Improving leisure horse welfare

[ycbm]

The sad fact is most farm livestock are being cared for their welfare better than a lot of equines kept on a DIY livery yard with little exercise or turnout.

Most? Living in the middle of farming country I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.
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[humblepie]

Not a leisure horse but H & H write up on one of Charlotte Dujardin's winter champions is that she is the one horse they cannot turn out. She is worked and hand grazed. I am sure she gets plenty of down time and chill out time but how many leisure riders would get told that of course they can turn the horse out, just need to do x and y.

 

[honetpot]

H
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.

There are problems but they can be solved, they are usually due to lack of management.
The New Forest where the herds are managed stallions are taken off and only out for a short covering season. Where you have entires fighting for a mare in season, NF stallions have their own area, and young fillies left out to be covered, there will be welfare issues.
Some animals are dumped in areas of Wales, I have a pony from the WRP, it was wandering the roads as a foal with its dam, rounded up by the police and appears to have some Arab blood. Unfortunately it has terrible confirmation and its doubtful you could ride it, but it literally is street wise. Apart from its poor confirmation it has no health issues and has developed normally.
There is a Welsh Hill Pony Improvement Society, but unfortunately they haven't got the powers that the NF Verderers have. https://www.verderers.org.uk/

 

[Caol Ila]

As an aside, I've gotten both sides of the feral/hill pony question since my ex-feral Highland came into my life. I have talked to assorted people who have been involved with his herd. No one has any doubts that the first round-up, in 2011, was necessary. Apparently someone wanted to do a long distance ride, with an intended route passing through the estate, but she'd heard that the owner, who used to breed Highlands, had a stallion. They contacted the owner, who evidently said something like, "I have many stallions." This eventually led to World Horse Welfare studying the herd. The welfare issue wasn't that the horses were feral and unhandled, but rather that there were too many stallions and too little space (it's a big estate, but it's not the American West), and there was a significant amount of violence and aggression. WHW rounded up the horses, gelded everything they could, and held an auction. About 30-40 were sold, and the remaining 60 (including my horse, as a weanling-age colt) went back to the estate and continued to be wild.

Then it gets controversial. Foinavon, along with 17 other adult geldings was rounded up in 2018. The person in charge of the round-up bought the horses for cheap from the estate owner and then tried to sell them on. She told me she did it for "horse welfare." She thought the horses were being neglected and wanted to save as many as she could. Other people, who have been monitoring the herd since 2011, allege that she had financial motives and thought gentling and selling ex-ferals would be easy money. They argue that it did not improve welfare at all -- in fact, it arguably made life worse for those 18 ponies -- since the horses were traumatized by the round-up and most ended up with people who had no clue how to gentle a feral adult horse. And not all were suitable for taming. One of the horses had been a band stallion (and I guess was now a band gelding), and he escaped, ran loose in the Borders, then was caught and returned to his mares on the estate. As far as these ladies know, Fin is the only one of those 18 horses who is actually ridable.

Was the second round-up of these feral, 'neglected' horses good for their welfare? They are not starving (I've seen photos of them) but they not getting 'care' as we understand it. No worming, no foot trimming, no vet, nada. But when the herd is adapted to the environment and at a sustainable population, then living in family groups with the freedom to roam as they please is as natural as it gets. Especially when that's all they've ever known.

 

[ycbm]

Unfortunately controlled studies require animals being stressed, do we really want animals stressed to prove that equines need to prove that they need the five freedoms?

• Freedom from hunger and thirst. ...
• Freedom from discomfort. ...
• Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...
• Freedom from distress and fear. ...
• Freedom to express natural behaviour.

There's no need for the testing conditions to be any other than are already being experienced by thousands of horses. No additional stress would be required.


My alternative take on the 5 freedoms

• Freedom from hunger and thirst.

OK

• Freedom from discomfort. ...

How can we guarantee this and also ride? I think this freedom is incompatible with ever sitting on their backs.

• Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...

That freedom is impossible to give. At the very least it needs "avoidable" added to it and then we can argue all day about whether ringworm even matters and how avoidable tendon strains are in ridden horses.

• Freedom from distress and fear. ...

That freedom is also impossible to offer to a flight animal. Some horses will be distressed and fearful over the most minor changes in their environment. Again it needs "avoidable" added and then again we can argue all day about whether someone's change of livery that upsets their horse for a month was avoidable because they did it to save money or get better facilities.

• Freedom to express natural behaviour.

