Indigo Irish Draughts - please read, a heads up.
- Thread starter Tiddlypom
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Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Listening to professionals in which field? It would seem not to the professionals already involved with the horses.
Rupert2021
Member
The charity
meleeka
Well-Known Member
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
So definitely not independent professionalsThe charity
AmyMay
Situation normal
I can’t see the charity named on the FB page.Hi please refer to the FB post more information on there
So what is it?
ElleSkywalkingintheair
As excited as Kitty about to be a bridesmaid
So to be factual
-Janet left her farm and horses to be made into a charity specialising in PTSD rehab using her horses.
-Janet appointed a non horsey executor
-The idea for Janet's rehab/PTSD charity was deemed non viable
-The executor found a charity to take on the farm, Hopton Rehoming
-Bruce (a fellow Irish draughts breeder well known to Janet) and possibly others offered to buy and help re-home some of the remaining horses by speaking to the charity.
-Janet's staff were dismissed
-The charity advised the non horsey executor to send all the horses as a job lot to a dealer.
Are these the facts?
-Janet left her farm and horses to be made into a charity specialising in PTSD rehab using her horses.
-Janet appointed a non horsey executor
-The idea for Janet's rehab/PTSD charity was deemed non viable
-The executor found a charity to take on the farm, Hopton Rehoming
-Bruce (a fellow Irish draughts breeder well known to Janet) and possibly others offered to buy and help re-home some of the remaining horses by speaking to the charity.
-Janet's staff were dismissed
-The charity advised the non horsey executor to send all the horses as a job lot to a dealer.
Are these the facts?
meleeka
Well-Known Member
It’s on page 2 of this thread.I can’t see the charity named on the FB page.
So what is it?
AmyMay
Situation normal
Got it. Thanks
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
It would be useful to have the facts of this sad sounding case confirmed.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I am no expert in any way shape or form, so could be utter drivel talking.
From writing my own will I was advised animals I own aren’t part of the strict legal part. I could (and did) prepare an expression of wish document that outlines who I want to deal with animals and what my preferred intentions are for those animals but I have a feeling it’s not legally binding.
For a non-horsey executor this sounds like a bit of a nightmare. It involves property, multiple horses, presumably this named charity (but their capacity of involvement / beneficiary is unclear). If a charity is named as the ‘professional’ I’d imagine the executor felt they had little choice but to go with the advice of the charity.
I can fully imagine a charity runs to a strict budget and can’t take on ‘staff’ and a huge influx of horses, most of which would be rehome-able.
BUT the crux from how I’m reading this is a) the advice the charity gave to the executor - was this in line with Janet’s wishes (it would appear not), and given not - what is the driver behind this? Why did the charity take a different action? The sale value of the horses will go into the overall estate so presumably part of the executors job is to maximise the estate value for the beneficiaries.
It sounds like one big mess and I hate it. But I’m sat here thinking ‘trial by internet’ - what if this charity is legit and there hands were tied?
Just devils advocate - my gut says the charity have failed these horses but without the full facts and legal obligations I’d be nervous of turning this into a witch-hunt
From writing my own will I was advised animals I own aren’t part of the strict legal part. I could (and did) prepare an expression of wish document that outlines who I want to deal with animals and what my preferred intentions are for those animals but I have a feeling it’s not legally binding.
For a non-horsey executor this sounds like a bit of a nightmare. It involves property, multiple horses, presumably this named charity (but their capacity of involvement / beneficiary is unclear). If a charity is named as the ‘professional’ I’d imagine the executor felt they had little choice but to go with the advice of the charity.
I can fully imagine a charity runs to a strict budget and can’t take on ‘staff’ and a huge influx of horses, most of which would be rehome-able.
BUT the crux from how I’m reading this is a) the advice the charity gave to the executor - was this in line with Janet’s wishes (it would appear not), and given not - what is the driver behind this? Why did the charity take a different action? The sale value of the horses will go into the overall estate so presumably part of the executors job is to maximise the estate value for the beneficiaries.
It sounds like one big mess and I hate it. But I’m sat here thinking ‘trial by internet’ - what if this charity is legit and there hands were tied?
Just devils advocate - my gut says the charity have failed these horses but without the full facts and legal obligations I’d be nervous of turning this into a witch-hunt
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
A non horsy executor what was Janet thinking , mine is not very horsy but I have a list of friends he knows where that is who will assist him in carrying out the horse part of the will .
