I’m not sure what to think….

[Red-1]

That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).

It is kind of set down officially too though. A long time since I was eventing (2014) but I imagine the rule is still a maximum of 3 hits per fence? From memory, it was up to 3 hits, not at the majority of fences, and no marks to be left. Oh, and it would have to be with a whip as opposed to a branch off a tree. These days, I believe it also has to be a padded whip, of a certain length.

In no case would hitting from the ground be acceptable, whilst a rider was on board.

I also wouldn't slate the rider for her riding. Yes, she was sitting a little passenger-like. However, she was there to learn. The horse and rider were going sweetly enough together. The horse wasn't confident. With the combined level of skill and confidence, it would have taken a while to be confident, as in, not just the one session. They could have built the confidence together. They may well always have been hesitant, until both the horse and the rider became committed to go. They may never have got into new water down a step, but that would have been their learning path. Walloping the horse with a branch is not a satisfactory answer. I also don't think it would help accelerate the learning process as I don't think it would make the horse more confident to approach water the next time, wouldn't have made the rider more effective and he can't always be there.

It disturbed me that the rider, although now slating Mark Todd (as he has now admitted it is him), saw fit at the time to set the video to music, put some funny comment on and upload it to her channel. Although she now says it was awful of him (or words to that effect) it seems, on the face of it, that she thought it was light hearted. Or maybe that is a generational thing.

 

[ycbm]

I've had a couple. They were fun!

My first was Ian Stark, first time XC a new horse, my first eventer. This was 22 years ago. He was FAB, had a presence, I had faith, we did great!

The other was Lucinda Green, an indoor XC one. She was also FAB. Did really technical stuff, the like I wouldn't have said we could do. She also had presence.

I don't know about you, but I do my horses for fun, and both clinics were fun. They were also people who were, to me, famous, and it meant I could see them in a non creepy atmosphere. I had faith in their knowledge. They were both very organised: we were grouped in suitable bands of knowledge; we did a get to know you chat; we did a directed warmup; were assessed jumping; made progress; achieved things I wasn't expecting.

I also have private lessons with successful people sometimes, as well as people who others wouldn't know. At no time would I expect someone on the ground to beat my horse.

And if you want to be entertained, as well as learn, you absolutely couldn't beat lessons with Geoff Billington. He missed his vocation as a stand up comedian ?

 

[luckyoldme]

What a horrible video and Evan more shocking that he came out with his stupid statement.
He apologises to the horse? Did he actually find the horse he abused two years ago and say sorry to it? What was the horse's reply?
What a complete and utter twat and what a shame that he is treat with any sort of respect at all .

 

[Red-1]

And if you want to be entertained, as well as learn, you absolutely can't beat lessons with Geoff Billington. His missed his vocation as a stand up comedian ?

I have done! But that was SJ.

Again, we were thoroughly organised, he had a load of help for us, I ended up jumping round a course of fences at 4', on a ID 4yo, who had not done THAT before!

he did it by simply getting us to ride forwards, with a suitably curvy course, and a placing pole before every fence, at around 21ft.

Horses and riders became forward, used hocks, saw strides and sailed over.

And yes, he was VERY entertaining. It was huuuuuge fun.

ETA- And no, I don't think that the 1 hour lesson and few fences that were put uuuuuuuup at the end did the horse any harm at all. And no, we put them back to 2'9 in our own training sessions afterwards!

 

[Sandstone1]

I'm neither. Look, don't get me wrong, I am utterly opposed to abuse of any animal and I have spent a considerable part of my life working with neglected and traumatised horses, dogs and other animals. But getting all aerated about this type of rough justice is misplaced when there is so much outright nastiness out there, often unrealised or unacknowledged. One of the many reasons I left the professional training world is because I wasn't prepared to do the things many considered necessary to get horses to the top. I have NEVER resorted to whaling the a*se off a horse to get to do something, but the idea that horses are trained to high levels with nothing but sugar lumps is naive .

T

Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.

But thats the whole point is it not? Things need to change and they will.
How is chasing a horse in to water teaching it any thing?
It is just showing it to be more afraid of the man behind with the stick than the water,
It should be taught not to be afraid of the water in the first place.
Yes Mark Todd has had huge success in eventing but at what cost to his horses?
Just because things have always been done a certain way does not mean it does not have to change.
We should evolve in our way of treating animals and if that means in time to come we do not ride then so be it.
Before anyone asks yes I do ride but I like to think I am a sympathetic rider.
Have I ever used a whip? Yes I have in younger days before I knew better but was never comfortable doing so. Times change and you are always going to get people who say but what about this and what about that but things will slowly change as more abuse comes to light to the general public and because of the use of mobile phones and social media that change is going to get faster.

