners are a bit weird in that learning theory is novel to many of us. Many of us haven't even heard of it. Other large animal keepers are far more advanced their knowledge of training. We have negative reinforcement and positive punishment down somewhat, but positive reinforcement is still looked at askance by many. Although many people use negative reinforcement and punishment innefectively too. I think it comes down to the 'show him who's boss' attitude. People who work with whales, elephants and similar don't have that.

I think it would be a good thing if all of us sought out information on the science of training rather than rely on handed down knowledge. Even if we are happy with what we are doing, more knowledge is always a good thing.

Equitation science is a good source for understanding the application of learing theory with horses. It's not a 'method', it's established science.

 

[tristar]

What frustrates me about these situations is the holy than thou attitude of a lot of people. I think everyone has forgotten human beings are flawed, you can be a good person and have a error of judgement and do a bad thing. Just as occasionally “bad” people can be kind.

Regarding this situation it’s clear he went too far, and even he acknowledges this. He should have punishment such as losing his position as patron of charity. However, I don’t think a one off should warrant a social media shit show. Absolutely call out bad behaviour but at the same time acknowledge the context. Eg this man is an Eventing legend more talented then most and I don’t believe you get to that level without having a real partnership with your horses along the way. He isn’t a long time animal abuser, or at least there is no evidence of this.

As a side note, I showed the full video to my non horsey OH and although he thought what happened was cruel. He could se no difference to that and people using whips. Which I thought was interesting as a member of the public perception.

the context? a legend who could not think of a better way to do something so simple and basic as show a horse the way to enter water

i hope it shows non legend people just what an illusion a legend can be, and to learn to listen to themselves when working with their own horses and not follow and be in awe of er.....legends

 

[NinjaPony]

I’ve finally braved looking at some of the FB comments on the HH article (unsurprisingly the discussion is much better over here!) and I’m actually pretty disheartened to see people actively defending his actions, rather than just calling for reflection rather than immediate fury like most of us here. I don’t think it’s acceptable to defend the methods shown here, it’s not surprising the public often think horse riding is cruel when they see FB comments claiming that any criticism of the video is just people who don’t get how to train horses, or an over reaction, or a pointless ‘witch hunt’.

You can both condemn the behaviour, whilst acknowledging that in the context of his career, it (hopefully) looks like an isolated incident. As a sport, we cannot keep defending this type of behaviour, just because it’s someone very well liked and respected. What kind of message is that sending? That it’s fine to wack a frightened horse into submission, the ends justify the means? We all know the difference between a short sharp smack for bad or dangerous behaviour, and this kind of prolonged assault.

Does that mean MT should be receiving vile abuse? Of course not! I really do hope he has reflected on his behaviour and why he resorted to that, and has taken steps to make sure it never happens again either in public or at home. I’ve always had a lot of respect for him historically and I’d like to see some reflection and learning carried forward and discussed.

As a sport, we need to understand that defending the indefensible is a one way street to public condemnation. I love our sport, and I love horses and I can’t imagine my life without them and I’m sure most of us are the same. That doesn’t mean I’m prepared to stand up for behaviour that is clearly unacceptable, just because it’s coming from someone I’ve respected. Let’s hope this acts as a bit of a wake up call for all of us, including other professionals, and a rethink about what methods are considered acceptable. That’s much more nuanced then either flat out condemning the man, or reacting defensively because it’s someone the sport likes and trusts.

 

[RHM]

So if a "legend" does it then they are allowed a free pass for a blip but if a teacher/footballer/Harry Evans does it then its OK if the matter is taken further?

It doesn't matter if a deity itself descended (or rose) and did this to an animal. It is not OK and it is not excusable.



People shouldn't be using whips in the manner that MT used the branch. Nor should people be using whips to scare or force horses to do something even more so when the animal is visibly worried and scared.

Phoebe Buckleys response is just ad bad as Mother Truckers. Oh the rider had a water jump issue and he fixed it ? surely at some point a "legend" would know it wasn't a one clinic fix or that more work was needed to fix the basics and build a solid foundation. I doubt that a "legend" was embarrassed or worried to say to a be90/100 person that he couldn't fix the issue in a group clinic.

