Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I've been hunting years ago before the ban and decided it wasn't for me.
I cant make up my mind...thoughts on hunting
- Thread starter dreamerinreallife
- Start date
palo1
Well-Known Member
That is absolutely fair enough Sandstone1. You may feel it is semantics but scent hunting by fox hounds is not at all the same as 'being chased for miles...' The scientific evidence demonstrates that foxes continue to act out normal behaviours during the course of a hunt unless hounds are very close whereupon it may well be a chase but never for miles - either hounds are upon a fox or he slips away. That is irrelevant now of course.
ponyparty
Well-Known Member
I've been lurking on this thread for ages now, not commenting because everything i would say has already been said by palo1! And probably much more eloquently than i would have put it; plus, with vastly greater experience of hunting than I have. I've only been out once autumn hunting and once main season, mounted, have foot followed a fair few more times. I was brought up in the city mainly, although have ties to to the countryside. It saddens me also to think that one day hunting could be consigned to the history books - it evokes a feeling in me like no other that I can describe. My peers, old school friends, work colleagues etc are almost all vehemently anti; although not one of them has ever been hunting or knows anything about it apart from anti propaganda.
I absolutely agree that if hunting is banned outright, they'll be onto the next thing. Where it stops depends on the level of animal rights extremism. I wish the AR lot would concentrate more on where real suffering is happening. Puppy farming, horses being left to starve to death in fields or getting so fat they are crippled with laminitis, non-stun ritual slaughter... all things that seemingly go unnoticed by the AR brigade. These things are rife, in huge numbers, and/or cause prolonged suffering over days/weeks/months/years. So where are all the masked protesters and thugs sorting that out? Doesn't make sense to me. They could harness their power to much greater effect and save so many animals. But it's just not "sexy" enough, or won't garner enough public support, or is just too much damned effort - much easier to target a hunt going about its lawful business.
I absolutely agree that if hunting is banned outright, they'll be onto the next thing. Where it stops depends on the level of animal rights extremism. I wish the AR lot would concentrate more on where real suffering is happening. Puppy farming, horses being left to starve to death in fields or getting so fat they are crippled with laminitis, non-stun ritual slaughter... all things that seemingly go unnoticed by the AR brigade. These things are rife, in huge numbers, and/or cause prolonged suffering over days/weeks/months/years. So where are all the masked protesters and thugs sorting that out? Doesn't make sense to me. They could harness their power to much greater effect and save so many animals. But it's just not "sexy" enough, or won't garner enough public support, or is just too much damned effort - much easier to target a hunt going about its lawful business.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
I’ve only just realised that a police motorbike is parked across the road in front of the Land Rover to block through traffic, presumably while the horsebox was dealt with. The police motorbiker can be seen in the distance wearing a white helmet. There also 3 police cars present. The police were brilliant, very fair. They asked the sabs to pull their face coverings down.
I was just an onlooker getting suspicious looks from both the pro hunt lot and the sabs, and there were loads of sabs.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I don't actually know anyone (other than the occasional fundamentalist Christian) that believes they have 'a basic right to obtain enjoyment by using animals...' Other than those fundamentalist Christians (who I only know because of meeting them at the school gates on a regular basis) completely understands that a relationship with an animal is NOT a right. Do you truly believe that this is how people who have animals or visit zoos, farm parks or keep animals feel?
Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'. The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc. I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law). There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality. That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink. Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.
As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-on-hunting.782561/page-4#EWH6ouGtoseF7rfs.99
Not everyone treats animals how I might hope but even the hardest of hill farmers here knows it is a privelage to keep animals and most of those hill farmers would rather go hungry themselves than see their animals suffer in their eyes. The fact that possibly farming of animals at all is contentious doesn't automatically mean that those people feel they have this 'basic right'. The same goes for so many things - having children, keeping pets, etc etc. I just think you are making a wild assumption here in order to strengthen your position on hunting (which is legal as long as carried out within the law). There seems to be an absolute assumption that all trail hunting is either carried out illegally or with a tacit approval to illegality. That is like saying that everyone going to the pub is going to drink. Drink driving is illegal so anyone driving home from the pub is driving illegally and that anyone else in the pub is tacitly approving of drink driving.
As it happens I do wonder why rural vigilantes don't hang round the pub more often - drink driving kills more people than illegal hunting will ever kill foxes I reckon!
