Dressage Interesting study on conflict behaviours in dressage horses and scores

[shortstuff99]

A new study has just come out found here https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...?ref=pdf_download&fr=RR-2&rr=745f4201b9b4d6aa

Bit saddened that they had said they found a conflict behaviour in most dressage movements performed. It was also interesting to see horse in front of the vertical are marked lower than horses behind the vertical. I would thought at the levels they were judging at both should have the same sort of score. Although the FEI guidelines do say on or infront of the vertical and not behind.

Once again stirs that part of me on ethics and riding ?

 

[Cragrat]

I've only read the abstract so far, but my fist thoughts are that it is sad, but I will read the whole thing to find out more about what these conflict behaviours actually are. Also, I'd love to see ithe study repeated at levels above Elementary.

 

[stangs]

I’ll admit this study was gratifying to read. None of what they discovered surprises me, but it’s good to have a study to reference, particularly as they affirm that:

Horses who wore flash nosebands showed increased tail swishing and horses who wore Micklem bridles or grakle nosebands showed increased mouth conflict behaviors.

The presence of spurs was associated with the horse's nasal plane being behind the vertical which may indicate an equine coping mechanism for increased or prolonged pressure or pain on their sides.

Good that they made the paper open access too. Hopefully, it’ll inspire people to watch back some videos of them riding and try behaviour score their own horse.

 

[ycbm]

Behavioral signs of conflict are indicative of compromised welfare in ridden horses.

This is a hell of a statement, though.

There is a very big difference, I would argue, between a horse expressing an opinion by chewing at the bit, tail swishing, pinning back its ears, and there being any welfare issue.

I haven't read the whole study and I probably should before commenting, but it strikes me that the researchers set out to prove that dressage causes welfare issues in designing the study.

There's a precursor step missing, imo, and that is first to establish that bit chewing, tail swishing and pinning back the ears is actually indicative of a welfare issue. If it is, then there are few horses which should ever be ridden at all.

 

[ycbm]

Horses who wore flash nosebands showed increased tail swishing and horses who wore Micklem bridles or grakle nosebands showed increased mouth conflict behaviors.

Alternative view. Horses with naturally unsteady months are more often ridden in grackle nosebands or Micklem bridles

The presence of spurs was associated with the horse's nasal plane being behind the vertical which may indicate an equine coping mechanism for increased or prolonged pressure or pain on their sides.

Alternative view. Riders who wear spurs are more likely to ride behind the verticle because it scores better than in front of it. That statement also requires proof that spurs are causing pain in that situation before it can be made.

The more I read the more I'm convinced that this is a PETA type bit of research which started from the viewpoint "I'm going to prove dressage causes welfare issues. It's a very flawed study, I think.


ETA I am no fan of most modern dressage and I do believe that there are welfare issues, just not necessarily indicated in the way this study suggests.

 

[stangs]

There is a very big difference, I would argue, between a horse expressing an opinion by chewing at the bit, tail swishing, pinning back its ears, and there being any welfare issue.

You cannot just read the abstract and then criticise.

If you had actually read it, you would find that authors cite numerous other papers supporting the idea that these behaviours are suggestive of conflict/pain.

A horse being unhappy or in pain - which is the opinion that’s likely getting expressed there - is always going to be a welfare issue. Presumably you don’t think that “welfare issue” only refers to obese laminitics and horses keeling over in agony?

 

[ycbm]

You cannot just read the abstract and then criticise.

If you had actually read it, you would find that authors cite numerous other papers supporting the idea that these behaviours are suggestive of conflict/pain.

A horse being unhappy or in pain - which is the opinion that’s likely getting expressed there - is always going to be a welfare issue. Presumably you don’t think that “welfare issue” only refers to obese laminitics and horses keeling over in agony?

But if you are using the behaviours they have chosen as indicative of welfare issues rather than momentary expression of an opinion by the horse, then the dressage is irrelevant and there's probably no horse in the country that should be being ridden.


ETA while persistent pain certainly is a welfare issue, I'm not certain that transitory pain is and I'm absolutely sure that conflict cannot be defined always as a welfare issue.
.

 

[ycbm]

You cannot just read the abstract and then criticise.

I have now read the whole and my view has not changed.

They have not established that any of what they are measuring is a welfare issue, and some of their conclusions are almost infantile.


For example.

Whole-body conflict behaviors were significantly associated with judge score. Movements in which no whole-body conflict behaviors were displayed resulted in a higher judge score than movements in which bucking, stumbling, spooking, napping or un-cued behavior was seen. These behaviors are clearly visible which may explain why they are used by the judge when determining scores.

Whole body behaviours affect the score more because whole body behaviours affect the execution of the movement being scored.
.

