I’m not sure what to think….

[scats]

Tapping a horse once with a whip to move it quickly out of a dangerous situation is one thing, smacking it repeatedly over and over, in frustration, because it won’t jump into some water on a cross country course, is entirely different. I’m not sure that comparing them is particularly useful, though I do recognise that we are on rocky ground with regards riding horses anyway, particularly when whips are involved.

 

[Bellaboo18]

They have banned the whip in racing in one (or more) of the Scandinavian countries. I don't know if they allow jockeys to use it for steering.
I think it would be best for racing and other disciplines to take the initiative in these things rather than wait until public opinion turns against it.

Similar to hunts that haven't stuck to trail hunting. It would have been better for them to have embraced it rather than try to get around the law and put even legal hunting in jeopardy.

I think the whip will be banned in racing in the next few years. I was on a focus group for the BHA last year, it was discussed and everyone voted in favour of using the whip for safety only.

 

[Mule]

I think the whip will be banned in racing in the next few years. I was on a focus group for the BHA last year, it was discussed and everyone voted in favour of using the whip for safety only.

It makes sense to me. There's no need for it really. It will just become more and more controversial having it.

 

[Shilasdair]

PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.

And if you don't carry a nice dressage whip with a flappy leather bit on the end - how do you kill the clegs for your horse whilst hacking?

(I remember the old ladies at the bowling club next to my horses' field asking why my horses would suddenly rush over to me while I was poo-picking, and why I 'slapped them' (cleg killing!). They also asked why I blindfolded them (fly masks).

 

[Mule]

PETA want riding to be banned - so this is the first step on a road to 'cruelty free' horse keeping - where you don't ride them.

And if you don't carry a nice dressage whip with a flappy leather bit on the end - how do you kill the clegs for your horse whilst hacking?

(I remember the old ladies at the bowling club next to my horses' field asking why my horses would suddenly rush over to me while I was poo-picking, and why I 'slapped them' (cleg killing!). They also asked why I blindfolded them (fly masks).

Peta are very extreme. They don't want any livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to eat less meat and pay farmers more for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free. A smaller supply of meat would get farmers better prices. And cut down on intensive farming.

 

[DabDab]

There's a difference between using a stick as an aid (that the horse has previosuly been taught how to respond to) and a stick to beat a horse

There was plenty said on here about a particular pro eventer using his stick *a lot* to get tired horses home at a televised event

? Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.

 

[Lammy]

I am not naive and am aware that terrible training methods happen at the top of every sport. I don’t think there’s room for it and the sport needs to move into the 21st century. I’m certainly not saying there isn’t need for firm riding or that a whip isn’t sometimes required for safety, but there certainly isn’t a need for outdated training practices and the governing bodies have to come down harder on the perpetrators. For that to happen videos like this need to come out on social media, though I hope one day we can trust those in power enough to send concerns in directly, knowing they will be dealt with.

MT, for me, overstepped the fine line between “just bad training” and abuse. He knew what he was doing was wrong, did it anyway, out of frustration.

I could feel my frustration building with my horse in the school the other day, guess what I did? Stopped and took the horse back to the yard, gave my head a wobble, gave them a pat and came back with a better attitude the next day. If my neurodivergent arse can do that, MT certainly can.

 

[EMSPony]

? Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.

But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course. What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water. Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training. At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.

 

[Hepsibah]

Peta are very extreme. They don't want any livestock to exist either. I can't imagine the countryside without sheep and cows. Better to est less meat and pay farmers a decent amount for what they produce than expecting the world to go meat free.

PETA are a bunch of lunatics.

 

[Mule]

PETA are a bunch of lunatics.

Yes, I didn't know how extreme they were until recently.

 

[DabDab]

But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course. What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water. Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training. At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.

Yeah, that wasn't my point.

 

[Bay.chestnut.coloure]

This is awful.. and after reading the comments on TikTok and Facebook it seems he’s done it to loads and loads of people for years!! And if that’s how he teaches just hate to think what he does at home. Not to mention his most recent post on his own Facebook page was about breaking in yearlings fo race!! Used to have so much admiration for MT but totally lost all respect for him

 

[Gloi]

*managed to f up quote*

I think that in 50-100 years we’ll either be using them as transport or not keeping them at all.

And fighting over who gets to eat them.

 

[Cortez]

But that's not going to be much use to the rider unless she employs people to wave branches at her horse while she does a cross country course. What the horse has more likely learned is to avoid water as bad things happen near water. Not only was it abuse, it can't even pretend to be effective training. At least he's not trying to defend it in any way, shape or form in his apology.

Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.

 

[Charley657]

I have just seen it on Instagram and I'm disgusted. I hope people boycott his products and hit him where it hurts. There are ways to get a horse to do something but that is the WRONG way and the horse learnt nothing but fear and pain from that experience.

 

[TPO]

? Just because a horse has learnt/been taught to give a response to a whip as an aid doesn't mean that learning happened in a non-abusive way. Pretty sure the horse in that video will be inclined to forwardness in the future if another branch is waved behind it...for example.

Agreed but I wasn't counting beating/hurting/scaring/traumatising as ways of teaching a horse how to respond to a whip/any aid

 

[EMSPony]

Um, hasn't Mark Todd won like most of the top things in eventing? I'd say that was because of "effective training", and I'd also say he probably knows a thing or two about how to get horses to jump into water, quite possibly more than I and most of us on here do. Of course he's apologising; he'll be eaten alive if he doesn't. Sorry not sorry.

And unfortunately breaking yearlings (actually rising two, but still awful) for racing is what they do in that game.