That freedom depends entirely on what is defined as "natural". It would include the freedom to be bitten by flies, kicked by horses, chilled to the bone by winter rain, bored witess by inactivity .... "Natural" is not synonymous with "desirable".
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[honetpot]

Most? Living in the middle of farming country I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.
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I have been on a fair number of farms and DIY livery yards, and apart from the grazing usually being far too rich for equines, farms animals are cared for well. Good stock make money, poor stock cause vet bills and sell badly. With cattle your premises are inspected unannounced, and depending on your TB area the vet has to visit your yard.
Just like poor horse keepers there are poor farmers, but there is one thing that helps put pressure on poor farmers, if they are sold through a ring others will see, and if it goes for slaughter and its lame the vet will see and it gets rejected.They even get less money if they are dirty.
How many times have you looked a horse out at an event, they are usually too fat, can be lame, but nothing is done and yet it is still expected to work?

 

[smolmaus]

This stuff happens in the wild too though, and it's not an act of cruelty or neglect it's just what happens with animals sometimes. So are you saying you don't agree with allowing horses to be wild?

There aren't many breeds of horses that are suitable to be kept "wild" anymore. Most breeds have been altered by humans in at least some ways to make them suitable for work and those alterations can mean there is no truly adequate environment for them to be wild and healthy. As Gloi and Caol Ila have mentioned, there is always management required to prevent suffering of some kind, be that overcrowding, too little forage, too much forage, overbreeding etc.

If there was a truly untouched wild population of horses (not introduced to the environment but properly adapted to it, and not just feral domestic ponies) I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with some of them dying or being injured due to "natural" causes but if humans are going to use these animals or claim any sort of ownership they also have a responsibility to prevent unnecessary suffering as far as reasonably possible.

 

[honetpot]

There's no need for the testing conditions to be any other than are already being experienced by thousands of horses. No additional stress would be required.


My alternative take on the 5 freedoms

• Freedom from hunger and thirst.

OK

• Freedom from discomfort. ...

How can we guarantee this and also ride? I think this freedom is incompatible with ever sitting on their backs.

• Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...

That freedom is impossible to give. At the very least it needs "avoidable" added to it and then we can argue all day about whether ringworm even matters and how avoidable tendon strains are in ridden horses.

• Freedom from distress and fear. ...

That freedom is also impossible to offer to a flight animal. Some horses will be distressed and fearful over the most minor changes in their environment. Again it needs "avoidable" added and then again we can argue all day about whether someone's change of livery that upsets their horse for a month was avoidable because they did it to save money or get better facilities.

• Freedom to express natural behaviour.

That freedom depends entirely on what is defined as "natural". It would include the freedom to be bitten by flies, kicked by horses, chilled to the bone by winter rain, bored witess by inactivity .... "Natural" is not synonymous with "desirable".
.

You seem to think that its a straight turn our 24/7 v in a stable argument, when really in all of life you mitigate risk, and if possible adapt your actions to what the animal works best for them.
At a most basic level we are all animals, and we react to situations on instinct, when stressed it's instinctive to go towards others for comfort. A lot of equine problems, and some human ones as well, are caused by lack of contact, one thing lock down has taught us is that we need social interaction for our mental welfare. Is it not a good idea to think what will keep an equines mind healthy, before we ask it to do anything else that adds stress, and where we need to mitigate the effects of those stresses?

 

[Caol Ila]

There aren't many breeds of horses that are suitable to be kept "wild" anymore. Most breeds have been altered by humans in at least some ways to make them suitable for work and those alterations can mean there is no truly adequate environment for them to be wild and healthy. As Gloi and Caol Ila have mentioned, there is always management required to prevent suffering of some kind, be that overcrowding, too little forage, too much forage, overbreeding etc.

If there was a truly untouched wild population of horses (not introduced to the environment but properly adapted to it, and not just feral domestic ponies) I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with some of them dying or being injured due to "natural" causes but if humans are going to use these animals or claim any sort of ownership they also have a responsibility to prevent unnecessary suffering as far as reasonably possible.

Yes -- even the mustangs in the US are managed. It's incredibly controversial because no one can agree on the right number of horses needed to maintain a sustainable, genetically diverse, but not overcrowded population. Everyone has an agenda, from the horse welfare advocates who don't think the herds should be touched at all, to the ranchers who would happily see the mustangs disappear forever. And nevermind that they are an introduced species -- although horse advocates argue that they fill the ecological niche once occupied by bison, which are now extinct in the West. It's a mess.

That said, the mustangs are well adapted, for sure. When they're not being culled or captured, the population definitely increases. And the environment is not easy. Most live in the deserts of Utah, Nevada, Colorado, although some populations are in more mountaineous areas, like Montana.

