I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting

[palo1]

That is frustrating! Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!! On the other hand, the presence of monitors and antis can seriously derail people's plans and intentions. I understand why people feel it may be needed to have hunt monitors/hunt 'safety' officers but a lot of hunting people feel genuinely intimidated by even the most benign hunt monitor as there is so much 'feed' about threatening behaviour - especially when accompanied by people with covered faces. Sadly, some of the antis that come into direct contact with hunts really don't do themselves any favours. Can you imagine any other legal activity where vigilantes/self styled 'monitors' would be tolerated by the public or the police? (I do know that the police are often caught in the middle and cannot do right for doing wrong). That is not what this thread is about of course but as it was mentioned...!

 

[Sandstone1]

That is frustrating! Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!! On the other hand, the presence of monitors and antis can seriously derail people's plans and intentions. I understand why people feel it may be needed to have hunt monitors/hunt 'safety' officers but a lot of hunting people feel genuinely intimidated by even the most benign hunt monitor as there is so much 'feed' about threatening behaviour - especially when accompanied by people with covered faces. Sadly, some of the antis that come into direct contact with hunts really don't do themselves any favours. Can you imagine any other legal activity where vigilantes/self styled 'monitors' would be tolerated by the public or the police? (I do know that the police are often caught in the middle and cannot do right for doing wrong). That is not what this thread is about of course but as it was mentioned...!

On the other side of the argument though hunt monitors wouldn't be needed if hunting was carried out within the law. Often it isnt. That's a fact in afraid.
if it was truly being done within the law why worry about hunt monitors?
If nothing is being done illegally then there is no cause for concern?
Yes I'm aware hunt monitors are not angels but neither are hunt staff and followers.
It's the weak and unenforceable law at fault im afraid and in my opinion the only sensible thing is a complete ban.
whether that ever happens is anyone's guess with the government in such a mess.

 

[LKWilliams]

On the other side of the argument though hunt monitors wouldn't be needed if hunting was carried out within the law. Often it isnt. That's a fact in afraid.
if it was truly being done within the law why worry about hunt monitors?
If nothing is being done illegally then there is no cause for concern?
Yes I'm aware hunt monitors are not angels but neither are hunt staff and followers.
It's the weak and unenforceable law at fault im afraid and in my opinion the only sensible thing is a complete ban.
whether that ever happens is anyone's guess with the government in such a mess.

Hunt 'monitors' shouldn't be needed anyway. Its utterly terrifying I'm a young lady who goes hunting alone, when I have to park further afield due to limited parking I'm always worried; are they going to cause me and my horse trouble whilst unboxing, mounting and hacking; are they going to cause trouble to my lorry like letting down the tyres. They might catch me getting back at dusk; masked men are intimidating to me. I should not feel uncomfortable going hunting on my own. They wouldn't be allowed to walk round a town like that. Hunting is most definitly a lifestyle and I shouldn't be punished for it. We have always wanted a hunt meet at our house but don't because the 'monitors' would know we are keen hunt supporters and god knows whether they would come protesting about hunting and the fact we live on a beef farm. There is no excuse for that type of behaviour at all.

I understand why antis want to protest and are against hunting; everyone can have an opinion. But protesting with faces covered and on private property is not the way to do it. Our views will not be changed; my parents have always supported the hunt, hounds have always ran over my partners families land for centuries and they are a very keen hunting family.

The more they protest the harder we want to hunt. I do not believe in an outright ban and would be devastated to see hunting lost in history.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Hunt 'monitors' shouldn't be needed anyway. Its utterly terrifying I'm a young lady who goes hunting alone, when I have to park further afield due to limited parking I'm always worried; are they going to cause me and my horse trouble whilst unboxing, mounting and hacking; are they going to cause trouble to my lorry like letting down the tyres. They might catch me getting back at dusk; masked men are intimidating to me. I should not feel uncomfortable going hunting on my own. They wouldn't be allowed to walk round a town like that. Hunting is most definitly a lifestyle and I shouldn't be punished for it. We have always wanted a hunt meet at our house but don't because the 'monitors' would know we are keen hunt supporters and god knows whether they would come protesting about hunting and the fact we live on a beef farm. There is no excuse for that type of behaviour at all.

