inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[marmalade76]

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....

 

[skewbald_again]

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....

And furthermore, I believe Alexander the Great may have whopped Bucephelus one quite unnecessarily on the left bank of the Hydaspes, and the poor sod died from his wounds. What are BE going to do about THAT, eh?

 

[amandap]

I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but with all this talk comparing eventing to the GN I just wanted to ask, out of interest, what action would be taken against a jockey if he were to carry on over the last fence and across the finish on an obvoiusly lame horse? AFAIA, Amy Tryon only recieved a two month ban and a fine of between $2 and $3k. I have seen jockeys pull up and jump off horses that weren't obviously lame, yet saw Amy Tryon carry on on a horse that was virtually on three legs. Just interested....

Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing.

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them? That is the point I'm failing to make.

 

[Kal]

Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing.

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them? That is the point I'm failing to make.

Ok so i treat my horse like a fairy, he is 600kg Throughbred cross, i have been feeding him lots because that nice for him. I ride him, he acts a bit silly, i just sit there because i'm not aloud to tell him off, he then starts getting faster thinking he's free, he's bucking and messing around because that what he does when he's free, if i'm still sat on at this point, what do i do.

Or

When he first starts acting silly, give him a slap to remind him he has to work now, he behaves himself, we have a lovely ride. I can turn him out to then go silly. And next time i ride he remembers that it is work time.

I think i'm still treating him with respect and then he will treat me with respect. Horses don't have brains like adult humans, they are more like children so they need telling what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Kal]

Also people don't just buy a horse for thousands then beat it to death, they want a return for there money so that means treating them like a star althete to keep them fit and heathly. The longer they live and heathier they are the more money they will win.

If these people didn't love and respect the horses they would choose another sport to do.

I am getting a sore head now by banging it against a brick wall

 

[amandap]

I don't understand what feeding lots and or slapping him has to do with having rules and teaching him what you want when riding or whatever?

As far as I see it you are trained to think that a slap will produce a good ride, have you ever had a good ride without a slap? If not then I expect it's part of your routine and he's used to it and has come to expect it.
Being fair to me doesn't mean over feeding, 'spoiling' or having no rules etc.

Mta... treating them like a star (in human terms) is that 'love' though? I'm sure most horses are very much loved...

 

[muffinino]

:d :d :d
at the third attempt to edit that to look like three big grins I have given up.
ROFLOL instead.

is : and D if that makes sense

Guess I'll have to quit humping blankies in M & S, then...

 

[Kal]

I don't understand what feeding lots and or slapping him has to do with having rules and teaching him what you want when riding or whatever?

As far as I see it you are trained to think that a slap will produce a good ride, have you ever had a good ride without a slap? If not then I expect it's part of your routine and he's used to it and has come to expect it.
Being fair to me doesn't mean over feeding, 'spoiling' or having no rules etc.

Mta... treating them like a star (in human terms) is that 'love' though? I'm sure most horses are very much loved...

I mentioned the overfeeding bit because that's what most ''do gooders'' think, i know cause there are a lot down my yard. I don't overfeed.

I actually have lots of lovely rides without my whip. I was trying to make a point. I don't actually carry a whip with my horse that i have now because he doesn't need it but the mare a had before did.

She was 17hh. I broken her in very nicely, lovely couple of years, well manered then her teenager years kicked in and she started rearing on the road in front of cars, undangering her, myself and other road users. and a kick and a shout didn't make any difference.

You seem to tar all horses with the same brush.

 

[amandap]

You seem to tar all horses with the same brush.

I don't think I'm tarring horses at all, the opposite in fact. To me horses are generally what we make them or teach them and how we treat them. This of course depends to some extent on their individual personalities. A nervous horse wouldn't respond the same way as a bolder horse so we need to adapt...
the onus being on us humans to adapt imo, we are after all the ones with the brains, so many say.

 

[pip6]

I dream of MT riding one of the eventers we have bred. Congrats on a superb performance.

IMHO racesafe whips should be compulsory at all affiliated horse events (including SJ), which will hopefully then trickle down to unaffiliated where I believe the majority of whip abuse occurs (just go watch a local hunter trial for whip tantrums).

 

[BSJAlove]

havent read any replies.

as a rider, you can feel when your horse needs a reminder. if im a stride out of a jump and the horse losses concentration, im going to tell him to go forwards! and if using a whip gets you out of trouble then so be it.

i personally dont think the whip was over used.

