I think Swales Bits should be banned from the show ring.

I dont see how you can argue that most horse people do not fully understand how the bit works at the same time you argue Joe Bloggs who has never seen a horse outside a bookies will not stand for it's use?

Crufts was a very differetn issue,the in bred health problems suffered by some breeds is in peoples homes-they see their dog,their friend or neighbours dog suffering knowing not a damn thing can be done to help and it caused(spurred on by some "wonderfull" programing) a backlash.
Bitting is a completly different subject-what is right for a one horse will be hell for the next,and the ability of the rider has an impact on bit choice as well.

Bottom line,because it is late and I can not be bothered anymore,is that riders and owners must choose which piece of kit is best for their horse.
I see no reason a person should be made to feel guilty or have to justify their choice to anyone so long as they know they made it for the right reasons.
 
teagreen said:
It's not an inappropriate bit though - I can think of many show horses who use it and none of them go around looking like they are in pain or objecting in any way. I have seen some terrible displays locally with riders in plain snaffles or gags, their horses are clearly in distress; I don't see any horses looking like them in a swales at a show, do you?

I have seen it used in the showring, by driving people, by someone who teamchases and by people who simply ride in it at home. All of those people think it works for them and their horse, who looks comfortable and happy in their way of going - none of them look terrified thanks to the hunk of metal in their mouths causing them distress.
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It not the hunk of metel in the mouth that will cause pain but the ring pushing on the buccal nerve. As I have stated before horses may react to this pain in differant ways, but this does not mean the pain does not exsist.

Anedotal evidence is one thing but looking at the bit in an analytical scientific way surely tells the whole story.
 
anima said:
I dont see how you can argue that most horse people do not fully understand how the bit works at the same time you argue Joe Bloggs who has never seen a horse outside a bookies will not stand for it's use?

Crufts was a very differetn issue,the in bred health problems suffered by some breeds is in peoples homes-they see their dog,their friend or neighbours dog suffering knowing not a damn thing can be done to help and it caused(spurred on by some "wonderfull" programing) a backlash.
Bitting is a completly different subject-what is right for a one horse will be hell for the next,and the ability of the rider has an impact on bit choice as well.

Bottom line,because it is late and I can not be bothered anymore,is that riders and owners must choose which piece of kit is best for their horse.
I see no reason a person should be made to feel guilty or have to justify their choice to anyone so long as they know they made it for the right reasons.
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Goodnight Anima, past my bed time as well, so signing off.

Final thought: have we established this bit is a harsh bit in the wrong hands. If so how do we keep it out of them hands.

PS Sensatioanal programming is fantastic at making the bookie goers hate the horse owners even more, hay we are not the most popular section of society to start of with.

Perhaps we should pick this up again tomorrow
 
antagonist said:
Re fumanchu use of a sam marsh because her horses mouth is too small for a pelham, I will leave for people to look at the picture and make thier own decision:


http://www.horsebitbank.com/sam-marsh-pelham-447.phtml

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Flexi-Mullen-Mouth-Pelham-Bit/productinfo/BITFMMP/

But as she said she is not having anyone telling her what to use:)
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But then, why should any of us be told, it is the best way to put backs up. Unless a horse is known personally how are we to know (other than what we are told on here) how a horse goes or what it prefers?


Perhaps F's horse dislikes rubber/plastic or whatever the mullen pelham is made of as well as the shape. All of mine loathe thick mouthpieces and prefer sweet iron. If someone told me I should use a different bit my answer would be "Why? Do you own this horse? Ride this horse? Know this horse at all?" If you suggested that so and so bit might suit my horse then I'd be happy to listen to your thoughts.
 
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Antagonist....have at last trawled through this very looooooong thread and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put these contraptions in their horses mouths at any time...Swales is horrible (don't think you'd even get it in my horses mouth as it's huuuuuge) and the Sam marsh looks equally revolting, whether in experienced hands or not.

I agree with you that top level showing is supposed to be top level mannerly, well schooled, obedient horses, soooooo why would they need these bits in their mouths? and then when the judge rides them are they not thinking 'why does this horse need this? wonder what it's like in a double bridle or indeed a snaffle?'

As showing is about schooling and obedience then I agree Swales and Sam marsh bits should be banned from the ring, they are not allowed in British Dressage which is all about manners, obedience and schooling, so I think that says it all really.
Ok in showing they do have to show a gallop in a large open area, which they don't in dressage, but the horse is supposed to be well schooled is it not?