 

[ycbm]

I have been on a fair number of farms and DIY livery yards, and apart from the grazing usually being far too rich for equines, farms animals are cared for well. Good stock make money, poor stock cause vet bills and sell badly. With cattle your premises are inspected unannounced, and depending on your TB area the vet has to visit your yard.
Just like poor horse keepers there are poor farmers, but there is one thing that helps put pressure on poor farmers, if they are sold through a ring others will see, and if it goes for slaughter and its lame the vet will see and it gets rejected.They even get less money if they are dirty.
How many times have you looked a horse out at an event, they are usually too fat, can be lame, but nothing is done and yet it is still expected to work?

Beef cattle are normally kept crowded in a barn deep bedded for 6 or more months of the year. Beef cattle sold in winter (edt) can have to have (end edt) P have the caked on muck pressure washed off at the auction site, I've watched them do it. Sheep are routinely lame. Cows often but less than sheep. Lambs are castrated and de-tailed without anaesthetic (they say ringing doesn't hurt but you can see it often does and some farmers are unconcerned about meeting the age deadline to do it). Stuck calves are pulled out with a ratchet, some cows have routine C sections.

Etc. Etc.

Nobody can convince me that most farmed animals are better kept than leisure horses, sorry.
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[ycbm]

You seem to think that its a straight turn our 24/7 v in a stable argument,

Nowhere in the post you have quoted have I said that.

 

[chocolategirl]

Issues in leisure horse welfare come up frequently on here, but I very rarely see people offering suggestions on how these issues could be improved upon rather than just criticising the industry as a whole whilst having horses of their own. So I thought I'd start a thread on it.

For me, one of the biggest issues is lack of turnout. I think an increase in surfaced track liveries could help with this, especially given growing obesity concerns, and encouraging movement in smaller turnout areas with a lot of mud. But, above all, I don’t think a livery that can’t provide proof of horses having access to turnout all year round should be able to be BHS approved. (Personally, I’d want rules on turnout to be much stricter, but appreciate that such a change would have to be gradual).

Then there’s a major issue as regards owner education. I don’t know what would be the right way to address this - perhaps needing to pass an exam as came up in France - but things I think no one should be permitted to own a horse without knowing include:

• Equine behaviour: e.g. the discomfort ethogram, why the 3Fs are as important as they are, the fact that dominance is BS, basic equine cognition as well
• Easily recognisable signs of whether a saddle fits the horse and the rider
• Alongside basic first aid and recognising signs of disease, knowing some frequent issues that cause ‘bad behaviour’ (e.g. PSSM)
• Recognising a slightly lame horse; not just knowing that head bobbing = lame

What else would people add?

Haven’t read the other replies but here goes, for me at least, I’d like to see more turnout, a lot more in fact, I truly believe this is a major welfare issue, less rugging, less feeding of commercial feed for leisure horses and more exercise, regulation or licensing of livery yards, more use of physios, saddle fitters etc, think that about covers it ?

 

[paddy555]

H
Have a look at what this look at what this and other rescue groups are dealing with on a regular basis.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/welshrehomingproject/?ref=share
In the last few days they've taken in a few day old foal ,found without its mother and an underweight 2yo with foal at foot and these are not the only group dealing with this sort of situation.

that is what happens when horses live as close to their natural environment as possible. Sh1t happens.

It is very sad. The foal's mother could have been killed or could simply have died. That doesn't mean that semi feral horses are poorly treated etc. People die in or after child birth, animals as well.
In a feral herd a stallion is going to have a go at a very young horse and they will get in foal. That is nature.

It is fine people complaining about leisure horse welfare and management but then equally objecting when they live as ferals and nature dishes out harsh treatment.

Rescue groups only deal with this and it only comes to people's attention as people find these foals and the like. In nature it would happen and no one would have found the foal. It's mother had died, the foal wouldn't thrive and would be dinner. Crows would be the first to arrive and peck it's eyes out even if it was still alive ( as they do with sheep on their backs) then a fox would turn up plus a lot of birds all ready for their dinner.

 

[paddy555]

"Hill ponies" (and herds of coloured cobs) can be kept with fewer compromises to the 5 freedoms regarding space to move, company and a more natural environment but that doesn't necessarily mean they ARE kept with fewer compromises in general. The nature of them being generally unhandled means health problems can be harder to spot, they might not get the farriery they need, or the dental work. A catastrophic injury like a broken leg might not be picked up for days or weeks. I'm sure it is being done right by some people but I have also seen it done very badly indeed, where the ponies in question would undoubtedly be better off in a yard with daily care, even if they are then more restricted. "Natural is best" has to come with some caveats.