I understand why antis want to protest and are against hunting; everyone can have an opinion. But protesting with faces covered and on private property is not the way to do it. Our views will not be changed; my parents have always supported the hunt, hounds have always ran over my partners families land for centuries and they are a very keen hunting family.

The more they protest the harder we want to hunt. I do not believe in an outright ban and would be devastated to see hunting lost in history.

Totally agree. They are nothing short of thugs. Regardless of whether you agree with hunting or not it is the job of the police to uphold the law, not a group of trespassing vigilantes. The things I have witnessed them say to women and young children is nothing short of vile. The way they try to terrify horses and kick out at hounds - and they claim to be animal lovers!?!
I hold no respect for them whatsoever.

 

[Sandstone1]

Totally agree. They are nothing short of thugs. Regardless of whether you agree with hunting or not it is the job of the police to uphold the law, not a group of trespassing vigilantes. The things I have witnessed them say to women and young children is nothing short of vile. The way they try to terrify horses and kick out at hounds - and they claim to be animal lovers!?!
I hold no respect for them whatsoever.

But if hunts insist on hunting illegally what do you suggest? The police are not going to go across the countryside to watch foxes being dug out are they?
Yes I'm sure there are faults on both sides but if it was not for hunt monitors hunts would just continue to hunt as they did before the ban.

 

[Equine_Dream]

But if hunts insist on hunting illegally what do you suggest? The police are not going to go across the countryside to watch foxes being dug out are they?
Yes I'm sure there are faults on both sides but if it was not for hunt monitors hunts would just continue to hunt as they did before the ban.

I don't have the answer but dressing up as masked terrorists and forming vigilante gangs is most certainly NOT the answer. It would not be tolerated in towns so why on earth is it tolerated in the countryside?

 

[Equine_Dream]

Also if monitors just stuck to monitoring i.e. not trespassing or intimidating women children and horses alike, I don't think there would be such an issue.

 

[LKWilliams]

It is still not up to the sabs to monitor hunt activity. They just harass people, I certainly wouldnt want to take my child hunting with masked men shouting at me.

It shouldn't be tolerated.
If people want to protest then they should do but not violently and not with their faces covered

 

[Sandstone1]

But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either. Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.

 

[LKWilliams]

I just dont agree with the violence and language used towards women and children. Its utterly disgusting, having respect for people is a basic thing. But as a young lady I do not appreciate being called a Sl*g or B*tch. Its not nice, I always worry about being injured by them

 

[Equine_Dream]

But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either. Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.

Again that is down to the police to monitor. Not a group of masked thugs. Where do we draw the line? What would happen to society if we all took it up ourselves to uphold the law? If the police are not doing their part that is a separate issue entirely. It does not excuse people to act like animals and thugs and break further laws in the process.

 

[ycbm]

I don't agree with the verbal and physical violence, but until ALL hunts make more effort to hunt within the spirit of of the law and openly condemn those which don't, it will continue.

There is absolutely no excuse that I can see after more than fifteen years of ban for trail hunts to be catching more fox than drag packs.

If you know your efforts to make trail hunting more like real hunting than drag hunting is resulting in foxes being caught, then you should change how you lay trails.

And until you do, the sabbing will continue. The choice is yours.

.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That is frustrating! Why on earth don't people check where to park? Our secretary always makes it very clear where it is and isn't appropriate to park. There isn't an excuse for blocking road with horse vehicles!!

The lorry didn’t fully block the road, only partially. However, it was parked in between two bends which are about 100m apart, so visibility was very restricted. If anyone remembers a thread that I posted back in the summer about nearly being rear ended by a driving school car on a blind bend whilst hacking, it was there.

The lorry parked there in the early afternoon, it must have been a prearranged second horses changeover/collect horses meet up for those who were finishing for the day. At the time it was the only hunt vehicle around, so it had the pick of much more suitable places to park. The hunt secretary was one of those whose horse was involved...

The palaver of off loading horses, loading horses, oh whoops we’re stuck, off load horses, get towed off the verge, load horses back on again did stuff the road up for much longer than was necessary. The police directed the traffic past it.

 

[Equine_Dream]

There is absolutely no excuse that I can see after more than fifteen years of ban for trail hunts to be catching more fox than drag packs.

If you know your efforts to make trail hunting more like real hunting than drag hunting is resulting in foxes being caught, then you should change how you lay trails.