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-on-hunting.782561/page-4#EWH6ouGtoseF7rfs.99
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
palo1, it must be very frustrating if you hunt with a pack which is genuinely doing its best to hunt within the law to be tarred with the brush of those who aren’t.
The trouble is that all packs insist that they are trail hunting legally, and only some of them mean it.
My view is coloured because my local pack was insisting that it was hunting legally when it most certainly wasn’t. This is a fairly posh pack. It was the pressure of the antis which has forced them to reform and start trail hunting this season, as some major landowners said that they had to clean up their act or they would no longer be allowed on their land. Unfortunately though I think they are now genuinely trying to trail hunt, the sabs are still on them and covering every move, and every time hounds go into cry on a trail the sabs insist they are after a fox and disrupt them. It’s a horrible situation, but it is of their own making.
ETA Are the sabs aware that this pack is now trail hunting within the law? Yes, almost certainly they are, but IMHO they are now gunning for this pack anyway.
The trouble is that all packs insist that they are trail hunting legally, and only some of them mean it.
My view is coloured because my local pack was insisting that it was hunting legally when it most certainly wasn’t. This is a fairly posh pack. It was the pressure of the antis which has forced them to reform and start trail hunting this season, as some major landowners said that they had to clean up their act or they would no longer be allowed on their land. Unfortunately though I think they are now genuinely trying to trail hunt, the sabs are still on them and covering every move, and every time hounds go into cry on a trail the sabs insist they are after a fox and disrupt them. It’s a horrible situation, but it is of their own making.
ETA Are the sabs aware that this pack is now trail hunting within the law? Yes, almost certainly they are, but IMHO they are now gunning for this pack anyway.
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Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with the masks and violence. Although from watching some recent videos the violence is on both sides on occasions.
I think that there really does need to be close monitoring of hunts as it has been shown on lots of occasions that illegal hunting is going on.
Someone has to keep a close eye on this as the police dont.
If hunts don't do anything wrong they have no need to worry.
Can it honestly be said that all hunts are working within the law?
I really do think that a complete ban is the way it will go.
If people want to keep hunting then maybe they should do so within the law.
This will as ever just keep going round in circles so I'm out of this conversation as don't want to get in to long drawn out arguments.
I think that there really does need to be close monitoring of hunts as it has been shown on lots of occasions that illegal hunting is going on.
Someone has to keep a close eye on this as the police dont.
If hunts don't do anything wrong they have no need to worry.
Can it honestly be said that all hunts are working within the law?
I really do think that a complete ban is the way it will go.
If people want to keep hunting then maybe they should do so within the law.
This will as ever just keep going round in circles so I'm out of this conversation as don't want to get in to long drawn out arguments.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
You may not know anyone who goes around saying they have 'dominion over animals' as per the bible, but we live lives that are simply saturated with that entitlement. We eat animals for the pleasure of it when we can do perfectly well without, we ride horses without even thinking about whether it might be wrong to do that, we castrate males of many species to make them easier to keep as pets or livestock, we remove many types of animal we define as vermin because they are in the wrong place for us, the list is endless.
I'm not saying that I think any of this is wrong, but there are certainly other people who are questioning it, and I can see a future where it becomes the accepted viewpoint.
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palo1
Well-Known Member
Thanks Tiddlypom and Sandstone1 - I think, possibly not arguments but discussion and debate over issues are really helpful even when frustrating! I do accept that it is extraordinarily difficult to identify when a pack is hunting legally. But under the law it is legal to trailhunt. Hounds noses are extraordinary and just because one hound picks up a line, it doesn't mean that it is always exactly where you might expect; long, long experience tells me though that hounds don't lie - scent carries incredibly variously so you might be watching and think 'No way is that the line' but depending on conditions, it may well be. Hounds just take a line where they find it - they will look for the best or strongest but if it is good enough they will take it!! A huntsman may not know for a few minutes if they are 'correct' and decent houndwork should leave them to sort themselves out and not constantly be told where to look and what to do. Under the ban it is tempting for huntsmen and whips to be anxious to not only make sure hounds are exactly where they should be but also to be seen to be where others 'think' they 'should' be. For most traditional hunting people however that approach is anathema to both the innate nature of hounds and the skill of the huntsman and it takes confidence, trust and hard work all round to have a pack of hounds that will work for themselves. That is why many hunting people feel passionate about trail hunting rather than the much more predictable 'open' lines of the drag hunt which is much more for the riders than for houndwork; there is great passion for the talent of the hounds and the only way that can really be preserved is for the lines of a trailhunt to be as realistic as possible. Our traillayers work incredible (ridiculously at times) hard to make trails that will work the hounds as they should be and of course, other than quite vague information will absolutely NOT tell the huntsman where those trails are laid. That, and the way that hounds are means that sometimes the line that hounds take looks 'wrong' (i.e through undrideable coverts etc).