I'm not sure of your experience in semi feral hill ponies. They don't have dental work, health care and the real biggie here which is worming of youngstock etc etc. Some are poor because of that. Totally true. None of that is possible for semi feral ponies and handling most certainly isn't. Do you have a any idea of the amount of ground they live on? Unless they come down to within site of the roads or a walker or rider happens to see one there is no way their injuries would be spotted. Should every hill pony be regularly handled?

Is nature itself not adhering to the 5 freedoms?

 

[alexomahony]

Definitely turn out. I'm in East Yorkshire, I know its flat so it floods but there is basically nowhere within a reasonable distance of me that does 24/7 turnout. Nowhere. My horse hates being stabled but there's simply nowhere I can move her to. I can't afford to buy my own land and even if I could there's nothing available.

I'm considering selling her, not because I don't like her but because I can't provide her with the life she needs.

Hey - dm me where you are. we have potentially have a space at the yard I'm at in East Yorks and we have 24/7 T/O April - Nov and full days (7:30 - 5:30 for my ponies) in the worst parts of winter. It's the best I can find

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm not sure of your experience in semi feral hill ponies. They don't have dental work, health care and the real biggie here which is worming of youngstock etc etc. Some are poor because of that. Totally true. None of that is possible for semi feral ponies and handling most certainly isn't. Do you have a any idea of the amount of ground they live on? Unless they come down to within site of the roads or a walker or rider happens to see one there is no way their injuries would be spotted. Should every hill pony be regularly handled?

Is nature itself not adhering to the 5 freedoms?

This sort of thing is where the five freedoms fall down for me- I know a lot of people see them as a gold standard for animal welfare (and to some extent they are) but they are also contradictory within themselves, and in real life you usually have to choose something to prioritise.

I'd say that hill ponies (at least the ones I'm most familiar with on Bodmin and Dartmoor) do well on the freedom to express natural behaviours front- obviously better than domestically kept horses. Most have decent access to food and water for the vast majority of the year (occasionally in very harsh winters this can be an issue, but I also know some keepers will put hay out for them etc).

However, I'd say they have freedom from pain, injury or disease for the reasons you discuss- in general, this is where leisure horses do better. I don't think they always have freedom from discomfort, for various reasons.

I actually think freedom from fear and distress is a very difficult goal for a prey animal especially. Horses are going to feel fear at the introduction of novel stimuli into their environment, and I don't think that can be avoided for feral or domestically kept horses (except that domestically kept horses can gain trust in a human which can help them overcome fear in a lot of situations). Sometimes the fear and distress is essential to prevent further suffering e.g. from disease.

 

[Caol Ila]

I wonder what my horse would say if you asked him which lifestyle he prefers - feral or domestic. I really do! Maybe I need to find an animal communicator.

 

[Kaylum]

A friend of mine keeps hers in the back garden of her council house. She has a stables they made themselves, lots of them have a pony in her street kept the same way (this is west yorkshire btw not Ireland). They get lunged in the local park, tethered or turned out in a makeshift field, ridden everyday, bomb proof. She was saying that a girl she knew went out for a ride with them on her skittish horse that had never seen a dustbin lorry and threw her off whilst they just walked past as they saw them everyday. They dont wear tack much or bother with hats. Now are they keeping their horses the wrong way? Compared to someone who keeps their horse in a stable, over feeds it on lush grass and cereals that they have read about is good for them, lets it get overweight without exercise, has tack on that doesnt always fit, gets brushed to within an inch of its life and is never allowed to get dirty so has a rug on all year round. Is that natural behaviour? Every horse and situation is different.

 

[rabatsa]

Beef cattle are normally kept crowded in a barn deep bedded for 6 or more months of the year. Beef cattle sold in winter have the caked on muck pressure washed off at the auction site, I've watched them do it. Sheep are routinely lame. Cows often but less than sheep. Lambs are castrated and de-tailed without anaesthetic (they say ringing doesn't hurt but you can see it often does and some farmers are unconcerned about meeting the age deadline to do it). Stuck calves are pulled out with a ratchet, some cows have routine C sections.

Etc. Etc.

Nobody can convince me that most farmed animals are better kept than leisure horses, sorry.
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I have been involved with livestock farming for all my life.

Those beef cattle in deep littered yards/barns have a social life with the others, can move around and interact with each other. There are housing guidelines for minimum space per animal. They get nearly ad lib forage and water every day along with fresh bedding. Compare this with the leisure horses stuck in a 12'x12' stable all winter with minimal social contact with other horses. Many tied up outside the stable for skipping out during the week and only a full muck out at weekends. Only ridden at weekends and even then not always with another horse. Many yards do not have any winter turnout of any sort.

