I’m not sure what to think….

[[153312]]

Well they do turn a blind eye. You really think members of the public immediately call out what they might see at BD/BS/BE, wider shows, warm ups, wider disciplines etc? While watching and having a coffee? I'm not so sure.

It's all too easy to outraged and disgsuted when it's in your social media timeline/behind a screen...

without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.

 

[Mule]

L

without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.

Like Kurt Zouma recently

 

[Hepsibah]

Well they do turn a blind eye. You really think members of the public immediately call out what they might see at BD/BS/BE, wider shows, warm ups, wider disciplines etc? While watching and having a coffee? I'm not so sure.

It's all too easy to outraged and disgsuted when it's in your social media timeline/behind a screen...

I disagree, it isn't too easy. It is exactly easy enough. People on the inside allow the problem to perpetuate because they're inside it. It's just the way things are. It is only when someone calls it out and says "OMG have you seen this?" I mean, look at the video again. There's a well known, well respected member of the equestrian elite whipping a horse again and again and again. Of course people are going to think it's outrageous and disgusting. It is.

 

[teapot]

without social media there would not be consequences for an awful lot of offences surrounding hurting animals, though. On the whole I think social media has probably helped animal welfare.

Only if that social media content gets picked up by regulatory bodies. Then you get the situation with the hunting teacher for example.

I disagree, it isn't too easy. It is exactly easy enough. People on the inside allow the problem to perpetuate because they're inside it. It's just the way things are. It is only when someone calls it out and says "OMG have you seen this?" I mean, look at the video again. There's a well known, well respected member of the equestrian elite whipping a horse again and again and again. Of course people are going to think it's outrageous and disgusting. It is.

I'm not saying it isn't but posting all over his facebook page won't make ANY difference. If people really wanted change they'd be contacting the BHA about the standard shown by someone holding a trainer's licence...

 

[TPO]

You can use a stick/whip, spurs, bits, nosebands etc without being cruel or abusive.

IMO you're far more likely to find an "everyday" rider causing pain with those items than a professional who has an independent seat and hands along with a secure leg position.

I firmly believe that it is possible to produce and compete horses at/to the highest levels without having to abuse them. There is a lot of scope between sugar cubes and bearing the $#!¥ out an animal.

 

[Hepsibah]

I like to think that there are people out there right now who will moderate their behaviour because they don't want to be caught on camera.

 

[TPO]

I like to think that there are people out there right now who will moderate their behaviour because they don't want to be caught on camera.

Thats always happened.

Even pre camera phones and social media *things* happened in private that was never replicated when the public was around or in a public place, like a competition. Of course there have always been those that temper has gotten thr better off and they have done thing publicly

 

[AFB]

The ‘worse things happen’ argument really riles me, similar to the ‘all lives matter’ argument. We all know that, but stating it is dismissive of the subject in hand.

Have to say I’m genuinely saddened to lose the respect for someone I’ve enjoyed following for 20+ years, but the wider issue of animal abuse doesn’t detract from what has happened here.

 

[Mule]

If you are kicking your horse's ribs like a demented thing because you are 'too kind to use a whip', you are doing it more wrong.

Yep, I absolutely hate the pony club kicking. A tip with a crop is far more humane imo.

 

[ycbm]

You hit an animal with a stick, you’re abusing them.

It doesn’t get much simpler than that really ??‍

I'm sorry AM, but i don't think it's that simple. I can think of many situations hacking, eventing, hunting, schooling when it would not be safe for the rider or the horse if you weren't able to give a horse a sharp smack.
.

 

[meleeka]

Well, of course he is. It would be nice if the outraged commenters turned their outrage in the direction of real abusers.

It is real abuse. I think it’s probably very common amongst professional riders, but that doesn’t make it ok.

I can’t quite understand why anyone would stand directly behind a horse and whip if. That’s just stupid.

 

[Mule]

I'm sorry AM, but i don't think it's that simple. I can think of many situations hacking, eventing, hunting, schooling when it would not be safe for the rider or the horse if you weren't able to give a horse a sharp smack.
.

The feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.

 

[teapot]

The feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.

My immediate though of when it can be needed was out hacking/on roads...

 

[TPO]

There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event

 

[Mule]

There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event

Yes, that's it. One is an aid, the other is frustration.

 

[ycbm]

The feeling of a horse winding down before a jump on xc is a horrible feeling. Very dangerous and an example where using a whip has got me and my horse out of trouble.