I did a fair bit of showing 25 years ago, everything went in a snaffle or a double.

Also, whoever it was that said they had to ride their cob in one of the above, why? we've had cobs over the years and if well schooled they are no stronger than anything else.

So, for what it's worth I 100% agree that these bits are not needed in the show ring and that much stronger rules need to be brought in as to the kind of bits children are allowed to use in the ring.
 
I do have a bit of a problem with driving bits being used on ridden horses and vice versa, as the design/evolution of them is to do different jobs .A bit designed for use without the legs as aids are unlikely to be ideal for ridden horses IMO. That said, if I do not know that horse and its way of going, perhaps I should mind my own business. I do however think the comment that riding lessons are needed if your horse is in need of any bit other than a snaffle, show a sad ignorance of reality. Having a mare who is more than happy in a myler pelham, after buying her with a single jointed 3 ring gag in her mouth (ridden with one rein!) and having ridden said mare in a snaffle, which resulted in as many evasions as she could come up with, I will stick with the proof of my inability to ride and keep the pelham, which gives me a calm, willing and non evading horse.
 
LEC said:
Any bit can be a razor in a monkeys hands.
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Yes very well said!!!

rosiefronfelen said:
pastie, that is so right,the double was common on the hunting field too- all this ironmongery in horses mouths these days take away the need for good, light hands- both of ours go in snaffles,they are big horses with beautiful light mouths.that is standards for you, or the lowering of--
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I love my double. After a truly spectacular hunting debut (coloured Suffolk x in field of 50 or so bay TBs, passing the Master 4 times in one morning. And we weren't even fit enough to be out long!!) I put him in a double, just as he "got it" (outing 4 or 5 I think).

The thing I love, love, love, about having a curb, is it's independent. It ain't there all day regardless. Soon as horse gets rude you can give it whatever level it requires of "tweak" on that, weight instantly shifts back and you go "great here have the snaffle". Education, love it, brilliant sudden way to get weight off front end. Lean again, here you go, touch curb, polite pony. Rinse and repeat.

I have to admit, the way I cured the running off hunting problem was putting the double on, making sure both bits were mouthpieces he likes and buying the weymouth with the longest shank I could get my hands on, turning into the first field, encountering the first inkling of "screw you" and hoiking up quick and hard on one side of the curb. We were another lady's BRAKES later that day. You get the picture. V happy horse and rider at end of day.

Mean yes, but a split second and I now have a horse that does everything, and in particular can hunt sanely and safely and he is a fab hunter and he so knows it. He so adores hunting. He couldn't do that if I hadn't used those tools (plural because I use curb with spurs).

And also, my instructor only let me NEAR these things after 5 years of lessons and with close scrutiny and careful supervision. He's a big bloody horse, and though in all ways the politest thing you'd ever meet, he has an odd obsession with going FAST which is great but he gave me the finger for 7 years. Was annoying.

Oh and also, I ride out in a driving bit. But does it vindicate me if I tell you, honestly, out hacking loads and xc (only times I use it) I have so much as touched it, around twice (can remember them!!!) in like, the last 6 months?

I got me a nice, light, P O W E R F U L pony out of a big sharp brute :)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CotswoldSJ View Post
Because its better to use a harsh bit lightly than haul on a snaffle?
Or the third option would be have some lessons on learn how to ride.
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But I can ride - and my horse is in a snaffle 99% of the time - however, he's in a cheltenham gag to hunt. Simply no other option. Or would it be more prefereable to be carted around the country with no control, hauling on his mouth???
 
This may have already been said but after several pages of responses, I haven't read them all....but I prefer the use of a Swales over a double in SOME instances. For example, my Welsh D mare has a large fleshy tounge and not a whole lot of room in their for two bits. She will go okay in a snaffle, but typical of a cob, is heavy on the forehand and can run on a bit. Nothing but schooling will really sort that out in the long run...however does that mean she just should not go out showing? I have rather light hands, too much so some would argue. The swales mouth piece is not hugely ported, it's got a rather gentle, yet narrow mouthpiece (good for her fat tongue to move under). It, like any other bit, can be abused...

Having said that, I never actually showed her in it - we did mainly dressage. I did however use it to school in a few times and it did the job, and got put away again in favor of a snaffle.