Most of the sh1t washed off at the mart is the liquid crap that has been plastered on during transport. The solid muck buttons do not power wash off, any our cattle had were removed with a curry comb before we took them. The worst muck buttons I have seen were on a pony that came to stay with us one year, and it took nearly a month to get rid of them all.

I have sheep and I have lame sheep. Unfortunately sheep were originally a dry country animal and wet ground = sore feet. I am sure I have heard of this self same problem with horses feet. The problem bacteria live in soil. Grass will abraid the area between a sheeps two toes as they walk, dew on the grass softens the skin and the bacteria enters causing scald, the sheep equivalent of mud fever in horses. Sheep are grown for the meat trade, a lame sheep does not fatten so treatment is needed and generally given. However in a field with 200 sheep in it and lame sheep seen by the public, it is often not the same sheep seen week in week out but different sheep, to the lay person it may appear to be the same sheep all the time.

Cattle are prone to getting foot problems due to the way hooves grow, as do horses. The acid in cattle wee is very bad for cow feet and unfortunately cows do stand in wee while waiting their turn to enter the milking parlour. Ring feeders in fields are also an area that gets a lot of wee so cattle in fields suffer the same problems. Regular attention by a hoof trimmer can help matters but it is a stressful business for them as no-one picks up a cows feet every day.

Banding lambs testicles and tails before 7 days of age is legal. This is breed dependant though as the breed I keep do not get their tails done (breed standard). Tails are done for welfare reasons as they do get covered in sh1t, especially with nice lush grass. A sh1tty tail is paradise for flies to lay their eggs on and then the sheep will get flystrike, where it is eaten alive by maggots. My sheep have to have their tails trimmed every two weeks at this time of year, only possible because I have small numbers of sheep. Quick growing meat lambs do not all get banded testicles as they are eaten before they become sexually mature. Small primitve breeds frequently do not have anything that can be banded when first born, as the testicles are too small to trap in the scrotum.

Calves being born using a calving jack when used correctly is far better then just using ropes and people on the end of them. With the jack the calf does not slip back inside when better hand holds are sought and if only ratcheted as the cow strains, is no more stressfull than natural calving. Anyone who has had to endure a forcep birth will know that such things are not used willy nilly but do make delivery better.

Pure bred double muscled beef breeds do often have c sections but these breeds are used as terminal sires on other breeds, these cattle do not require the c sections.

There are bad practices in all walks of life and I do not claim that all farmers are angels however to say all are bad is like saying anyone who keeps a horse is bad.

 

[stangs]

You are missing the point. You are assuming a 'one size fits all' approach to horse management in the way YOU would keep your horses. In reality horses have different needs (metabolic issues, behavioural issues if turned out, etc.) owners have different needs, every area in the UK has different geography and geology (all year turnout if your fields are on a flood plain might be a challenge), weather, etc.

Perhaps there’s been a miscommunication. You’ll note that in my OP, I wrote all year turnout, meaning access to turnout throughout the year, not 24/7 turnout all year round - and specifically mentioned surface tracks as a way of minimising mud and access to grass for horse that can't cope with it. I agree that not all horses can manage a lot of turnout. But many horses who get no turnout in the winter will have had turnout in the summer, so the issue isn't that they can't have turnout. And stabling prevents horses from interacting with other horses and expressing natural behaviours like grooming.

As for riding school horses - how long have you been teaching RS clients? I'm not sure putting a novice rider on a highly tuned, forward thinking and reactive horse is safe - in the same way that men who buy Ferraris seem to crash them within 1/2 mile.

Oh dear, you’ve just made a strawman’s argument. I would have thought it goes without saying that there is a huge spectrum between intensely school sour horse that needs constant kicking and being chased by a lunge whip to trot and a reactive, highly schooled animal.

Am waiting very patiently, Shilas, oh wise one who worked at a riding college, to hear what ideas you have?

Horses like this must be allowed for. The law to do so would be so ridiculously complicated it would never work, imo.

...do you have any ideas then?

• Freedom to express natural behaviour.

That freedom depends entirely on what is defined as "natural". It would include the freedom to be bitten by flies, kicked by horses, chilled to the bone by winter rain, bored witess by inactivity .... "Natural" is not synonymous with "desirable".

In everything you’ve described, the horse is a passive participant. None of what you’ve listed is a behaviour. Being “bored witess by inactivity” isn’t natural either, given the amount of territory feral equines roam.

That said, the mustangs are well adapted, for sure. When they're not being culled or captured, the population definitely increases. And the environment is not easy. Most live in the deserts of Utah, Nevada, Colorado, although some populations are in more mountaineous areas, like Montana.