I would guess the executor has been duped and thought they had found a perfect solution to the horses being safe .
I would guess the executor has been duped and thought they had found a perfect solution to the horses being safe .
meleeka
Well-Known Member
Hands tied by whom? It seems to me that they were involved in deciding what to do with the horses, so deemed ‘the experts’. They could have, in their capacity as experts, decided which horses were rehomable and which weren’t and taken the opinion of those that knew the horses well on board. At some point, a bin end dealer was asked to take the horses as a job lot. Now I’m no expert, but I would very much doubt that this got the best financial return for the estate, so it can’t have been done for that reason alone. The charity could have decided to keep the unsalable ones at the property to see out their days, with the thought that the benefit of taking on the whole lot would have brought them more benefit than the horses cost to keep, or they could have pts if they couldn’t financially afford to keep them.
It sounds much like it was all done for convenience, with no regard for the welfare of the horses, nor the wishes of Janet.
I’ve just seen this on the FB page. How utterly heartbreaking for those involved
“I remember the day so well. Janet coming into the tack room with a big smile. “I’ve made my will “ she said “ all of my horses will be safe and stay here until the end of their days and you will all stay and look after them “ The executer thought that it would be nice to find a charity to take over as Janet was in the process of setting up her own We were lead to believe that the charity would oversee the horse’s welfare and when the last horse had passed the farm it would be turned over to Hopton as their legacy for looking after them. We had genuine buyers contact us but were told that there was no need sell Then the tables turned. I voiced my concerns and was very blunt and to the point about selling to a dealer. To both the executor and the head of the charity My words fell on deaf ears
As did Janet’s wishes the day she instructed a said person who didn’t know one end of a horse from another. Let alone Janet’s lifelong passion to breed these wonderful horses As for the charity in my eyes all they could see was the money and keeping Janet’s horses on would make a big hole In what they stood to gain.”
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
It's a huge mess, and quite how it ended up like this I have no idea. It is categorically not what Janet will have intended to happen.
Genuine offers from friends and former staff to help sell on or rehome many of the Indigo horses were rebuffed, but by who and with what motive is yet to fully come out in the wash.
Meanwhile, a number of Indigo bred horses are being passed around the dealer circuit so please keep a look out, and if you see one please let the Indigo FB group admin know. I suspect that the Indigo prefix might become too hot to handle soon. Buck's stable name was changed to Jasper, although he still had his original passport.
Genuine offers from friends and former staff to help sell on or rehome many of the Indigo horses were rebuffed, but by who and with what motive is yet to fully come out in the wash.
Meanwhile, a number of Indigo bred horses are being passed around the dealer circuit so please keep a look out, and if you see one please let the Indigo FB group admin know. I suspect that the Indigo prefix might become too hot to handle soon. Buck's stable name was changed to Jasper, although he still had his original passport.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
What a horribly sad situation. I do hope the remaining horses can be found and rehomed in their best interests.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Buck, the stallion sold and then returned to the dealer was gelded when Janet decided to retire from breeding so it's not a recent thing. I'm in the Indigo group and to be fair to the new owner, she seemed lovely and genuinely wanted the best for him, it's just very sad that she was never given the full story and it didn't work out for them.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Buck, the stallion sold and then returned to the dealer was gelded when Janet decided to retire from breeding so it's not a recent thing. I'm in the Indigo group and to be fair to the new owner, she seemed lovely and genuinely wanted the best for him, it's just very sad that she was never given the full story and it didn't work out for them.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
If he had been a breeding stallion his whole life, and was gelded in adulthood, it would still have a huge impact on his current behaviour and management requirements and is a fairly huge thing to not disclose.
How utterly galling for all (who still care) involved.
irishdraft
Well-Known Member
I'm so sad to see all of this, I'm on the indigo FB page and saw the saga with the recently gelded horse but wasn't aware of the rest of it. Can anyone tell me who the dealer is who has Janet's horses please ?
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
So
1. who was the estate (property and land) left to in the will?
2. what were the expressed wishes for the care of each animal as written in the will?
Has anyone actually seen the will itself? An executor cannot legally go against the direct instruction of the will because they thought it would be nice. Was the charity given the estate, or parts of it, in the will?
1. who was the estate (property and land) left to in the will?
2. what were the expressed wishes for the care of each animal as written in the will?