 

[mcnaughty]

Long time ago. But he was well enough schooled to NOT need pulled in the mouth. Its up to us to put brakes on our horses, not just pull on their mouth when the brakes fail.

OMG - you seriously do not know what on earth you are talking about. Stop, rewind and watch the dressage tests they all performed and then come back on here and say that those horses are not well schooled. Also, have any of you that are criticising the riders actually been to Badminton? I very much doubt it or you would be fully aware of the extremely complicated combinations that are part of the course. These jumps are not little piles of sticks, they are enormous and the accuracy that you need to clear them is so precise it takes years of training to get to that level and stay there.

Toddy won it - fantastic - the man took 8 years out and came back to win Badminton and probably secure his place on the NZ olympic team for 2012. Those of you who are criticising him for giving his horse a sharp wake up and shake up have absolutely no idea and should stick to what you know best.....

The optimum time at Badminton is so tight that you need to gallop, collect, jump (sometimes with several complicated and tight turns and bounces) then gallop again onto the next fence - if you seriously think that an ultra fit TB (yes most of them are at least 95% TB) will gallop and then come back without a bit of a fight then you are living in cloud cc land.

 

[Tinkerbee]

I really don't understand how some people were taught to ride
If I faffed around on the approach to a fence, dropped the contact, took my leg off and the horse refused I was told to get it together and ride properly on the second go.
However if I'm riding at it properly and the horse is perfectly capable of physically jumping (ie not lame or overfaced) and puts in a cheeky stop/run out I was told to give him a smack to buck his ideas up and really drive him over the fence next time.

I'm younger than most posters on this thread so who on earth taught them?!

 

[mcnaughty]

Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face. One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!

Read the title of the thread and comment accordingly please -

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

*watches some paint dry*

That is far more interesting than this conversation has got!

Ooooh! The paints at that half dry half wet stage! Woohoo!

 

[Over2You]

Read the title of the thread and comment accordingly please -

I think my comments were bang on topic! If horses react in such a way to whips in racing, then why not in eventing or other horse sports? Or is it going to take an accident (possibly a fatal one) before you pro-whippers question the use of them?

 

[skewbald_again]

I think my comments were bang on topic! If horses react in such a way to whips in racing, then why not in eventing or other horse sports? Or is it going to take an accident (possibly a fatal one) before you pro-whippers question the use of them?

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
Sorry but this is now getting beyond a joke. 'Pro-whippers'???? Next we'll be 'Parelli Deniers'.

what are you TALKING about?

Never in all my long and chequered career have I seen so much crap in one place and I have done a LOT of muckheaps in my time.

 

[MICHAELA8228]

My own opinion is if a rider is balanced and kind to the horse for the whole round, and gives it a good run, and a slap in front of a fence when it's backing off, I think thats completely justified use of the whip. I'm sure horses would far rather have Mark Todd ride them and give them a slap to say 'come on buddy, pick up!!' than someone out of balance and hauling on their mouth for 12 minutes. There are far worse ways to treat a horse than to give it a slap and send it forward. Equally it's far better to smack a tired horse to make it wake up and get over a fence than to leave it alone and have it very honestly have a crack anyway, not pick up and have a rotational fall.[/QUOTE]

Here here!!!

 

[MICHAELA8228]

*watches some paint dry*

That is far more interesting than this conversation has got!

Ooooh! The paints at that half dry half wet stage! Woohoo!

lol!!!! Classic!!

 

[chestnut cob]

Yes, this is what it always comes down to. It's alright because so and so did it or ah, but it's different in racing, show jumping or eventing.

Surely horses are horses and treating them fairly and with respect is what matters across all that we do with them? That is the point I'm failing to make.

But no one has ever said that what Amy Tyron did was right! In fact IIRC people went beserk on HHO about that episode. AT's horse was lame and she failed to notice. Mark Todd's horse was NOT lame, he was getting tired. That horse would have seen a vet as soon as he crossed the XC finish line, and then had to pass the next morning's trot up to get to the SJ. His horse was never lame and was certainly not forced into doing anything.

I don't know how you can suggest MT didn't treat his horse with respect. I really doubt you can force any horse to jump around a 4* course - surely at that level, the horses have to LOVE their job?? I actually think those horses and riders must have the most amazing partnerships to get around safely.