Fertility treatment's also becoming marginally more common, thanks to charities who know what they're doing. But, above all, mountain lion predation would also help manage the population levels of mustangs and burros in the Great Basin, if only they weren't getting culled by people too...

Mustangs also benefit from the hard ground. The main welfare issue I see in cobs that have been let loose is the overgrown feet, as the terrain on commons in the winter isn't going to keep them particularly short.

 

[paddy555]

I have been on a fair number of farms and DIY livery yards, and apart from the grazing usually being far too rich for equines, farms animals are cared for well. Good stock make money, poor stock cause vet bills and sell badly. With cattle your premises are inspected unannounced, and depending on your TB area the vet has to visit your yard.
Just like poor horse keepers there are poor farmers, but there is one thing that helps put pressure on poor farmers, if they are sold through a ring others will see, and if it goes for slaughter and its lame the vet will see and it gets rejected.They even get less money if they are dirty.
How many times have you looked a horse out at an event, they are usually too fat, can be lame, but nothing is done and yet it is still expected to work?

farm animals are well cared for? spluttered into my coffee at that one.

There are 4 farms around me. The welfare on 2 is excellent. The welfare on the other two is abysmal. One fined for animal welfare. As for pressure on them they don't give a damn.

 

[YorksG]

A lot of the problems with lack of turnout etc, could be eradicated if livery prices were realistically expensive. If the old arrangement of an acre per horse, plus one, was to be kept to, then turnout would be much more achievable, that would however cost more than most people are prepared to pay. That along with unsuitable land being used, is part of the issue.

 

[smolmaus]

I'm not sure of your experience in semi feral hill ponies. They don't have dental work, health care and the real biggie here which is worming of youngstock etc etc. Some are poor because of that. Totally true. None of that is possible for semi feral ponies and handling most certainly isn't. Do you have a any idea of the amount of ground they live on? Unless they come down to within site of the roads or a walker or rider happens to see one there is no way their injuries would be spotted. Should every hill pony be regularly handled?

Is nature itself not adhering to the 5 freedoms?

I only have direct experience of feral herds in environments they are completely unsuited for. They have originated from domestic ponies who have been dumped and allowed to breed, which does colour my view. It's a pretty hideous situation all round tbh.

The last time I spoke about it I got some very useful info on managed semi-feral herds who do have people keeping an eye on them and have enough "handling" they can be herded in and get vet care if necessary. I think that is the ideal situation. If a landowner has "feral" ponies on their land (and there was also a discussion a while back about subsidies landowners recieved for having them in some areas) I think there is a responsibility to keep them healthy and safe.

The 5 freedoms directly apply to "kept" animals, so no, it doesn't apply to truly wild ones. But even very feral horses are not truly wild, their breed has been developed with human interference and we also probably control where they are and restrict any migration that might occur if they weren't in some respects "owned". So the 5 freedoms do apply, with reasonable caveats that I suppose would be individual to the situation.

 

[Wishfilly]

I only have direct experience of feral herds in environments they are completely unsuited for. They have originated from domestic ponies who have been dumped and allowed to breed, which does colour my view. It's a pretty hideous situation all round tbh.

The last time I spoke about it I got some very useful info on managed semi-feral herds who do have people keeping an eye on them and have enough "handling" they can be herded in and get vet care if necessary. I think that is the ideal situation. If a landowner has "feral" ponies on their land (and there was also a discussion a while back about subsidies landowners recieved for having them in some areas) I think there is a responsibility to keep them healthy and safe.

The 5 freedoms directly apply to "kept" animals, so no, it doesn't apply to truly wild ones. But even very feral horses are not truly wild, their breed has been developed with human interference and we also probably control where they are and restrict any migration that might occur if they weren't in some respects "owned". So the 5 freedoms do apply, with reasonable caveats that I suppose would be individual to the situation.

I think there is a difference between abandoned ponies and places where ponies have lived feral for generations.

FWIW, I do think that owners of hill ponies should take responsibility for their welfare, and there have been times when welfare becomes poor and charities have had to step in locally (as I say, during very hard winters this is most common- we don't normally get much snow here, so when we do it can be a bit of an issue!). But equally that can happen with leisure horses, and many ponies on the moor appear healthy (although there are still risks, such as being hit by a car at night where they are able to wander onto roads). Equally, there are areas where strangles is known to be rife, which is a really problem for all sorts of reasons (and ironically presents a risk to non feral horses as well).