 

[planete]

The study prompted me to do a bit of 'research' last night. I viewed videos of Carl, Charlotte, The Spanish Riding school, Manolo Mendez, Alizee Froment and Philippe Karl among others. By freezing the action at intervals all the horses ridden were behind the vertical either regularly or occasionally apart from Philippe Karl on Odin- or perhaps I missed it! I do not consider any of these riders' horses were being abused. I am not ready to express a definitive opinion at the moment but I am slightly in the ycbm camp. Dressage movements require a lot of very gradual preparation and the balance that needs to be achieved for the advanced movements is very fragile and easily disturbed, often by outside factors beyond the rider's control. Good horses when well trained cooperate because they want to please their rider and probably also because they enjoy the enhanced way of moving it teaches many of them. There is obvious pleasure from a horse who learns a movement and gets praised and rewarded. I am experiencing this at the moment with my stuffy little cob who delights in showing off his newly learnt lateral moves and actually wants to go into the school. We do have clashes occasionally when I misjudge something but we trust each other to resolve them peacefully. He still drops behind the vertical but that is his decision and he does not seem in any way disturbed when it happens.

There is abuse but no horse would be ridden if he only ever did what comes naturally, running wild or feral with his herd. A sign of discontent is not necessarily a sign of abuse, more like a difference of opinion between friends when all is well between the rider and the horse. You either believe riding can enhance the lives of humans and horses or you do not. The best clinic I ever watched was with Charles de Kunffy. His eye for when a horse and rider combo were ready for an effortless first attempt at a new dressage move and his ability to get them to this point was truly awesome. We all strive for this pinnacle of perfection but few achieve it. By all means root out true abuse, jabbing spurs, harsh hands and methods, but do not hound everybody who is not perfect. There is too much genuine love of horses and striving to better ourselves for a blanket condemnation.

 

[shortstuff99]

I once wrote for a judge who said if she saw a competitor come in with a Micklem then she looked for contact issues, so I asked if she did the same when they had a flash (as 99% of horses seem to, and is for contact issues) that seemed to stump the judge and admitted she didn't.

What I thought was interesting in the study was what judges gave for what issue, the behind vs in front of the vertical was most interesting to me.

 

[stangs]

ETA while persistent pain certainly is a welfare issue, I'm not certain that transitory pain is and I'm absolutely sure that conflict cannot be defined always as a welfare issue.

My argument would be that transitory pain is a welfare issue, if to a lesser extent than persistent pain, because I would suspect that it affects the animal mentally too. To anthropomorphise: my dodgy leg doesn't always act up, so it's not persistent pain. However, because it sometimes acts up, that has put me off certain activities like running, because I fear that, this time, it'll hurt. Plus, in this case, I can control whether I choose to run or not. The horse in a dressage test doesn't have that control. The transitory pain is uncontrollable, and largely unpredictable - two characteristics that make a stressor 'worse' (e.g., as discussed here). That's what makes it a welfare issue imo.

They have not established that any of what they are measuring is a welfare issue

Because that's not the point of the study. The study is solely providing data of the prevalence of conflict behaviours in a certain population, and the judging occurring alongside these behaviours.

They make reference to other studies that have demonstrated that these conflict behaviours could be/are indicative of welfare concerns, like pain. As such studies are numerous, this paper doesn't need to regurgitate that information in choosing which behaviours to score.

some of their conclusions are almost infantile.

A lot of this stuff gets introduced when the paper gets reviewed. The paper isn’t being written for the dressage audience. It’s written for a journal that doesn’t have an equine focus, and has to be written accordingly.

the balance that needs to be achieved for the advanced movements is very fragile and easily disturbed

The paper looks at horses up to Elementary level. These aren't advanced movements. Besides, it's not just the presence of the conflict behaviours that's the issue here. It's the sheer scale of their occurrence - and how judges perceive them. The judge should only be marking the horse in front of them, not pondering why the horse is doing what they're doing, or if it would ride better at home.

A sign of discontent is not necessarily a sign of abuse, more like a difference of opinion between friends when all is well between the rider and the horse.

When you argue with a friend, the argument can go either way. The two of you can part ways if your friend is getting upset with you and calm down again. Whereas, in a dressage test, the horse’s movement is being dictated by the rider, they can't just leave, and ime it's rare that anyone retires because of the behaviours the horse is exhibiting. The general training advice is to 'ride through it', after all.

I also did not find the study as a ‘blanket condemnation’. The authors were careful not to do so, and their conclusion suggests a need for change very tamely.