 

[georgiegirl]

*sigh* I really do tire of the 'pony patters' brigade.....

Next you'll be saying mark todd is a horrible human being for putting shoes on his horse and not riding with a wip *** instead

He hardly beat the horse to within an inch of its life - the horse was givin a sharp but fair and well timed reminder for both horse and rider safety.

Hardly looked like a beaten ill treated horse in the showjumping.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I was speaking to eventer friend just now and I couldn't believe how stringent the vet trot ups are! A horse I would pass sound and fit to do it's work and race would get a huge big fat red F at an event for the slightest, tinyiest minutest thing that a normal person wouldn't spot. So if Todd's horse was suffering from adverse effects from being "beaten" then I am pretty sure it would never have passed the trot up.

I'm going back to watching my paint dry now It's nearly done you know! Most of it is now one colour, you can tell the wet bits as they are fractionally darker, not much, but just enough to fail my expert eye of wet and dry paint!

 

[Jesstickle]

a wip *** instead

He he w.o.p is filtered out. I know it's original context isn't nice but I do think it might be useful on a horsey forum given that we use it with another meaning here!

Crazy swear filter!!

 

[georgiegirl]

I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?

 

[amandap]

I don't know how you can suggest MT didn't treat his horse with respect. I really doubt you can force any horse to jump around a 4* course - surely at that level, the horses have to LOVE their job?? I actually think those horses and riders must have the most amazing partnerships to get around safely.

I didn't single anyone out! To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them.

I'm obviously just in a world of my own. I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...'
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously. To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not.

 

[skewbald_again]

I didn't single anyone out! To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them.

I'm obviously just in a world of my own. I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...'
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously. To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not.

That is a valid viewpoint, not however consistent with competing at this level. I think this is where the problem lies.
You can keep a horse and never hit it. I don't think you could guarantee to get round Badminton on it with that approach, though. So basically, if you don't agree that the rider should impose his will on the horse, then you don't agree with eventing, or any other competitive discipline, I would suggest?

 

[Jesstickle]

I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?

It's racist. Google away, nothing dirty. It originally stood for without passport and was a derogatory term for Italians? and other immigrants in America. I think that's right anyway.

 

[chestnut cob]

I must be missing something as I was very confused it was filtered out! I didnt even know it had another meaning! Dare I google it to find out?

Edited what I originally put as someone else posted what it means below!

I thought it was going to be something rude!!

 

[chestnut cob]

I didn't single anyone out! To me whipping any living animal is disrespectful. We constantly ask horses to 'respect' us, stay out of our space, not bite or kick us but it's ok for us the hit them.

I'm obviously just in a world of my own. I don't think it's ok for anyone to hit a horse or another living being, a simple rule for me that stops all the 'ah buts' and 'oh but he/she knows best, 'but in racing or eventing etc. it's ok because...'
Too simple though for experienced, knowlegable riders obviously. To be frank I don't want to learn when it's ok to whip and when it's not.

There is a world of a difference though between beating a horse and giving him a tap as a back up to the aids in front of a jump. I'd rather see a 4* event horse get a tap with a whip before a big fence that watch Linda Parelli battering a horse around the face with the clip of a leadrope to make it stand still...

I've yet to see a Parelli-fied horse who looks like it enjoys life or respects its handler, yet those eventers at Badminton were fit, happy and had bright eyes...

 

[Over2You]

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.
Sorry but this is now getting beyond a joke. 'Pro-whippers'???? Next we'll be 'Parelli Deniers'.

what are you TALKING about?

Never in all my long and chequered career have I seen so much crap in one place and I have done a LOT of muckheaps in my time.

You know fine well what I am talking about! Whipping is completely unnecessary. As Amandap pointed out, it is not okay for a horse to disrespect us, but it is perfectly alright for us to whip them. Natural horse people like Kelly Marks, Chris Cox, Monty Roberts, Richard Maxwell, and Julie Goodnight, prove time after time that there is no need to whip a horse. I am sorry, but there is something wrong if you cannot ride without a whip. I never ride with one and have never had a trust or respect issue. This is because my horse genuinely trusts and respects me. He does not fear me for brandishing a whip, nor do I justify any of his fears by giving him a beating.