 

[minesadouble]

The stand out issue for me is that if the rider disagreed with his actions so strongly why did she sit there and let it happen?? In this instance she was complicit so if abuse took place (debatable) the rider is just as guilty as MT.
I hate this world we live in where people never open their mouths to voice an opinion unless it's on social media.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The rider was probably over awed by being coached by one of eventing's most famous former competitors.

He was also behind her as he whacked the horse, she might well not have known quite what he was doing with that branch.

I have and do call out whip abuse as and when it happens, inc when FJing at BE.

I do usually carry a schooling whip, but it's only there for back up to my leg aid in a sticky situation, it's not there to beat a horse. I hardly ever use it.

I'm so very disappointed that one of my heroes could display such poor skills. I was there in the stands at Burghley 2019 when he officially retired, with a tear in my eye. I feel done over now.

 

[Red-1]

The stand out issue for me is that if the rider disagreed with his actions so strongly why did she sit there and let it happen?? In this instance she was complicit so if abuse took place (debatable) the rider is just as guilty as MT.
I hate this world we live in where people never open their mouths to voice an opinion unless it's on social media.

I saw an Olympic event rider beating a horse unmercifully, when I had taken my own horse for a lesson at a venue. It was 2012, just before the London Games.

I was riding my own horse, my lesson had just finished, my trainer left the arena and I was walking mine off to cool down. The other, visiting, rider came into the area, the horse initially looked to be working well, but then did something to displease the rider. The rider beat it with a whip, including round the head, then got off and toecapped it in the tummy, beat it from the ground, got back on, did some more, got off AGAIN to kick it...

I was aghast!

BUT - it was a big man with a whip, in a foul temper. My own horse was shaking and wanting to spin in fear. I had my hands full. I *could* still have shouted out, but I don't think he would have stopped.

If I had had a phone, I would have filmed him, but I was cooling down from a lesson and my phone was in the box. The big, violent, foul man was also nearer the gate than me. When I could, I simply left, took my horse with me, went on a hack as I simply wanted to get away from the violence.

When I eventually got home I rang my trainer, whose place it was, and reported what I had seen. They said they didn't mind if I reported them, but they hadn't seen it, as they had left already. Some credit to them as he wouldn't have done it in front of them.

So, we have an Olympian, who would doubtless say I (low level competitor) was being silly and hysterical, and no evidence. If I had reported to the FEI, he *should* have been banned, but would not have been on a 1-1 complaint, with me being lower level, ranking, experience etc.

Backlash.

Yes, I would have feared backlash.

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

The worst bit?

2 worst bits actually.

The man is successful.

The man advertised he was setting up his own yard after this, and was promoting his sympathetic training methods.

Who is he?

I still fear backlash and won't say. Other that it wasn't a team GB rider.

Had he threatened violence on my own horse, I would simply have walked away. But I am older than this rider who uploaded the clip.

I hasten to add that what Mark Todd did was less than 1% of what the other rider did. I don't think he had completely lost it. I also don't think he would threaten the rider.

I am not proud that I didn't yell out, try to stop the big man, but I also forgive myself. I kept my own horse safe, and that is what I felt I could do.

Although I don't agree with what MT did, it is not on the scale of what I have seen from others, such as the man above.

 

[VRIN]

The rider was probably over awed by being coached by one of eventing's most famous former competitors.

He was also behind her as he whacked the horse, she might well not have known quite what he was doing with that branch.
.

If what the previous poster was saying that she had set the video to music and added a funny comment is true then being 'overawed' and not being aware of what was going on behind her doesn't fit with her later actions. if she was appalled by his actions then why did she post on her page with a 'positive' slant?
Sometimes we forget that we have a responsibility for our own actions too.

 

[Patterdale]

I can’t stand this current trend of trial by social media. I doubt very much that any of us have led a completely blame free life.

It all feels very wrong to me when these things blow up. NO ONE in this world, not even you, makes fabulous decisions and judgements 100% of the time. It’s part of being human.

If the person filming had a problem they should have addressed it at the time or through the proper channels. This whole thing just stinks to me. And yes, I feel very sorry for MT and I’m not ashamed of that.

 

[TPO]

Also a bit sick of the "we have to be careful because we might be filmed" narrative too. Surely it shouldn't take the threat of being filmed to stop people beating up their horses?

Then, as seen on fb in response to a post a out this incident, you get the excuses that it was taken out of context. On fb someone rightly pointed out that in no context is what happened ok. I don't know if the tik tok video is shorter but the video that @Red-1 posted shows the build up to the attack.