The results indicate that currently dressage performance is not consistently being evaluated based on the FEI guidelines (FEI, 2020), with some behavioral signs of conflict being disregarded or, even more worryingly, rewarded. In agreement with previous research, the results of this study emphasize the need for governing bodies such as the FEI and BD to reassess their judge training and continuing professional development to better incorporate these behavioral criteria. More focus on accurately interpreting behavior and embedding this into performance evaluation would result in improved training and welfare for the horse, as well as promoting a sustainable future for equestrian sport.

 

[ycbm]

Because that (welfare) is not the point of the study. The study is solely providing data of the prevalence of conflict behaviours in a certain population, and the judging occurring alongside these behaviours.

I quoted in my first post. They make an explicit statement that it's a welfare issue. Nothing in their research justifies them making that statement in their conclusions.
.

 

[ycbm]

By the by, I agree wholeheartedly with anyone who argues that an unsteady mouth and a flashing tail should return to having points deducted as they used to in the 80's.

It is certainly, imo, a sign of a less settled or less cooperative horse and the horse without those signs, all else being equal, should win. But that's not automatically a welfare issue.
.

 

[stangs]

I quoted in my first post. They make an explicit statement that it's a welfare issue. Nothing in their research justifies them making that statement in their conclusions.
.

I think this may be a case of a poorly-written abstract and nothing more. It’s only in the abstract that they allude to this so explicitly.

 

[oldie48]

Having written for a few dressage competitions I've never known a judge mark a movement according to the plane of the nose. They are looking at the whole picture, the accuracy of the movements, the quality of the transitions, the straightness, the rhythm etc and depending on the level of the test the issue of "is the horse on the bit?) comes lower down the considerations than rhythm, suppleness, contact and accuracy. I think we get over fixated on where the head is and my own limited experience is that every time I've gone up a level I've lost that "perfect plane" that's if I ever get it with complete consistency. Interestingly, I've had horses that have the "go to" of "ATB" and others go "BTV" My current ride is a definite "BTV" and it's usually because he's lost impulsion, Mr B was a consistent "ATB" and generally I could sort this by encouraging him to soften and drop his poll, their conformation and way of going were poles apart but I genuinely don't feel that either of them were being abused or in pain.

 

[ycbm]

I think this may be a case of a poorly-written abstract and nothing more. It’s only in the abstract that they allude to this so explicitly.

The word welfare occurs many times over through the full report.

 

[shortstuff99]

Having written for a few dressage competitions I've never known a judge mark a movement according to the plane of the nose. They are looking at the whole picture, the accuracy of the movements, the quality of the transitions, the straightness, the rhythm etc and depending on the level of the test the issue of "is the horse on the bit?) comes lower down the considerations than rhythm, suppleness, contact and accuracy. I think we get over fixated on where the head is and my own limited experience is that every time I've gone up a level I've lost that "perfect plane" that's if I ever get it with complete consistency. Interestingly, I've had horses that have the "go to" of "ATB" and others go "BTV" My current ride is a definite "BTV" and it's usually because he's lost impulsion, Mr B was a consistent "ATB" and generally I could sort this by encouraging him to soften and drop his poll, their conformation and way of going were poles apart but I genuinely don't feel that either of them were being abused or in pain.

I think the issue with the head is that the FEI rules for dressage explicitly state the head should be on or in front of the vertical (it used to say in front but they recently added the on), and that is whole head not just nose, and not behind the vertical. Which is why it becomes confusing when the whole head position becomes insignificant to the mark. Why have it as an FEI definition if they are not going to care about it?

 

[oldie48]

Shortstuff, I totally agree that the head should be on or in front of the vertical but when a judge is marking a movement there isn't a mark for that, the mark is for the whole movement. I'm not a judge but if a horse at prelim level is in a good rhythm, performs the movement accurately because it's supple it will probably get a 7 or 7.5, so basically there's another 3 or 3.5 marks that it's not got, how much of that would be attributed to "plane of the face" I'm not sure any judge would be able to tell you. It may be well above the bit or behind the vertical but it's performed a fairly good movement, not perfect, plenty of room for improvement. I'm not really sure what you want. If a horse fails to perform certain things in a test I'm aware there's a "firewall" mark Ie the judge can't mark above 4? Sorry not sure what the mark is, but as it stands ATM, having the nose BTV is not a firewall. You might argue that it should be, but in my own limited experience I know how tension can create a BTV outline whilst normally the horse is not like this. I am happy to be corrected on this but surely the FEI definition is "the ideal", most riders and horses can't achieve the ideal but it doesn't mean they are abusive or detrimental to the welfare of their horse. I don't think we will ever agree on this and this is something that you obviously care about a great deal. If you are not already a judge, perhaps you would then be in a position to start influencing things. All I know is that when I ride I aim for the FEI definition and sometimes (quite often) fail. Should I stop riding?