The swales however, is becoming a fashion item.
 
fumanchu said:
Roulletterose...you say a Sam Marsh "looks equally revolting".

Have you actually seen one?
Do you, and indeed Antagonistic, know how and where they sit in the mouth?
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I didn't actually know what a Sam Marsh was before I saw the pictures on this thread! (my bad :p)

What I see is a bit with a flat mouthpiece which would obviously take very little room up in the mouth. Compare that to a gob full of lovely kind plastic for a horse with very little room and I can see completely how your horse prefers it.

As for the snaffle "debate" FWIW I wouldn't actually ever use a single jointed or french link snaffle on any horse any more. The supposition that these are "kind" bits is IMO way out of date.

You only have to lay either of them over your forearm and exert pressure and you will get your skin nipped or pinched. That could happen to the horses tongue :confused:

I always use a lozenge snaffle now as it eliminates the nutcracker and pinching action, it won't accidentally poke my horse in the roof of the mouth either.

Rubber snaffles? well, rubber really doesn't taste nice and I think they are a bit sticky in the mouth. I prefer metal.

Plastic snaffles again are a bit of a gob full, if your horse has room great, mine hasn't. The chew marks get a bit sharp as well.

Well I am just rambling now :p just really trying to say getting your horse in a snaffle shouldn't be the holy grail IMO.

And to echo an earlier comment, no bit is cruel. They are passive in the mouth until brought into action. To my mind it is all down to the rider.
 
Good morning posters, after a long sleepless night thinking about the swales bit I am back:) (only joking I slept like a log and snored like a pig)

The debate seems to have moved onto other bits and I think this should be refocused on the swales bit. The question I posed was not should all horses only be ridden in a snaffle but that the swales bit should not be allowed in the show ring.

I would love to debate the Sam Marsh (which in my opinion is equally harsh)bit with fumanchu however I feel this would get this debate off the point.

The swales is a very harsh bit designed to inflict pain on the side of the horses face, in the wrong hands it is cruel. Its use is to wide spread due to "names" being seen using it, and the masses foloowing. If the name don't take a responsible moral lead then the regulators of that disciplin should regulate. Instead we see them product with longer and longer shafts!!


To single out one point from the recent posts and don't take this a s a personal attack.

PucciNPoni said:
Nothing but schooling will really sort that out in the long run...however does that mean she just should not go out showing?

The swales however, is becoming a fashion item.
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No bit should be a substitute for schooling, you should school your horse then show it. Patience is a vurtue and the rewards will be so much greater.
 
antagonist said:
For those on this post who have never seen a Swales bit, it appears on the front cover of the horse and hound this week, except many show producers have them made specially with extended shafts. They were driving bits orginally.

Their action is if you pull on the "snaffle" rein the larger ring will slide inwards and pinch and lift just over the buccal nerve squashing this against the lower jaw. The "curb" rein will have the normal action on the curb chain but will also push the larger rings inwards with added force. The longer the shaft the better the mechanical advantage the more force the more pain.

As one of the post points out they are favoured in the show ring because a small hand action can have a dramatic effect.

They are a very harsh bit (as is a sam marsh). If your horse is not well mannered they should be schooled.

I am sure if used with very light hands then they will not inflict pain, but if you don't need to use it why is it in your horses mouth.

The problem arises when successful showers appear in these bits, they may well know what they are doing and treat the horse with respect, however less experianced showers then follow their example and misuse the bit.
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Been reading with a hint of vague amusement but seriously had to comment at this point. I also use a range of bits on my show horses. Sam Marsh being one of them which I find that horses with very little room in the mouth relax with this bit due to the "plate" as opposed to a bulky bit in their mouth.

Firstly for anyone wanting to criticise bit and promoting snaffles have you ever tried the nutcracker action of a jointed snaffle on the inside of your elbow? Once my horses are broken and moving towards schooling I will use a rubber pelham as I feel that a snaffle is way to vague for a youngster and a mild pelham gives a much clearer aid for younger horses who don't understand.