It has completely mystified me for many years how antis who don't work with hounds have any idea whatsoever whether hounds are on a trail or on the 'wrong' line. As someone who loves houndwork and knows individual hounds I don't always know what they are thinking or trying to work out so how on earth do the antis/sabs when they are not only often disrupting things but also don't know hounds very well? If antis disturb foxes in a covert or disturb hounds working on a particular line then hounds move in the 'wrong' direction who is really to blame?
It has completely mystified me for many years how antis who don't work with hounds have any idea whatsoever whether hounds are on a trail or on the 'wrong' line. As someone who loves houndwork and knows individual hounds I don't always know what they are thinking or trying to work out so how on earth do the antis/sabs when they are not only often disrupting things but also don't know hounds very well? If antis disturb foxes in a covert or disturb hounds working on a particular line then hounds move in the 'wrong' direction who is really to blame?
palo1
Well-Known Member
You are right in that I don't know anyone who actually says that they have 'dominion over animals' but I do know of people who say that animals were put on this earth for us to use. I agree that we need to question our relationship and attitude to animals and in fact all of nature - that is vital for the future. I very much hope we will see a future where our place in nature is far more balanced than currently.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Re the police don’t on a sab fb page that was linked to there were plenty of police out including on quads and they were still complaining because the police were obviously complicit and just having a day on their expensive toys so they can’t win!
Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
You are right that this argument just goes round and round in circles. Sabs cry outrage and claim illegal hunting. Hunts cry that sabs are harassing and causing disruption. Both sides clearly detest each other.
A compromise would be that hunts are more open with their activities and allow peaceful monitoring to be carried out. However that's what it must be; PEACEFUL i.e. no masks no harassment, no name calling, no intimidation, no violence whatsoever (on both sides), and MONITORING i.e no interference with hounds or lines.
If hunts are illegally hunting then it will soon come to light, and those that are following the law will not endure the endless harassment from sabs.
However we both know this will never happen as neither side will back down. I really fear for the future of hunting and other outdoor pursuits. Once hunting has gone they will no doubt turn their attention elsewhere.
TGM
Well-Known Member
I know nothing about drag hunting, but your description does not fit my experience of bloodhounding at all! Granted, our family have the good fortune to go out with a pack whose huntsman has 30 years experience of hunting bloodhounds. There is a huge amount of skill involved on his behalf, and it is amazing to watch the relationship he has with his hounds. Whilst as with any pack there are some that are just out to jump and gallop, there are a lot who actually do love to see the hounds work as well.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I do have hope for the future of hunting and other things Equine_Dream 
I think that as everyone has to become much more aware of the need to manage climate change far more effectively and perhaps use nature less selfishly and intensively there will be a renewed understanding of the place that 'field sports' (how I hate that term!!) may have in the future. I feel optimistic about this, not because of the current situation but because I feel that people won't endlessly tolerate the kind of extremist behaviour we now see and that as more people feel the debate about use of nature is valid to them there may be greater clarity achieved and hopefully less entrenched positions taken. I also feel optimistic because organisations that I see as forward thinking (some rewilding organisations for example) absolutely recognise the potential of hunting etc within a more balanced system that works FOR nature. There are many distractions of course (like Chris Packham...), many vested interests and huge amounts of ignorance but I still think that if you look from a different perspective; where you consider the value and balance given to traditional, low impact hunting cultures in healthy ecosystems and nature-engaged communities, there is hope. Keep hunting!!