 

[shortstuff99]

No I of course don't think you should stop riding. I just find it interesting what different riders place as more important in movements to others. In the French classical dressage system the scales of training are very different to the German (and adopted by the FEI) scales. To me contact is one of the fundamentals as how can you train the horse and help then improve if you have no communication through a correct contact? Others don't feel that way and focus on other things first. Many ways to Rome and all that.

I am a trainee judge (hella expensive to do nowadays) and also a working equitation trainee judge and the different focuses between the two is also quite interesting.

 

[Lady Jane]

Welfare issue is quite an emotive statement. How many of us ride well enough that our horses never display these behaviours in the ring? My horse (see Avator) goes very chompy in the mouth if I get too intense. He also goes chompy when excited and having fun but I won't put a flash on him. My riding needs to improve. With my trainer he goes chompy when his wriggles don't suceed (she wants his back legs tucked under him and pushing) but then gives in and is very soft. So my view is don't over ride and ride better

 

[Caol Ila]

The study is carefully worded, suggesting that judge training and scoring criteria should be modified to include stronger welfare components. I think most of us agree that horses with constantly swishing tails and gaping, tense mouths should be scored lower than horses who seem comfortable and relaxed in the work. And we know they often aren't.

On the other hand, virtually no one rides well enough to avoid all 'conflict behavours.' Most of us will, at some point or another, apply muddled aids that confuse our horses. No matter how good you are, there will be moments of tension and stress. If my horse wants to spook into the road, but I am stopping him with rein and leg, I might get some tail swishing and head tossing. Or if you're teaching the horse something new, the horse might get confused, wondering where the release is, and show those behaviours (though obviously you are not doing this in a dressage test!).

Plainly in the context of a dressage show, you want to see the best riding and training rewarded. I think this is what the paper was trying to say, and the authors would like to see judging that marks down signs of tension, more than the existing rubricks do. But in a wider sense, moments of tension, stress, conflict are inevitable when we ride horses. I try my best to keep training as tension-free as possible and develop happy, relaxed horses, but sometimes, that quad bike just shows up, mares go into season, my canter cue sucks, etc. etc.

 

[tristar]

Having written for a few dressage competitions I've never known a judge mark a movement according to the plane of the nose. They are looking at the whole picture, the accuracy of the movements, the quality of the transitions, the straightness, the rhythm etc and depending on the level of the test the issue of "is the horse on the bit?) comes lower down the considerations than rhythm, suppleness, contact and accuracy. I think we get over fixated on where the head is and my own limited experience is that every time I've gone up a level I've lost that "perfect plane" that's if I ever get it with complete consistency. Interestingly, I've had horses that have the "go to" of "ATB" and others go "BTV" My current ride is a definite "BTV" and it's usually because he's lost impulsion, Mr B was a consistent "ATB" and generally I could sort this by encouraging him to soften and drop his poll, their conformation and way of going were poles apart but I genuinely don't feel that either of them were being abused or in pain.

i always look to see the head position, its seems to reflect the quality of the horse`s work in that moment of time, and if the work is right it is reflected in the head position, the horse`s body from the hocks though the back dictate how the horse carries its head and neck, and where it places its nose precisely.

and what planete said about the balance is brilliant, for years i have been trying to find words to define that feeling of what is going on

and if its only about elementary so what, that is where dressage seriously starts and if its not good there the foundations are rocky

 

[tristar]

the first para refers to conflicting cues

surely at novice level the may appear to be the case, but lack of ring craft and inexperienced horses with all the distractions of a show will have delayed reactions to aids at times and are nothing more than practice makes perfect in the small arena

 

[Palindrome]

I am just throwing that out there but I think flash nosebands shouldn't be allowed in the higher levels.

 

[shortstuff99]

I am just throwing that out there but I think flash nosebands shouldn't be allowed in the higher levels.

Or really radical, but no flash at all?

This is the flash on one of the top placed 5 year olds at the World Breeding Champs this weekend...

 

[Caol Ila]

If I was made queen of the FEI, I would ban flashes from all bridles, forever.

 

[ycbm]

Or really radical, but no flash at all?

This is the flash on one of the top placed 5 year olds at the World Breeding Champs this weekend...

View attachment 99249

Poor bloody creature ?
.

 

[shortstuff99]

If I was made queen of the FEI, I would ban flashes from all bridles, forever.

Me too

 

[shortstuff99]

Poor bloody creature ?
.

It was even worse when the judges said how the riding was so much better this year and dressage was going in the right direction and yet most of the horses all had flashes this tight.

 

[tristar]

i have only ever ridden my own horses in spurs once, and a flash once, purely to see how it feels

both change the feel from the horse, the feedback is changed, the long route sans flash gives a truer result

its amazing to have to say these things, so glaringly obvious