Secondly I would use a swales if the horse needed it but I have never had a horse who has yet. I have however had a stand up row with an owner who wanted me to use it as she didn't like the extra bit in her horses mouth. He had an exceptionaly soft mouth and it was just not needed so I refused to use it. (so much for show producers using severe bits for effect)

Thirdly I would like to suggest that all the people who think that a horse should be schooled and mannerly then you wont need a strong bit in the ring have probably never sat on a produced show hunter who knows his job in the big rings. Trust me you need brakes. You are talking abut 17.2 plus heavyweight horse that enjoys their job being asked to gallop on with 30 plus horses. Honestly would you do that in a snaffle on a horse that has enough about it to come anywhere? If you want a go I can lend you a horse who schools beautifully at home in whichever bit snaffle or pelham......
 
Your missing my point. I have no issue with people selecting an appropiate bit.

My issue is the swales which in my opinion is a very harsh bit used in inappriopiate situations because of fashion, a fashion lead by its use by "names" some of whom show the majority of their horses in it. Surely they can not all "need" such a harsh bit.
 
Hi again antagonist

After reading up on the anatomy after all you went to sleep last night (my memory isnt great) i have come the conclusion that bits like this do need to be regulated IN THE RING i do think that if used overly harshly then yes it could cause a great deal of pain
I know this could be said of any other bit but it is obviously easier to be overly harsh in this bit than it is to be in a snaffle!

I dont however have any issue with this bit in the right hands, and can see that it could be an extremely usefull bit for some horses.
I think the bigger issue here is to stop bits becoming "in fashion" and get people more clued up and using a bit which is right for their horse not just because they saw some big name using it.
The sad thing is that not many people do know a lot about bitting which is when bits like this do get into the wrong hands and very very honest ponies and horses put up with it being used in an overly harsh way which in turn promotes the fact that this is all ok.
Like Persephone said it is not the bit that is cruel, it is all down to the rider
 
Rouletterose said:
Antagonist....have at last trawled through this very looooooong thread and I can't imagine anyone wanting to put these contraptions in their horses mouths at any time...Swales is horrible (don't think you'd even get it in my horses mouth as it's huuuuuge) and the Sam marsh looks equally revolting, whether in experienced hands or not.

.
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I can't say anything about SM bits, but the swales I've seen isn't huge. Huge? Really? Mine has got a fine-ish mouthpiece with a low port, barely over a mullen mouth. The shanks are longish, but you needn't use the curb rein. And if the curb is done up properly, it won't move much anyway...(my pet peeve is too loose a curb chain/strap where hte mouthpiece rotates more than 45 degrees).
 
rushyj said:
Secondly I would use a swales if the horse needed it but I have never had a horse who has yet. I have however had a stand up row with an owner who wanted me to use it as she didn't like the extra bit in her horses mouth. He had an exceptionaly soft mouth and it was just not needed so I refused to use it. (so much for show producers using severe bits for effect)

.....
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I dear say this owner saw it used by a name, thought I'll get a bit :) of that.

They came across you and the horse was spared, I feel that this is not always the case. thus the need for refulation.
 
I totally agree but sadly the show producers make educated choices on which bits they use in the ring for the safety of themselves and the judges but they cannot be held accountable for what other people choose to use. The judges will certainly mention it if they think a horse is over bitted not to mention the fact an over bitted horse that is in pain will react and cetrtainly would not go round the ring in an exceptable manner so you can assume that the bit is not being activated.
 
i can see their place with strong horses in certain situations - esp where a light contact = control vs a strong contact in a softer bit... ie i'd rather team chase/hunt a "nutter" (for want of a better word - you catch my drift though ;)) safely in a bit i could use a soft contact with max affect than a bit i had to haul on as a few seconds of fighting could literally be fatal - or the example used eariler for a reschooling case that clearly worked well...
but i must admit that for showing (as in thread title) i'd rather see an exceptionally well schooled horse in a double or simple pelham - surely that's the point of it?!
i recently did a local show and did ridden horse, leisure horse and hunter - i came 4th in ridden horse in a show pelham - then 2nd in leisure horse in a snaffle - then 1st in ridden hunter back in my show pelham - the judges actually made the point of coming over and saying how nice it was to see a horse go as well in a snaffle as a pelham - i do ALL my schooling in the snaffle (mullen so v similar to pelham) and really only use the pelham for correct dress - to do ridden or working hunter my horse has to go well for ride judges - so i have worked my ass off to have her as a very well schooled easy horse to ride... i'd rather put in that time and effort and be proud of the horse i've produced than stick her in a strong bit as a quick fix
but then again what do i know - i've only done local showing ;)

ETA - thread has moved on a bit since i started taht - i'd like to add i hunt my horse in a mullen snaffle with a cavesson - nothing else - so yes - i could - and have - held my show/working hunter at a stand still in a snaffle with all other horse galloping off around her if needed - i would not expect any less of her and would class not being able to hold her as bad manners or bad riding on my behalf - she's a hunter before a show horse - so she's been raised in the hunt field - so manybe that's the difference....
 