I think that as everyone has to become much more aware of the need to manage climate change far more effectively and perhaps use nature less selfishly and intensively there will be a renewed understanding of the place that 'field sports' (how I hate that term!!) may have in the future. I feel optimistic about this, not because of the current situation but because I feel that people won't endlessly tolerate the kind of extremist behaviour we now see and that as more people feel the debate about use of nature is valid to them there may be greater clarity achieved and hopefully less entrenched positions taken. I also feel optimistic because organisations that I see as forward thinking (some rewilding organisations for example) absolutely recognise the potential of hunting etc within a more balanced system that works FOR nature. There are many distractions of course (like Chris Packham...), many vested interests and huge amounts of ignorance but I still think that if you look from a different perspective; where you consider the value and balance given to traditional, low impact hunting cultures in healthy ecosystems and nature-engaged communities, there is hope. Keep hunting!! Equine_Dream
Well-Known Member
Very well put Palo! 👠I truly hope you are right
palo1
Well-Known Member
I've been lurking on this thread for ages now, not commenting because everything i would say has already been said by palo1!
It is great to know that others feel the same about it
Foxterrierist
Member
Whatever your view on hunting the sabs seem really extreme and downright nasty. For this reason I’m put off going, as it just doesn’t seem worth the hassle. I’ve seen footage where they come up to riders and attack them and the horse. Let’s face it, in that situation you have to defend yourself and will probably end up on an assault charge.
Foxterrierist
Member
The Hunt in Warwickshire employ security staff to keep riders safe but the sabs still manage to attack and harass them. Heard them go past my place and wanted to go see the hounds in cry which sounded amazing, but was put off by sab presence and didn’t fancy being stalked / filmed by these loons!
Starzaan
Well-Known Member
What a wonderful and well written answer. I agree wholeheartedly with every word, and you put it much better than me haha!
palo1
Well-Known Member
Too kind! It is something I feel passionately about tbh. I am sad that the possibility of sabs present might put people off; that is exactly what they want of course. But also because I do think hunting with hounds could have a real relevance in a more ecologically aware future. There is so much evidence to suggest that hunting with hounds acting in lieu of our now vanished top predators would be more balanced and beneficial in a number of ways than shooting/poisoning/gassing etc. There is an environmental charity has that deployed volunteers to 'act' as wolves in an effort to protect emerging new woodland trees from deer; not to predate the deer of course but to put in place the other effects that a top predator such as a pack of wolves has in an environment. These are far reaching and subtle but very famously documented in Yellowstone park USA. Of course that would only have a very, very small part to play in a more balanced countryside but as we become increasingly aware of the the delicate web of links in nature who knows? I do understand why people think hunting an animal with hounds might be cruel - they have been told that over and over and over again but most people who campaign (not everyone) has not seen the reality or is possibly understandably turned off by the cultural elements - the dress, the rituals etc. That isn't anything to do with the death of a fox by hounds. It is also worth repeating (probably ad nauseam) that there is no sense whatsoever in believing that hunting a fox with hounds is worse than hunting rats with terriers. I don't have a problem with either myself but rats are as intelligent, social and sentient as foxes and they do suffer fear and stress when faced with terriers. Yet there is very, very little disquiet about that practice. The law is an ass but must be abided by sadly. In the meantime vixens heavily in cub and nursing youngsters this summer will be shot, gassed, trapped and poisoned.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Palo, the difference between fox hunting and terriers ratting is primarily the chase and the length of time the hunted animal is aware of being hunted, secondarily the digging out of a gone to ground animal, the cubbing carried out to teach young hounds to hunt and the hunting and kennel injuries of the hounds.
It makes sense to many people that fox hunting is worse than ratting, and you can repeat that it doesn't ad nauseam if you choose, but it doesn't make you right. It just devalues your other arguments, which are very well put.
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It makes sense to many people that fox hunting is worse than ratting, and you can repeat that it doesn't ad nauseam if you choose, but it doesn't make you right. It just devalues your other arguments, which are very well put.
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Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
Recent behaviour of one hunt. This has been witnessed by independent witnesses not just sabs. Trespass on a rail line causing delays and could have De railed a train. Hounds running through a grave yard and pooing on graves. Hounds running through people's gardens. Hounds hunting a fox through a village at school time in view of young school children. Hounds illegally hunting and killing a fox. Quad bikes on roads with no number plates. How's that right? No doubt there will be excuses but it I drive on a road with no number plates or had out of control dogs what do you think would happen?
palo1
Well-Known Member
Well that is a fair response ycbm. There is evidence and plenty of it (including veterinary evidence) that awareness of being hunted is not especially stressful for an animal evolved for it as a fox is. Clearly it IS stressful in the last part of a hunt though that may be counterbalanced by the binary outcome. I know that there tend to be very polarised views on this - exemplified by mine and yours! The digging out of a fox is a different thing to me - although a skilled job and one that is still legal outside of a trail hunting scenario, it has always seemed unfair and, when carried out by people, unnatural. But that is not a contested practice in law.