There are a plethora of ways to build a horse's confidence through, and jumping into water, and none of them need to involve whipping a horse so that it stumbles to its knees and decides that the water is the less scary option.

But yeah, legend, cool...

Haha sorry but think you misunderstood what I meant by legend. Not at all that he deserves a free pass. If anything he should be held to a higher account by the public. But I think if you can have a career as long as his in the public eye and only have one incidence of poor behaviour surely it would be safe to assume this is not normal behaviour for him?

I think another interesting point in regards to cruelty in our sport is that hitting our animals is until very recently has been normalised. I think it’s difficult particularly for the public to understand is you would never dream of hitting your dog or cat but there are circumstances most horse owners would hit their horse.

Either way I agree with others the public perception is very important if we want to continue our sport into the future. We all need to play a part in that.

 

[tristar]

Horse owners are a bit weird in that learning theory is novel to many of us. Many of us haven't even heard of it. Other large animal keepers are far more advanced their knowledge of training. We have negative reinforcement and positive punishment down somewhat, but positive reinforcement is still looked at askance by many. Although many people use negative reinforcement and punishment innefectively too. I think it comes down to the 'show him who's boss' attitude. People who work with whales, elephants and similar don't have that.

I think it would be a good thing if all of us sought out information on the science of training rather than rely on handed down knowledge. Even if we are happy with what we are doing, more knowledge is always a good thing.

Equitation science is a good source for understanding the application of learing theory with horses. It's not a 'method', it's established science.

there was a program on the tele, zoo based, they needed to take blood from a giraffe, so stuck its head in a bucket of food and drew said blood, it was a bit high upits so obvious but worked really well, so when the vet needed to inject a horse here who is a bit needle shy according to who is doing it, [long story] i did this and not a moments problem, it was a super vet though

the same horse this morning walked between a steam roller and giant digger, en route to the field, just feet either side, with the digger arm working not a moments hesitation, the noise was terrific, i was so proud of him
positive reinforcement and reward in kind could be underestimated

 

[planete]

One of my vets is really keen on positive reinforcement. She managed to inject Woody intravenously in five minutes by rewarding standing still while she rested her fingers on the intended injection site a few times ( he was shaking her off at first), same with tapping, then injection. A different vet had thought twitching him would succeed but could not get near his nose. I was glad as I am always weary of twitched horses, I have seen a few twitched horses suddenly explode and known of people badly hurt in the process.

 

[palo1]

I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else? OH and I found it too horrific to watch. Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated. It was very disturbing.

 

[Upthecreek]

I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else? OH and I found it too horrific to watch. Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated. It was very disturbing.

I watched it all and felt sick to my stomach. Animals being treated with such disrespect and cruelty, like a product rather than a living feeling being.

Is this due to mass farming requiring cheap labour to be employed? People who just want a job, rather than people who are truly interested and invested in the industry and actually care about the animals. I don’t know. I just can’t get my head around why people are deliberately nasty to animals.

 

[palo1]

I watched it all and felt sick to my stomach. Animals being treated with such disrespect and cruelty, like a product rather than a living feeling being.

Is this due to mass farming requiring cheap labour to be employed? People who just want a job, rather than people who are truly interested and invested in the industry and actually care about the animals. I don’t know. I just can’t get my head around why people are deliberately nasty to animals.

We couldn't watch all of it but it felt like a very different kind of attitude/abuse to that which has been discussed in this thread earlier. Casual, deliberate and appalling brutality doesn't even come close as a description. My OH is a farmers son and we have our own stock, we are familiar with handling large animals, we are familiar with death through various means including slaughter. Both of us were sickened at the treatment of those cows - it felt utterly alien to our experience and the knowledge we have of our neighbours and farming community. There was a total lack of connection, empathy or respect and that isn't something we commonly see or sense. You may be right about cheap, unengaged and uninvested labour @Upthecreek. I don't know. I would say we love and respect our stock, albeit knowing that they will go to slaughter (we have a few beef cattle - very low intensity, rather than dairy). Dairy cattle are such a committment and investment in time, money and infrastructure I am totally at a loss as to how and why that kind of appalling behaviour could be tolerated. Those poor, poor cows. It sickened me that no-one on those yards called it out too. When I went out to our barns this morning I reflected on the experience of handling that our stock have, I really did. It feels a world away from what was on that programme thankfully but there are clearly yards where that stuff happens. I would hope that if any good comes out of that full length, researched programme is that more people are prepared to spend more on dairy produce to ensure that it is higher welfare. I hope that the impact isn't that people abandon UK dairy produce in favour of complex imported substitutes unless they really have to. To be honest the MT incident looks utterly trivial by comparison but that is not to say it is great to whack a horse with a branch!