I didn't say he wasn't an effective trainer. I said that this was not an example of effective training. And irrespective of whether it was effective or not (ie how willingly the horse jumped into water after the session) it was not appropriate training. To my mind at least it simply can't be justified, no matter the talk on here of other instances when people have justified their use of the whip in terms of safety/emergencies etc. None of that descibes what happened in this particular situation.

 

[Bay.chestnut.coloure]

I also think there is a huge difference between giving a horse a smack with a stick when they’re being naughty/ cheeky or MAYBE sometimes stop them refusing, but smacking an unsure horse repeatedly 10 times to force them is totally different… in that video the horse looked like he was jumping into the water fine before, it was only at the bigger height that he wasn’t confident, he barely even gave the horse a chance to look at it, he wasn’t misbehaving he just was unsure, which is only natural…

 

[Lois Lame]

I'm equally confused (and upset / angered) by him and the person sitting on the horse, who sat there and let him. If someone had done that to a horse of mine, I would have dismounted into the water if necessary, left the horse standing there and punched the trainer, even if he was a "Sir".

You might have then been up for assault.

 

[Cortez]

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?

 

[Lois Lame]

It's disappointing to see this of Mark Todd.

 

[Hepsibah]

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?

You keep asking these questions. At what point does it become unacceptable enough for you to think it's excessive/abusive?

 

[meleeka]

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?

A smack with the whip would not have been abuse imo. Hitting it 10 times so hard that you can hear the branch connecting most definitely is abuse. That’s not training, or reminding the horse to listen to its rider, it’s a beating. It’s inflicting pain which a tap with the whip wouldn’t do.

 

[Bay.chestnut.coloure]

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?

Hypothetical question: if the rider had given the horse a couple of smacks with the whip when it slowed and stopped at the water would that have been abuse?

really does depend how she does it… I wouldn’t think smacking a horse repeatedly 10 times that hard is acceptable but if she gave him a smack to encourage him forward that’s different… and there is definitely a difference… one is used for encouragement one is used for punishment, too often ar shows I’ve seen horses refuses and their riders just beat the cr*p out of them out of nothing but anger, then come again, it doesn’t often seem to work…so it really depends and I definitely think there’s a huge difference between using it as encouragement and using it as anger/ punishment

 

[Cortez]

You keep asking these questions. At what point does it become unacceptable enough for you to think it's excessive/abusive?

That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.

A smack with the whip would not have been abuse imo. Hitting it 10 times so hard that you can hear the branch connecting most definitely is abuse. That’s not training, or reminding the horse to listen to its rider.

It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).

 

[meleeka]

It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).[/QUOTE]

I agree, it’s the aggression. Going back to the woman kicking the horse the other week, I doubt it particularly hurt the horse, certainly less than the horse in this video, but it’s the aggression and intimidation that makes it abuse in both cases. I also think it was more than a twig and the fact that you can hear it connect but it didn’t snap probably means it did hurt the horse.

 

[Bay.chestnut.coloure]

That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).

Still looked and sounded like some force, either way it’s using aggression to force the horse to do something their scared of, just don’t agree with this way of training at all, and like you say it’s not an excuse to lose temper with the rider… the rider is novice and coming to him for lessons, that’s the whole point of getting lessons is they will usually be less experienced than you and are looking for your advice , if he’s not patient enough then maybe teaching isn’t for him… I’ve seen some pretty horrific abuse happening too but I don’t think it takes away from other “less” bad things that happen, I wouldn’t call this abuse personally but just poor horsemanship… and I know I’m no Olympic trainer but it’s just not worth it to me if that’s what I have to do, these horses don’t owe us anything we decide to buy/ breed them and decide to ride them and most of the time they try their absolute heart out to do what we ask …maybe I’m soft but that’s just me, this just couldn’t be me

 

[cauda equina]

That's a bit of a "I know it when I see it" question, and as has been demonstrated on this thread that varies for every person. I have witnessed some truly awful things done to horses (and other animals), and left jobs because of them. Some of the most abusive things I've seen have been caused by ignorance.



It's a twig for goodness sake, probably less robust than any riding whip. I fail to see your logic here though: whip OK; twig bad. Losing one's temper with a horse is never an acceptable thing, although in this instance I feel it's more with the rider (not an excuse).

I've often wondered what's the point (from a training point of view) of Celebrity Clinics for low-level amateur riders
Of course the riders get bragging rights about having been 'trained' by this or that Olympian, and for the Olympian it's an extra income stream but trying to teach anything useful to a bunch of 6 strangers whose level is way below yours must be a pretty frustrating business

 

[Red-1]

I've often wondered what's the point (from a training point of view) of Celebrity Clinics for low-level amateur riders
Of course the riders get bragging rights about having been 'trained' by this or that Olympian, and for the Olympian it's an extra income stream but trying to teach anything useful to a bunch of 6 strangers whose level is way below yours must be a pretty frustrating business

I've had a couple. They were fun!

My first was Ian Stark, first time XC a new horse, my first eventer. This was 22 years ago. He was FAB, had a presence, I had faith, we did great!

The other was Lucinda Green, an indoor XC one. She was also FAB. Did really technical stuff, the like I wouldn't have said we could do. She also had presence.

I don't know about you, but I do my horses for fun, and both clinics were fun. They were also people who were, to me, famous, and it meant I could see them in a non creepy atmosphere. I had faith in their knowledge. They were both very organised: we were grouped in suitable bands of knowledge; we did a get to know you chat; we did a directed warmup; were assessed jumping; made progress; achieved things I wasn't expecting.

I also have private lessons with successful people sometimes, as well as people who others wouldn't know. At no time would I expect someone on the ground to beat my horse.

 

[luckyoldme]

Can I ask what you mean by, ‘I know it’s the DM’ but……………..

Standard forum language for I would never ever buy or subscribe to the daily mail, however I stumbled across this article by accident and thought you might be interested.