The old fashioned cubbing is very much a part of a deliberate hunt and I do agree to some extent with you that it is unfair though that practice evolved to deal with young foxes and young hounds. I have seen nothing like that post ban hunting though you say you have seen it go on. Certainly the encircling of a covert by riders does not happen now in my experience. I have seen riders placed strategically by the field master in order to ensure that hounds do not travel in a certain direction. Although trails are laid (and should be correct) there are times when a belt and braces approach is definately best. I have seen this deployed when a fox has been seen and it is possible to line riders out to make certain that hounds do NOT follow that trail. Sabs don't often understand that and I guess they may deliberately misinterpret it tbh. I get your point about ad nauseam too - that happens on both sides of this argument and I can't help believing and continuing to assert what I see, understand and believe. I don't think most people give a damn about rats and that is why they think killing them with dogs is ok. Foxes are beautiful, iconic to our understanding of the countryside and have become emblematic of a very specific cultural divide.
Bob notacob
Well-Known Member
A well presented opinion. In my experience of 50 years hunting, the fox is always given an out , a chance to run . We dont chop foxes . I have seen plenty of foxes chopped but purely due to outside(anti) action.Well that is a fair response ycbm. There is evidence and plenty of it (including veterinary evidence) that awareness of being hunted is not especially stressful for an animal evolved for it as a fox is. Clearly it IS stressful in the last part of a hunt though that may be counterbalanced by the binary outcome. I know that there tend to be very polarised views on this - exemplified by mine and yours! The digging out of a fox is a different thing to me - although a skilled job and one that is still legal outside of a trail hunting scenario, it has always seemed unfair and, when carried out by people, unnatural. But that is not a contested practice in law.
I get your point about ad nauseam too - that happens on both sides of this argument and I can't help believing and continuing to assert what I see, understand and believe. I don't think most people give a damn about rats and that is why they think killing them with dogs is ok. Foxes are beautiful, iconic to our understanding of the countryside and have become emblematic of a very specific cultural divide.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
What is ‘chopping’ a fox?
palo1
Well-Known Member
It's not a term I am familiar with Tiddlypom tbh so I am hoping Bob notacob will be back!! As an aside though it may be linked, I have absolutely seen antis placed so that a fox may be turned back toward hounds. I don't see enough antis to know if that is entirely deliberate and planned in the hope they can then film 'illegal' trail hunting or more often due to ignorance/lack of understanding and lack of detailed knowledge of the country (in terms of fox favoured hedgerows/crops/coverts etc) but it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to cause trouble for hunts and for foxes.
I don't see enough antis to know if that is entirely deliberate and planned in the hope they can then film 'illegal' trail hunting or more often due to ignorance/lack of understanding and lack of detailed knowledge of the country (in terms of fox favoured hedgerows/crops/coverts etc) but it serves no purpose whatsoever other than to cause trouble for hunts and for foxes. Foxychops
Well-Known Member
I'm on the fence. Love to see them out but don't like the fact they do still hunt rather than trail. If they actually followed a trail I would be happy. As it stands I would prefer a total ban
Fred66
Well-Known Member
Sadly you are probably right. A vocal minority of people are allowed to go unchecked, intimidating and threatening people in an attempt to force others to adhere to their way of thinking. By all means lobby your MP or arrange protests but at no point has it ever been acceptable for anyone to break the law to try and assess whether another law might or might not be being broken.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
I suspect the future of some hunts in increasingly populated areas is already very fragile. I live very close to the boundary of two hunt countries and as a result there are weeks when I have two days when I have to keep my horses in. Clearly both hunts are using the same areas more frequently as they have less land available to them. It's noticeable talking to neighbours that generally they are less well disposed to hunting as we have more shoots in the area and more land is being turned over to different uses other than farming, also with the current climate the hunt coming through makes a horrible mess of the land because we are on heavy clay. TBH what really winds me up are the car followers who block the single track lanes and frequently park in my gateways, making a real mess and the one hunt who now lets me know if they are are within 10 miles of me, just in case, so I end up keeping my horses in unnecessarily. Foxes don't have any natural predators and need to be controlled (as do rats) but I'm becoming increasingly of the opinion that hunting is not the way to do it.