 

[Spotherisk]

It shows up that individual clinics are maybe not a great learning situation. Rider books a clinic, a one off lesson with a famous name, and I guess the assumption is because they’re a great rider then they will be a great trainer, but it’s not always so. The trainer is under pressure to improve horse and rider in a brief time and the rider is under pressure because they don’t know the trainer and maybe it’s a new venue/new horse etc etc. Either way, the trainer is getting a one off fee and probably feels the need to show improvement, and the rider is expecting that. Think about your first lesson with any new trainer (maybe one that you’re hoping you will gel with and see regularly) and I expect it won’t be your best ever lesson - your second and third etc etc will be better. The one off clinic doesn't allow that.

Not trying to excuse Toddy - more saying think about what you’re trying to achieve and who is best to get you there.

 

[Upthecreek]

We couldn't watch all of it but it felt like a very different kind of attitude/abuse to that which has been discussed in this thread earlier. Casual, deliberate and appalling brutality doesn't even come close as a description. My OH is a farmers son and we have our own stock, we are familiar with handling large animals, we are familiar with death through various means including slaughter. Both of us were sickened at the treatment of those cows - it felt utterly alien to our experience and the knowledge we have of our neighbours and farming community. There was a total lack of connection, empathy or respect and that isn't something we commonly see or sense. You may be right about cheap, unengaged and uninvested labour @Upthecreek. I don't know. I would say we love and respect our stock, albeit knowing that they will go to slaughter (we have a few beef cattle - very low intensity, rather than dairy). Dairy cattle are such a committment and investment in time, money and infrastructure I am totally at a loss as to how and why that kind of appalling behaviour could be tolerated. Those poor, poor cows. It sickened me that no-one on those yards called it out too. When I went out to our barns this morning I reflected on the experience of handling that our stock have, I really did. It feels a world away from what was on that programme thankfully but there are clearly yards where that stuff happens. I would hope that if any good comes out of that full length, researched programme is that more people are prepared to spend more on dairy produce to ensure that it is higher welfare. I hope that the impact isn't that people abandon UK dairy produce in favour of complex imported substitutes unless they really have to. To be honest the MT incident looks utterly trivial by comparison but that is not to say it is great to whack a horse with a branch!

Generally this disregard and abuse of cows does seem to be quite common in high intensity farming where there is a need for round the clock, cheap labour. I don’t know what the answer is when milk is so cheap and quotas mean that hundreds of thousands of litres are wasted.

I agree, in terms of animal welfare the MT incident does look trivial in comparison. But I still find his behaviour disappointing and see a scared horse forced into accepting the situation it is in. So not so different to the cows.

 

[palo1]

Generally this disregard and abuse of cows does seem to be quite common in high intensity farming where there is a need for round the clock, cheap labour. I don’t know what the answer is when milk is so cheap and quotas mean that hundreds of thousands of litres are wasted.

I agree, in terms of animal welfare the MT incident does look trivial in comparison. But I still find his behaviour disappointing and see a scared horse forced into accepting the situation it is in. So not so different to the cows.

Yes, I don't think there was a useful training outcome for the horse and rider in the MT video. That didn't look like effective problem solving to me. The difference I would hope, with the cows, is that horse would be treated exceptionally well and with respect in just about every other scenario. No animal has a choice as to where it ends up though which is why it is vital that both leisure animals and animals kept for food production have both a legal framework and a culture of high welfare standards. Even leisure horses which are probably one of the highest status and potentially most likely to be well looked after animals don't have an absolutely clear framework for their welfare (hence much arguing about things like stabling, etc etc). I don't particularly want to see a nanny state but it seems vital to me that we ensure that welfare standards and practices are absolutely clear for keeping animals.