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Posie_honey I totally agree with you and in the top level of showing you will see horses that have been schooled to the enth degree and the missleading outdated thought that show horses are not really that schooled and gadgets and bits are used to get the look and the out line is frankly wrong.

These horses take hours a day to produce at the end of the day in now other sport do you put a judge on the horse to ride. I wonder how many dressage horses would stand up to that kind of scrutiny. Put it this way i used to live very close to a one of the top dressage yards in the country where the horses were advanced or higher beautifully schooled and every week they used to take them out for their weekly hack which used to shut the roads down as the rodeoed down the road going absolutely ballistic, but they where the top of the dressage world. I wonder how they would have got on in a hunter class.
 
Sorry I am still clutching my ribs from Silverspring's comment earlier!!!

Oh Silverspring you cruel opressor of horses - you MOUNT your horse? You dare to straddle it? Wicked, wicked person!

My own dear Shamanic Wind lives on an open moor and only when I feel him psychically 'reach out' to me, do I tune in to him. I align with his chakras and find it brings me great energy, and I also ask him for a few lottery numbers too. He clearly eschews my crass consumerism though as they are often wrong.

What amazing lessons we can learn from these sacred beasts.
 
To everyone asking if I have seen a Swales bit, yes I have.....

Snaffle bit....covers a huge range not just the single jointed nutcracker action(which I never use).

My horses go in KK ultra, RS Dynamic etc.

My main point here is that some posters have pointed out that they are on huge, fit strong hunters for example, but what about the huge, fit, powerful dressage horses at the same equivalent level? these horses are allowed doubles but only of a certain severity, and these are checked before they compete or after in some cases.

So would someone explain to me why show people need bits like the Swales when dressage people manage superbly without......on brilliantly schooled horses.

In answer also to what another poster said....dressage horses also 'know' their job. Sorry showing people but if your horses are mannerly and very well schooled then they don't need these bits.

Antagonist also says that top judges are already concerned and commenting......that speaks volumes.....maybe they should voice their concerns a bit more.
 
Ok I suggest a ride off. 1 ring with 30 show hunters and another with 30 dressage horses all of them in snaffles. We then ride a group then we count the number of bodies after the judge calls the rings to gallop on....
 
antagonist said:
Your missing my point. I have no issue with people selecting an appropiate bit.

My issue is the swales which in my opinion is a very harsh bit used in inappriopiate situations because of fashion, a fashion lead by its use by "names" some of whom show the majority of their horses in it. Surely they can not all "need" such a harsh bit.
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In theory I agree,but we saw the same problem with the 3 ring gag(and still do to a degree) and ear covers ect ect to the end of a seemingly neverending list.
Anyone who IS at the top of their game should not feel they have their choices restricted by what some muppet not as far along their riding career will do.

The way to stop abuse of bits(and everything else) is to crack on with education and hammer home the message that you must choose what is right for you and your horse regardless of what others are doing.
And thats the point really,use of any bit is fine if done for the right reasons by a rider with decent hands.Abuse is a different matter.

ETA-Have enjoyed this,been a long time since we had a decent debate without it all kicking off,look forard to the next topic Antagonist
 
Sorry to clarify meaning dressage horses of a similar level to the show hunters level ie national level......
 
Erm - one major difference. Dressage horses only canter as a group during prize givings. I happen to recall MANY prize givings at dressage where these wonderfully schooled horses rear, buck, plunge as they cannot be ridden in a group situation.

Then take up to 30 17hh plus horses all GALLOPING at the same time in an enclosed space (generally NOT on a surface) - and you still think that the two are comparable?
 
rushyj said:
Ok I suggest a ride off. 1 ring with 30 show hunters and another with 30 dressage horses all of them in snaffles. We then ride a group then we count the number of bodies after the judge calls the rings to gallop on....
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Far better put than my contribution! There IS no comparison.
 
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