My immediate though of when it can be needed was out hacking/on roads...

I originally wrote some examples, one the cross country one and one a blind bend out hacking with a car approaching fast behind you, but decided my post was too long.

Another I experienced was a horse backing rapidly across an unfenced arena and in danger of falling down a bank. I've had excited horses do the same out hunting towards barbed wire, other horses, or a ditch.

I do understand the "training to accept the whip as an aid" argument, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect every horse in every situation, no matter how well trained, to respond in the necessary timescales to a whip aid which is less than a sharp crack on the backside.

 

[Mule]

I originally wrote some examples, one the cross country one and one a blind bend out hacking with a car approaching fast behind you, but decided my post was too long.

Another I experienced was a horse backing rapidly across an unfenced arena and in danger of falling down a bank. I've had excited horses do the same out hunting.

I do understand the "training to accept the whip as an aid" argument, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect every horse in every situation, no matter how well trained., to respond in the necessary timescales to a whip aid which is less than a sharp crack on the backside.

Yes, safety has to trump everything.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, safety has to trump everything.

Well, if it doesn't then I think we will need to give up riding in the activities we do now. I think that day is coming at some point in the future.
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[chocolategirl]

I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong, I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .

Yes, but unfortunately he’s a role model to so many, so this is a huge fall from grace, and sets a terrible example to those who have long admired him. I think that’s why there’s been such a big reaction, but that,s my opinion?

 

[Gloi]

The largest number of horses coming into my friend's yard for retraining are coloured cobs who have become dangerous because they have learnt there are no consequences to saying "I don't want to / you can't make me" ?

 

[Mule]

Well, if it doesn't then I think we will need to give up riding in the activities we do now. I think that day is coming at some point in the future.
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I'm not sure. Horse racing is very popular among the general public, despite whip use and horse fatalities.

 

[TPO]

I've got a cheek because I love a ramble and veering off on a tangent but how have we moved on from MT flogging a horse to anyone carrying a stick is cruel or that what MT did is comparable to "needing"* to crack a horse for safety reasons

*I'd argue that any horse "needing" a smack in whatever situation wasn't properly trained and that there were massive holes in its/the riders education

 

[Bellaboo18]

If we're going to ride horses, I think most people would agree there's moments where safety comes first. Dropping off the bridle a stride or two out, spooking into on coming traffic, mowing you over when bringing in etc. In those or similar situations I've got no problem with a quick tap but i hate to see someone losing their temper or in this case just using completely lazy training techniques. It's not setting a horse up to succeed for the future.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not sure. Horse racing is very popular among the general public, despite whip use and horse fatalities.

I think it may be 50 or 100 years but I'm reasonably sure racing in its current form will one day be widely considered unacceptable, but I also think it will be followed at some time by riding live animals at all.
.

 

[ycbm]

*I'd argue that any horse "needing" a smack in whatever situation wasn't properly trained and that there were massive holes in its/the riders education

I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Seems there is an apology now up.

Ref sticks, I haven't ridden with a std one since mid 2016 when I got myself a fab project who was a little more than whip shy....

I do occasionally carry my hunting whip out hacking to fend off rude dogs tho....

 

[TPO]

I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
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I'd counter that with horses trained by Buck Brannaman or Mark Rashid

We expect and accept very little from horses and what we train but this is going even further away from OT and should be it's own thread (although it's been it's own thread multiple times before)

 

[MotherOfChickens]

*managed to f up quote*

I think that in 50-100 years we’ll either be using them as transport or not keeping them at all.

 

[Mule]

I think it may be 50 or 100 years but I'm reasonably sure racing in its current form will one day be widely considered unacceptable, but I also think it will be followed at some time by riding live animals at all.
.

They have banned the whip in racing in one (or more) of the Scandinavian countries. I don't know if they allow jockeys to use it for steering.
I think it would be best for racing and other disciplines to take the initiative in these things rather than wait until public opinion turns against it.

Similar to hunts that haven't stuck to trail hunting. It would have been better for them to have embraced it rather than try to get around the law and possible put legal hunting in jeopardy.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I'd counter by suggesting that as long as horses have independent brains in their heads that no amount of perfect training will ensure that they react exactly according to their training in every possible situation that they might encounter.
.

And, to me, the horse could behave perfectly but if a car comes round the bend quickly and you need to send a quick message to say get over there, a smack might be the best option.