Has anyone actually seen the will itself? An executor cannot legally go against the direct instruction of the will because they thought it would be nice. Was the charity given the estate, or parts of it, in the will?
paddy555
Well-Known Member
nothing to stop you, £1.50.
and it will all be as clear as mud, what is unclear is all the rest.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
The Caulfields
Rupert2021
Member
Hi they only have one, which is buck.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
Oh I totally agree, I only mentioned it as it came across on here that some people here thought he was gelded and then sold immediately. The buyer also mentioned she had a mare so the chances are that was a factor in him failing to settle if he was expected to live in close quarters with her. The buyer had no idea he'd been a breeding stallion until she posted in the group and the owners of his offspring all replied with photos of his babies.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
What a bloody awful thing. I feel so sad for the horses but the staff too who must feel so powerless to help. I can’t get my head around why you wouldn’t listen to them when they knew the horses best.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
What strikes me here is that if Hopton were to get the farm after the horses had gone, they weren't the best person to advise the executor. They have a vested interest and will financially benefit from getting rid of the horses asap so weren't disinterested.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
I've heard bits and pieces of local gossip about this, and it certainly seems like a fairly complicated situation, and I don't believe JG had finished making the provisions that she was intending to make before she died, so yeah...messy.
However, JG's "farm" is actually just a small holding in quite a muddy area, and she always used to rely on renting fields from various local farmers. I don't know whether this was still the case when she died, but I presume so given the amount of horses being discussed. Also, these horses represent a lot of mouths to feed, and having had experience of how difficult it is to use money from an estate before the will has been fully executed, it is almost impossible unless a specific provision (executors bank account or similar) has been made. I assume that the stud was not officially a business and so all the horses were just Janet's private property, and the staff employed directly by her, so no way to keep the stud running or even winding down in a controlled way while the rest of her estate was settled.
Hopton is a reputable charity, but they are very small, with an operation only about the sane size as JG's, and I can't imagine they would have been able to handle the administrative or logistical burden of handling her property and horses all of a sudden. I also assume that they would have very limited financial means to tide over JG's estate on the equine side for long.
That being said, there have obviously been some very poor decisions made, despite staff and others trying to step in and help. How much was the charity and how much was the executor in those decisions? Who knows...sadly it will be the horses who pay the price. Such a sad state of affairs.
However, JG's "farm" is actually just a small holding in quite a muddy area, and she always used to rely on renting fields from various local farmers. I don't know whether this was still the case when she died, but I presume so given the amount of horses being discussed. Also, these horses represent a lot of mouths to feed, and having had experience of how difficult it is to use money from an estate before the will has been fully executed, it is almost impossible unless a specific provision (executors bank account or similar) has been made. I assume that the stud was not officially a business and so all the horses were just Janet's private property, and the staff employed directly by her, so no way to keep the stud running or even winding down in a controlled way while the rest of her estate was settled.
Hopton is a reputable charity, but they are very small, with an operation only about the sane size as JG's, and I can't imagine they would have been able to handle the administrative or logistical burden of handling her property and horses all of a sudden. I also assume that they would have very limited financial means to tide over JG's estate on the equine side for long.
That being said, there have obviously been some very poor decisions made, despite staff and others trying to step in and help. How much was the charity and how much was the executor in those decisions? Who knows...sadly it will be the horses who pay the price. Such a sad state of affairs.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Requests concerning animals aren't legally enforceable in a will I don't believe, you can only express your wishes.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Are they not considered to be 'property' as they are in all other legal circumstances?
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I viewed some horses for a potential purchaser a few years ago and very sadly the yard and grounds were in a poor state, knee deep in mud and over crowded. Janet was very unwell at the time and obviously struggling. The quality of the horses was less than I had expected, with all four I looked at having poor conformation and all by the resident stallion. I am a huge fan of ID's and thought we would buy, but we couldn't.
Such a sad situation, but as we all know, with death comes vultures with hope of gain.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Yes, but much like a car, you can leave them to whoever you want, but you cannot stop that person selling the car I don't believe. You also cannot leave things to pets in a will, but you can leave it to a beneficiary to use to care for the pet, but again I don't think it's really enforceable unless you put it in a trust rather than direct inheritance.
I am not an expert, this is just from personal encounters with family estates and similar research for my horse.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
But you can in fact leave animals to a named person and the executor cannot change that?
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