However, I think the 5 freedoms contradict themselves when applied to feral ponies- to give them any kind of vet treatment, there ends up being a level of distress. If they were to be handled more, they'd generally have to be kept in a much smaller area- and then you get into issues of overstocking etc etc etc.

I totally agree that owners have duties of care to these ponies, and the way this is applied is hugely variable (just as it is between leisure horse owners).

 

[SEL]

I haven't read the whole thread - but pretty much every horse owner you'll meet will have a different view on what constitutes 'good welfare'

We all know to report the starving horse, but not the morbidly obese one. Are shoes the greater evil when a barefoot horse is sore? Is it better to restrict turnout if it means each and every horse will get 'some' time outside? What do you do about the one with mud fever? Most people wouldn't rug a horse in 17 degrees but what do you do if you know its dropping to 5 overnight and your horse has PSSM (that was a genuine dilemma!)? I chose not to take the microcob back to have her check ligament rescanned and threw her in the field - potentially a welfare issue right there.

I like the Swiss attempt to set some guidelines because at least it sets a baseline for standards.

I don't honestly know what the answer is, but I feel the same about dogs. We've got some horrendously (un)trained ones around here and have had another dog bite reported locally - I'm forever saying there should be some kind of restriction on dog keeping.

 

[paddy555]

The last time I spoke about it I got some very useful info on managed semi-feral herds who do have people keeping an eye on them and have enough "handling" they can be herded in and get vet care if necessary. I think that is the ideal situation. If a landowner has "feral" ponies on their land (and there was also a discussion a while back about subsidies landowners recieved for having them in some areas) I think there is a responsibility to keep them healthy and safe.

The 5 freedoms directly apply to "kept" animals, so no, it doesn't apply to truly wild ones. But even very feral horses are not truly wild, their breed has been developed with human interference and we also probably control where they are and restrict any migration that might occur if they weren't in some respects "owned". So the 5 freedoms do apply, with reasonable caveats that I suppose would be individual to the situation.

if a landowner has ferals on their land there is a responsibility etc.
The Duke of Cornwall owns 67 thousand acres of Dartmoor. Will this really work?

South west water own thousands of acres as do the forestry commission and the MOD.

They don't have handling. They are wild to all intents and purposes. When they are gathered to chip them they go through the cattle crush.
If one breaks a leg a long way from a road that will be it. OTOH presuming a pony is seen/found and stays in one place long enough to be found again (not always very easy) then is driving it in a herd (which is fast) a long distance to put it through a cattle crush in it's best interests? Even if you go looking for them they hide themselves very easily or you cannot see them in the mist.

It is not a question of they are truly wild, semi feral, who owns them or the land or even about responsibility. They were born there, grew up there and they live the "wild" lifestyle. It is easy to say there is a responsibility to keep them healthy and safe. In practicality that is impossible because of the size of the area they live on and the inaccessibility of some of it.

Is living in a controlled yard where they could get vet treatment etc better for them may be another question. To do that they would have to give up their freedom of choosing their own company, how they live, what they eat, how they deal with the weather and lots of other things. I guess the only way of knowing that would be to ask them which is impossible. Otherwise for all of this we are basing things solely on what our own human view of the situation is.

ETA I suspect the biggest cause of injury and death to the ferals around here is traffic.

 

[tristar]

our horses have access to forage24 7, are turned out everyday, except snow, on grazing, short unfertilized, hard standing or large arena or concrete and gravel, for most of the time 12 to 24 hours, can see or touch others at all times, have no shoes, get entertained by humans, go nice walkies ridden or inhand around the fields and tracks, get ridden do in hand work, loose work, lunging etc

this is what i would tell someone if they asked me, how to go on if they were to buy a horse for leisure and needed and idea of what is involved, i would also say if i could not provide as near to this as poss, i would not want to keep horses, i would be too stressed and worried about their welfare

as it is i am lucky to be able to keep them this way, it is peace of mind for me and they are fit, slim, occupied and settled

 

[Goldenstar]

Freedom from hunger and thirst. ...

Impossible to apply in an acceptable welfare friendly way hunger is a necessary part of correct management for many horse, it’s a part of a truly free horses life as is thirst , while there a few situations where thirst is necessary putting that one into law who result in no horses able to have surgery and if horses needed a drink after hard work the rider would have committed a criminal act .

Freedom from discomfort. ...

Truly Free horses experience discomfort all the time they are too hot too cold troubled by flies etc etc .

Freedom from pain, injury and disease. ...

Eh this one takes the biscuit , you can’t guarantee freedom from injury I have fields that most livery stables can’t dream of providing at the money owners are willing to pay and I still get horse injuries from turnout . If a horse get kicked by a field companion it suffers pain , if a horse sticks it’s head in a hedge and scratches it’s eye it suffers pain but that’s no reason to debate the legality of group turnout and horses have access to hedges for browsing .Disease you can’t guarantee freedom from disease .