 

[ycbm]

I am sort of shocked that no-one has mentioned the Panorama programme screened last night about the Dairy industry - it is in a related vein in the way some people will treat animals. Perhaps there is a thread somewhere else? OH and I found it too horrific to watch. Literally not a single farmer we know would treat their stock the way some of those cows were treated. It was very disturbing.

It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though, was it, it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain.

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that, it's certainly the only one I've seen. The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away, imo. This kind of tabloid sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.

 

[tristar]

hears somewhere that milk is cheaper than bottled water

 

[Upthecreek]

It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though, was it, it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain.

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that, it's certainly the only one I've seen. The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away, imo. This kind of tabloid sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.

Sadly the smaller farms where the farmer knows each cow personally are dwindling rapidly. Most dairy farms local to me are massive commercial operations with dairy men that work round the clock to milk the cows three times a day. The cows live indoors all year round and are separated from their calves within hours of birth. It’s factory farming.

I’ve seen many news reports of cows being abused on farms and people being prosecuted for animal cruelty or neglect, so I don’t think it’s that unusual in the dairy industry unfortunately.

The point of the programme was to highlight the issue. You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.

 

[palo1]

It wasn't about "the dairy industry" though, was it, it was about one farm that was targeted by an animal rights activist for investigation precisely because he knew the shocking footage he could obtain.

It could be the only dairy farm in the UK that treats its cows like that, it's certainly the only one I've seen. The dairy farmers I've known have actually been a bit soppy about their cows

It was a very unbalanced programme and exactly why the licence fee needs taking away, imo. This kind of tabloid sensationalism shouldn't be being publicly financed by a tax, imo.
.

Yes I agree! The programme about that farm did not reflect any of my experience and I felt outraged by the content but also by the sensation that the programme caused which is not remotely balanced by putting forward any other content about dairy cows. I have had at least 2 of my neighbours say that they would be absolutely happy for a livestream of their cattle (though they are beef on the whole as dairy isn't really the thing just here) and farming to be used. Panorama has had it's share of issues about reporting; I can't see this helping tbh. Even so, the treatment of those cows was sickening.

 

[FestiveG]

[QUOTE="Upthecreek, post: 14845202, You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.[/QUOTE]
Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.

 

[palo1]

Sadly the smaller farms where the farmer knows each cow personally are dwindling rapidly. Most dairy farms local to me are massive commercial operations with dairy men that work round the clock to milk the cows three times a day. The cows live indoors all year round and are separated from their calves within hours of birth. It’s factory farming.

I’ve seen many news reports of cows being abused on farms and people being prosecuted for animal cruelty or neglect, so I don’t think it’s that unusual in the dairy industry unfortunately.

The point of the programme was to highlight the issue. You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.

This is not my experience at all of dairy (in these parts). Countryfile is a pile of rubbish so in my view provides no sense of balance whatsoever!! Consumers can help to change milk prices and the kind of farming that is viable, as can the shareholders of supermarkets etc.

 

[palo1]

[QUOTE="Upthecreek, post: 14845202, You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.

Hardly imo, most of the BBC programmes about the "countryside" have nothing to do with farming and a lot to do with countryside access. There does seem to be a very strange bias currently in the BBC, hence the continued use of Packham, alongside his very different treatment from other freelance specialists. It appears unhealthy and very anti farming currently.[/QUOTE]

YES. This!! Packham has been in the High Court (yesterday) in relation to lies, libel and zoo tigers..personally I hope he is revealed for what he really is. The BBC seems in thrall to a particular clique which is not what I pay my licence fee for and is not what is in the BBC constitution.

 

[ycbm]

You can watch Countryfile or any of the other ‘country’ programmes for balance.

Imo there's no justification for a tax that requires you to watch two programs to get balance and I'd also question whether the bucolic touchy feely tourist board production called Countryfile provides any sort of balance.
.

 

[Velcrobum]

Back to Mark Todd he has had his training licence suspended

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...-bha-with-video-investigations-ongoing/538376

 

[Upthecreek]

I agree that Countryfile is rubbish and was a bad example. I didn’t see the programme as sensationalist and I didn’t feel it was trying to say that treatment of cows there was representative of all dairy farms.