I've never trained a horse to Olympic standard, heck I've never even done a BE but even a numpty like me has a tool box full of differing techniques to get a horse going through water without having to resort to "making forward/the that least scary and least painful option". A horse trained on fear isn't going to be there when you need them to.

The "victim blaming" is sneaking in too. As red explained more eloquently than I'll manage its hard, especially as a young non-olympian, to stand up to professionals in a clinic situation. If "big names" aren't capable of training people in groups at different levels then perhaps they should stop selling their services to do just that. Can hardly blame a customer for buying a service offered to them. Based on numerous reports on here many people come away with lots of positives after a clinic with a "big name".

The knots some people will tie themselves into in an attempt to excuse, quite frankly, the inexcusable is concerning and saddening.

 

[Patterdale]

I later found out he had threatened to injure the (temporary) farrier, as a threat just in case he lamed the horse before the Olympics. The farrier was also older, and simply packed up and went home!

‘lame this horse before the Olympic and I’ll knock your head off’ sort of thing?

 

[eahotson]

You’d think being as good as he was he would have a better method for getting a less keen horse into water.

shameful. I read the comments and as a “horsey person” I’m embarrassed to be honest.

i am lucky in that I’ve never trained with anyone that’s made me have to be an advocate for my horse. I would have told sir mark to eff off that day I think.

I would hope that I would have the courage to challenge stuff like that too but it is difficult when it is someone like Mark Todd. I used to hero worship a lot of successful equestrian riders when young. I no longer do so.

 

[eahotson]

I just looked on Youtube and searched Mark Todd beating horse and it came right up. Not that I am saying it is him, but that is what I searched.

It came up in a news feed of mine but is easily found.

 

[Patterdale]

TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.

 

[eahotson]

I don't like this video at all. Apart from anything else, the horse was going sweetly enough into the water (although I presume it had been hesitant before) when suddenly the person runs up behind it and hits it, when it was going straight in anyway (early part of the video I saw). I actually thought, "well that horse won't want to go near the water next time."

It all just seemed ineffectual and unnecessary, harmful in that the horse would feel less and less confident to approach the water's edge/hit zone, until the poor horse did stop, then the hitting escalated into abuse. I too would have been leaving the lesson, and I know I would because I have had to brace up a XC trainer before, that I won't clobber the horse and would rather wait it out and use actual timing and finesse.

I have little finesse, so it took a fair old amount of time, but once in, the horse was confidently in, as he had actually made a decision to go in, as opposed to be running away from something even more scary. Loading is the same, people hit the horses to force them on, whereas I would spend longer on getting the horse responsive and then setting them up to be able to thoughtfully make a decision. Then the decision sticks and transfers to other situations.

I suspect the trainer was expected to 'make progress' during a lesson that would not be cheap, so used this method. Sadly, it shows something about the man that he was also happy to have it filmed, so seems confident that it is not abuse. I disagree.

I did used to use more force than I am now comfortable with, but many years ago I decided that I would rather not progress then to do it like that.

I wonder if he will put a statement out?

I gather he has apologized.

 

[eahotson]

This is why I commented as I did on the hunt rider pony kick thread. We can shout burn the witch or we can be honest that this level of unethical stuff is horrendously common in the horse world and horse sport. It is my absolute joy that I do not have to keep my horses on livery yards anymore and don't have to see it, and know the trainers and pros locally to steer clear of.

But we prefer to pretend that it is rare and seem to find it impossible to have a rational conversation about the things that contribute to it. The most frequent, persistent and pervasive abuse I have witnessed has been as a result of people trying to get their horses to move and respond like big sharp warmbloods because that (rather than good training) is seen as the key to dressage success. But say that in most horsey circles (incl on here) and you are dismissed as jealous, uninformed etc etc. And this is only the same thing - horse not naturally inclined to do a thing necessary for a particular sport gets the pressure ramped up and ramped up until it's tipped over into nothing short of physical abuse.

Wish there was a love button.

 

[eahotson]

Peta are very extreme. They don't want any livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to eat less meat and pay farmers more for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free. A smaller supply of meat would get farmers better prices. And cut down on intensive farming.

Love.

 

[TPO]

TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

It’s just that in todays world, everyone is held up to impossible standards of 100% patience and perfection at all times. It’s not realistic, you know it’s not.
Being a good person 99% of the time is pretty good going, and more than many people achieve.

I find this social media piety disgusting tbh.

There's a vast difference between getting annoyed or frustrated and beating up and/or inflicting pain on an animal.

I've managed to get annoyed and walk away. I've managed to suitably reprimand animals without terrorising them or inflicting pain. I've managed to train horses without ever using a whip, forcing them or beating them into submission.