Freedom from distress and fear. ...

Horses maybe distressed by many things they have done injections and many other veterinary interventions , Fear hard to define that, H is fears Sky ( who is slightly despotic herd leader ) should he therefore live alone , Free horses experience fear it’s natural response for horses .


Freedom to express natural behaviour.

No castration then ,turn them out let them fight it out .Whoops you have just broken freedom 3 and 4 .


Of course I know that’s not what the freedoms intend but that’s not how law works .
Complicated laws are bad laws and they won’t work .
Laws need to be enforced or they are simply disregarded and then devalued .
Overly simple laws risks causing a rush to bottom .

I do think there ought to be a obligation for YOers need to have a certain level of knowledge or to employ people who do .
Livery yard regulation might help but I was involved years ago when this was being looked at and the sticking point it was the real fear it was going to cause a tsunami of Homeless horses as yards closed .
It was going to end some of the best places people keep their horses , Farms who rent grazing small yards with one livery it was extreme problematic.

I grew up in a non horsy family I learnt from horsy people they where forthright and free with their opinions and time I suspect now a days they might be labelled yard busy bodies .
But they made me what I am .
There’s no return to those days you can’t put genies back in bottles .

 

[Shilasdair]

Apologies for the length of this Stangs - I'm not the best at the quotations function.
My comments in purple below.

Perhaps there’s been a miscommunication. You’ll note that in my OP, I wrote all year turnout, meaning access to turnout throughout the year, not 24/7 turnout all year round - and specifically mentioned surface tracks as a way of minimising mud and access to grass for horse that can't cope with it. I agree that not all horses can manage a lot of turnout. But many horses who get no turnout in the winter will have had turnout in the summer, so the issue isn't that they can't have turnout. And stabling prevents horses from interacting with other horses and expressing natural behaviours like grooming.

If ground is too wet, track systems will not work. And the main reason yards limit or restrict turnout in the winter is because they have to, due to the increased rainfall (climate change) coupled with geography/geology. A more workable plan might be to insist animals have a certain footfall each day (like the recommended 10k steps for humans) which could be ridden/horsewalker, all-weather pen or field.
Stabling doesn't necessary prevent horses from natural behaviours incidentally - it is dependent on the stable design. Mine can touch/groom/share a haynet etc. In many stables, barriers are half-height specifically to allow this.
Conversely, down here, many horses are turned out individually to prevent injury/attachment - so no/little social interaction there. And often the leys are not suitable for equidae.

Oh dear, you’ve just made a strawman’s argument. I would have thought it goes without saying that there is a huge spectrum between intensely school sour horse that needs constant kicking and being chased by a lunge whip to trot and a reactive, highly schooled animal.

From your lack of response to my question regarding how often you have taught in riding schools - I assume you haven't. Again, just because you can't get a RS moving forward doesn't mean the horse doesn't know the aids...
Also - I don't know where you are going for lessons but 'kicking' and 'chasing with a lunge whips' are not methods I've ever used/seen used. You need to find a better quality RS (ask Teapot - she knows a LOT about riding schools).

Am waiting very patiently, Shilas, oh wise one who worked at a riding college, to hear what ideas you have?
...do you have any ideas then?

I'm going to ignore your rudeness- although I note it's the last resort of someone whose arguments lack rigour.
What incidentally is a 'riding college'?
My idea is that people who have no qualifications and no expertise are perhaps not best placed to opine on UK horse owners/keepers and their diverse management choices and needs. I include both of us, in this - as I have quals, but no expertise particularly in welfare, unlike perhaps the RCVS or charities.
If only there was an organisation that brought such experts together....Linky

 

[Wishfilly]

Is living in a controlled yard where they could get vet treatment etc better for them may be another question. To do that they would have to give up their freedom of choosing their own company, how they live, what they eat, how they deal with the weather and lots of other things. I guess the only way of knowing that would be to ask them which is impossible. Otherwise for all of this we are basing things solely on what our own human view of the situation is.

Given there aren't 100s of homes out there suitable for feral/semi feral ponies all in one go, removing them from the moor(s) is impossible anyway- the only solution would be a cull.

In general, I believe the welfare of *most* ponies on the moors in the south west is good enough that a cull isn't a desirable outcome (although indiscriminate breeding isn't a good idea either).

Obviously we would all like horse welfare improved, but there is a huge danger that introducing sudden and strict legislation could have massively unintended consequences.