And until you do, the sabbing will continue. The choice is yours.

.

Sabbing will continue regardless. I don't believe for one second these thugs care about protecting animals. I 100% believe what we are dealing with is a class war. If it is about animal welfare why do hunts like ours continue to suffer abuse at the hands of sabs when we have not caught a fox for years? We are completely transparent about laying trails. Yet we continue to get abuse?

 

[Tiddlypom]

There are various types of anti. The monitors do just what it says on the tin, they passively monitor. IMHO that is fine, as if you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide.

The sabs actively try to disrupt the hunt with false horn calls and spraying scent blocking stuff around. They tend to mask up and shout abuse much more. They were the ones that I saw at the w/e, and they seemed pretty damn organised.

I think that my local pack will be thinking wistfully back to the time when they were ‘only’ monitored. They now have the sabs on them and they are a very different entity, and much more scary.

 

[LKWilliams]

I think its awful that they shout at children, ive seen them upset many.

If they cared about animals they wouldnt scare the horses or kick hounds.

I completely agree that in most cases it is a class war.

 

[ycbm]

Sabbing will continue regardless. I don't believe for one second these thugs care about protecting animals. I 100% believe what we are dealing with is a class war. If it is about animal welfare why do hunts like ours continue to suffer abuse at the hands of sabs when we have not caught a fox for years? We are completely transparent about laying trails. Yet we continue to get abuse?

I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed. if hunting foxes ends I think they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox? Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.

 

[palo1]

But chasing animals for miles before allowing dogs to rip them apart wouldn't be tolerated either. Or digging animals out of their earth before throwing them to the hounds.
If the hunt monitors didn't trespass they wouldn't see some of the stuff that does go on.

Have you been trailhunting Sandstone? Have you been out with a gunman or other person who is wanting to control foxes?

 

[palo1]

The lorry didn’t fully block the road, only partially. However, it was parked in between two bends which are about 100m apart, so visibility was very restricted. If anyone remembers a thread that I posted back in the summer about nearly being rear ended by a driving school car on a blind bend whilst hacking, it was there.

The lorry parked there in the early afternoon, it must have been a prearranged second horses changeover/collect horses meet up for those who were finishing for the day. At the time it was the only hunt vehicle around, so it had the pick of much more suitable places to park. The hunt secretary was one of those whose horse was involved...

The palaver of off loading horses, loading horses, oh whoops we’re stuck, off load horses, get towed off the verge, load horses back on again did stuff the road up for much longer than was necessary. The police directed the traffic past it.

Blimey - that must have been a right pain!

 

[palo1]

I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed. if hunting foxes ends I think they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox? Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.

Once the sabs have sabbed shooting and fishing to extinction then, what will they do next? Obviously racing could be a target although probably too much money/too many vested interests for masked and abusive people at race meetings to be tolerated but where would they go?? Possibly all equestrian sport, pet ownership, obviously animal farming, zoos etc will become a target. Trail hunting is legal and should be treated like other legal activities - there are very, very few convictions under the Hunting Act and more people than ever going out trail, drag and bloodhound hunting. For some reason people love to fantasise about the extent of illegal fox hunting they believe is happening; I see it as a proxy class war OR (in my area anyway where hunting is much more of a working class thing) emblematic of the rural/urban divide. It completely encapsulates, for me the lack of understanding and involvement in rural matters and the very sad distancing of urban communities (and those that move to the countryside) from our rural cultural roots. It is upsetting and insulting to hear, on a regular basis that because I take part in a legal activity, that I must be lying or dissembling; that I must be deluded and a vicious, sadistic individual. Is this true of everyone who goes out hunting?? Really? Monitoring hunts is fine, sabbing is not and there isn't a place in a decent democracy for that in any discussion; whatever you believe is right or wrong, in this country it is NOT acceptable to mask up and abuse people who must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty.

 

[Equine_Dream]

I don't think it will. Drag hunts are not sabbed. if hunting foxes ends I think they will move on to shooting and fishing.

You continue to get abuse because other trail hunts are hunting fox and while they continue to do that you will all be sabbed.

Has your hunt openly criticised the ones which are hunting fox? Because it's well known inside the hunting community and I'm not aware of any hunt reporting another to the police for breaking the law.