If an idiot like me can manage it I'm not sure why anyone else can't...or more likely, won't.

But thanks for making it easier to know who to avoid posts from on here. Good luck with the gymnastics

 

[Patterdale]

Thanks. Good luck with the puritanical piety. Hope it never bites back.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I really hope its not him but I think it probably is.

He's apologised for doing it so it is him.
I dread to think what he does when there are no cameras.

 

[Sossigpoker]

This is why I commented as I did on the hunt rider pony kick thread. We can shout burn the witch or we can be honest that this level of unethical stuff is horrendously common in the horse world and horse sport. It is my absolute joy that I do not have to keep my horses on livery yards anymore and don't have to see it, and know the trainers and pros locally to steer clear of.

But we prefer to pretend that it is rare and seem to find it impossible to have a rational conversation about the things that contribute to it. The most frequent, persistent and pervasive abuse I have witnessed has been as a result of people trying to get their horses to move and respond like big sharp warmbloods because that (rather than good training) is seen as the key to dressage success. But say that in most horsey circles (incl on here) and you are dismissed as jealous, uninformed etc etc. And this is only the same thing - horse not naturally inclined to do a thing necessary for a particular sport gets the pressure ramped up and ramped up until it's tipped over into nothing short of physical abuse.

I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.

 

[Sossigpoker]

That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).

Doesn't matter if it's a whip or a twig , violence is violence
If the rider was being hopeless, he should have got on the horse himself and shown how it's done.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.

I hope you said something.......?

 

[stangs]

TPO NOBODY who works with animals
ay in day out for decades can hand on heart say they have never ever lost their temper or got annoyed. No one that I have ever met or heard of in a lifetime of working in the industry. No one. Not one.

If you lose your temper, you remove yourself from the situation. It's that simple. Dismount, step away, whatever. Take some deep breaths, punch a wall if you really must. But leave the horse be. Honestly, half the time, I find things work easier after both you and the horse have had that time to process as well.

I think the fact that you're saying losing your temper = hitting an animal just goes to show how poorly people are taught to regulate their emotions, or deal with their anger, growing up. Alternatively, it could be the doing of the "don't let the horse win" attitude that means people think they must keep battling even when both you and the horse are way past threshold, and no one's actually learning anything.

 

[DabDab]

I don't blame the rider, I doubt she knew he was going to do that to horse, and it happened a bit fast for her to reasonably react. If someone acquired a branch to loiter with while I rode into an obstacle then I would have been out of there pdq, but I wouldn't when I was younger

But this is where these discussions get frustrating because people insist in talking in black and white and seem to refuse to acknowledge that this sort of stuff doesn't come out of nowhere in a vacuum. I shouldn't think MT woke up that day and thought 'hey, I think I'll go thwack a stick over some client's horse's backside today'. There is a wider culture, a common training methodology, and a history of success for this man in particular (is this kind of dodgy method part of the success? Who knows?).

Have I seen excess/unkind/unfair pressure applied through training? Yes, many many times.
Did I call it out? Mostly no if I'm honest, unless it concerned my own horse, but even then not always yes.
Have I applied excess/unkind/unfair pressure through training? Yes. But I did always recognise it (not that that's an excuse really), and I'm not sure that many people do, they might, I don't know, people can style it out well when inside they are a bit ashamed.

I have absolutely never walloped a horse 10 times to get it into water or anything similar, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't question what I do, what I see others do, what training and results from training I passively accept. Condemn people in videos like this that appear on line absolutely, but if we questioned more in general horse industry & horse sport then we would do an awful lot more to help the situation.

 

[TPO]

 

[eahotson]

I just witnessed the groom at my yard beating a youngster less than year old around the face with a lead rope because it was "ignorant ". I so want to find my own place so I don't have to witness this shit any more.

I am on a livery yard.It has its little ups and downs but there is one thing I can say.I have never seen staff/liveries abuse their horses.I heard that one member of staff did so many years ago.Was caught by yard owner and sacked on the spot.

 

[Rowreach]

I wonder what happened to make Chloe do this now?

Could she not get a space on his next clinic?

 

[eahotson]

I am on a livery yard.It has its little ups and downs but there is one thing I can say.I have never seen staff/liveries abuse their horses.I heard that one member of staff did so many years ago.Was caught by yard owner and sacked on the spot.

Meant to say. Its one of the reasons I stick with it.

 

[ester]

The 'why didn't the rider call it out at the time' comments smacks of some of the george morris situation to me.

To me it's pretty obvious why people don't call out all manner of things at the time. (see also the poster on here re. Lucinda Green's language)

Also it's possible to have a new opinion on your own actions in a situation with the passage of time.