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I don't think for one minute these people do it for the love of animals. If they did, they would not actively try to frighten horses and kick out at hounds and harass hunts that, if they did their research, they would know they have not caught foxes for years. I have seen far too much to make me believe otherwise I'm afraid.

Our hunt would have no issue with peaceful monitoring as we have nothing to hide. However violent bullies will not be tolerated.

 

[spacefaer]

Drag hunts are sabbed. So are bloodhound packs.
The antis are also sabbing perfectly legal shoots. Just because they may not agree with shooting does not give them the right to trespass onto private land and disrupt legal activities.
There will always be sabbing as long as the big 'animal welfare ' groups continue to have the funds to pay them.

 

[ycbm]

Drag hunts are sabbed. S.

When I have challenged this assertion in the past, the only incident anybody has ever been able to produce any evidence of is a decades old case of mistaken identity. I drag hunted for years and have been out with four different packs and I've never seen a sab in my life. And the meets are fully publicised, it wouldn't be difficult to find them.

.

 

[ycbm]

Once the sabs have sabbed shooting and fishing to extinction then, what will they do next? Obviously racing could be a target although probably too much money/too many vested interests for masked and abusive people at race meetings to be tolerated but where would they go?? Possibly all equestrian sport, pet ownership, obviously animal farming, zoos etc will become a target. Trail hunting is legal and should be treated like other legal activities - there are very, very few convictions under the Hunting Act and more people than ever going out trail, drag and bloodhound hunting. For some reason people love to fantasise about the extent of illegal fox hunting they believe is happening; I see it as a proxy class war OR (in my area anyway where hunting is much more of a working class thing) emblematic of the rural/urban divide. It completely encapsulates, for me the lack of understanding and involvement in rural matters and the very sad distancing of urban communities (and those that move to the countryside) from our rural cultural roots. It is upsetting and insulting to hear, on a regular basis that because I take part in a legal activity, that I must be lying or dissembling; that I must be deluded and a vicious, sadistic individual. Is this true of everyone who goes out hunting?? Really? Monitoring hunts is fine, sabbing is not and there isn't a place in a decent democracy for that in any discussion; whatever you believe is right or wrong, in this country it is NOT acceptable to mask up and abuse people who must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty.

I think you're absolutely correct in your prediction of the future. The days when humans believe that they have a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals are numbered.

I'm personally glad I got to ride before that happens, but I have little doubt that it will.

.

 

[ycbm]

if they did their research, they would know they have not caught foxes for years..

How?

 

[spacefaer]

When I have challenged this assertion in the past, the only incident anybody has ever been able to produce any evidence of is a decades old case of mistaken identity. I drag hunted for years and have been out with four different packs and I've never seen a sab in my life. And the meets are fully publicised, it wouldn't be difficult to find them..

A cursory google takes two seconds to bring up this report. I have friends who hunt with the drag down in the South East - they say that sabs actually run with the hounds (impressively fit) and attempt to disrupt the day regardless of the quarry

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...y-farmers-draghounds-hunt-saboteurs-89b9vp9td

 

[ycbm]

Fair enough. I cant speak for the south except one meet. The report is seven years old though.

.

 

[Equine_Dream]

How?

As I say we would welcome peaceful monitors to join us on foot or on horse if they wish.
However my experience has taught me they are not interested in the truth. Far too preoccupied with bullying women and children in my experience.

 

[palo1]

I don't agree with the verbal and physical violence, but until ALL hunts make more effort to hunt within the spirit of of the law and openly condemn those which don't, it will continue.

I think you're absolutely correct in your prediction of the future. The days when humans believe that they have a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals are numbered.

I'm personally glad I got to ride before that happens, but I have little doubt that it will.

.

I don't actually know anyone (other than the occasional fundamentalist Christian) that believes they have 'a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals...' Other than those fundamentalist Christians (who I only know because of meeting them at the school gates on a regular basis) completely understands that a relationship with an animal is NOT a right. Do you truly believe that this is how people who have animals or visit zoos, farm parks or keep animals feel?

Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'. The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc. I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law). There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality. That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink. Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.

As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!

 

[spacefaer]

Fair enough. I cant speak for the south except one meet. The report is seven years old though..

Ironically exactly 2 years ago - 25th November 2017