Dressage Interesting study on conflict behaviours in dressage horses and scores

[oldie48]

The picture of that 5 year old is appalling but I've been thinking about the "flash" nose band and no, I wouldn't ban it but I would strengthen the rule about how tight they should be and make sure that it is enforced, not with just a request for it to be loosened/elimination but for an infringement to be recorded and on the basis of three strikes = ban for a year. Lots of people have flash nosebands and use them correctly, I don't believe they should be penalised because some use them incorrectly. I think trainers need to ensure that riders understand that an open mouth is a symptom and the rider's job is to find out what it's a symptom of because there can be many reasons. Someone recently told me that she was writing for a judge when a horse came in wearing a Micklem bridle, "Oh" said the judge, " I bet this horse has a problem with contact". Some judges need a bit of education too.

 

[tristar]

if flash nbs were banned the onus would be on the rider to find the cause of the mouth opening/problem, i have found it to be generally the teeth, in the case of unsteady contact or too strong a contact from the rider

 

[j1ffy]

I've just got around to reading the study and it does raise some interesting points about judging - for example, I was surprised that there was no correlation between judges' scores and tension in the mouth (suggesting an issue with contact).

However there are challenges with the study and some crucial information missing, IMO, that would have an impact on the conclusions drawn. The study mentions 'younger horses', suggesting an assumption that horses at lower levels will be younger. However no information on horse age is included. Similarly, different horse types are likely to score differently and show different behaviours - e.g. a more forward-going horse may come more BTV; a horse with higher quality paces will score more highly even if there are issues. Age information should be available for most of the horses via the BD database but it wasn't included here; the collectives would reflect overall quality of paces but it doesn't look like that was considered.

Also all the tests are 20x40 and in this area (I don't know about Scotland) you'd be less likely to see pros riding those tests, so the assessment would be more likely based on less experienced riders / combinations. Is there a difference between Bronze / Silver / Gold? To what extent are conflict behaviours down to inexperience / rider error rather than reflecting a systemic training issue (and therefore potential welfare implication)?

So yes, it's mildly interesting but I don't think it can tell us a huge amount about welfare or even about judging.

 

[Chianti]

Having written for a few dressage competitions I've never known a judge mark a movement according to the plane of the nose. They are looking at the whole picture, the accuracy of the movements, the quality of the transitions, the straightness, the rhythm etc and depending on the level of the test the issue of "is the horse on the bit?) comes lower down the considerations than rhythm, suppleness, contact and accuracy. I think we get over fixated on where the head is and my own limited experience is that every time I've gone up a level I've lost that "perfect plane" that's if I ever get it with complete consistency. Interestingly, I've had horses that have the "go to" of "ATB" and others go "BTV" My current ride is a definite "BTV" and it's usually because he's lost impulsion, Mr B was a consistent "ATB" and generally I could sort this by encouraging him to soften and drop his poll, their conformation and way of going were poles apart but I genuinely don't feel that either of them were being abused or in pain.

In 2021 my 13 hand, ex riding school, mini cob gelding went to the local (well known) equestrian centre, for the first time, with the woman who'd been schooling him to do Prelim 7. This was a bit of an in joke as I was fed up with comments on the yard about 'how cute' he was and wanted to show he could do what the big boys did. I was very chuffed as he scored 63.63% and was eighth out of 25! The judge's comments were interesting, and I often think of them when I'm watching topflight dressage horses go round with their noses behind the vertical. She wrote, 'Willing pony! He has a tendency to go behind the vertical though, so marks could not go higher'. If marks are affected at prelim level how on earth are they not at the higher levels?

 

[j1ffy]

In 2021 my 13 hand, ex riding school, mini cob gelding went to the local (well known) equestrian centre, for the first time, with the woman who'd been schooling him to do Prelim 7. This was a bit of an in joke as I was fed up with comments on the yard about 'how cute' he was and wanted to show he could do what the big boys did. I was very chuffed as he scored 63.63% and was eighth out of 25! The judge's comments were interesting, and I often think of them when I'm watching topflight dressage horses go round with their noses behind the vertical. She wrote, 'Willing pony! He has a tendency to go behind the vertical though, so marks could not go higher'. If marks are affected at prelim level how on earth are they not at the higher levels?

I think Oldie's point is that the judge looks at the whole picture. It's extremely rare for a combination to score a 10, and bear in mind that 10 is 'excellent' rather than 'perfect'. Therefore the vast majority of movements have something that is bringing the mark down. If a horse is rhythmical, obedient, engaged, good in the contact and accurate then they will score highly even they have lost a mark or half-mark due to coming BTV.

Well done to you and your pony! I hope you get out and about again

 

[oldie48]

Yes, J1ffy, exactly my point.

 

[eahotson]

Poor bloody creature ?
.

sadly though very common.

 

[Chianti]

I think Oldie's point is that the judge looks at the whole picture. It's extremely rare for a combination to score a 10, and bear in mind that 10 is 'excellent' rather than 'perfect'. Therefore the vast majority of movements have something that is bringing the mark down. If a horse is rhythmical, obedient, engaged, good in the contact and accurate then they will score highly even they have lost a mark or half-mark due to coming BTV.

Well done to you and your pony! I hope you get out and about again

But the judge has written that he can't have higher marks because he went behind the vertical- so he's never going to score a 10. My argument is that FEI rules clearly state.

In all the work, even at the halt, the Horse must be “on the bit”. A Horse is said to be “on the bit” when the neck is more or less raised and arched according to the stage of training and the extension or collection of the pace, accepting the bridle with a light and consistent soft submissive contact. The head should remain in a steady position, as a rule slightly in front of the vertical, with a supple poll as the highest point of the neck, and no resistance should be offered to the Athlete.

Do the judges start at 1 when scoring and work up, or ten and take off for errors? If they're starting at 1 then anything being ridden behind the vertical shouldn't be getting high marks because they are not meeting that requirement.

Thank you for your comment about my pony. I doubt we'll be out again. As I said it was a one off as a joke between myself and the woman schooling him - fat little ponies can play the game (to a very low standard). He will go round in every decreasing circles but is actually much happier wandering about on a hack or chilling on his track with his mates.

 

[eahotson]

It was even worse when the judges said how the riding was so much better this year and dressage was going in the right direction and yet most of the horses all had flashes this tight.

Oh dear Lord.

 

[eahotson]

One of the problems is that many people think that if a horse head is on or behind the vertical the horse is "On the bit".

 

[eahotson]

It was even worse when the judges said how the riding was so much better this year and dressage was going in the right direction and yet most of the horses all had flashes this tight.

I watched a video of a famous dressage riders well known groom trying to loosen the nose band at the end of the test.The camera crew kept on filming (it was very tight so very difficult) while groom got more irritated with them.

 

[eahotson]

Having written for a few dressage competitions I've never known a judge mark a movement according to the plane of the nose. They are looking at the whole picture, the accuracy of the movements, the quality of the transitions, the straightness, the rhythm etc and depending on the level of the test the issue of "is the horse on the bit?) comes lower down the considerations than rhythm, suppleness, contact and accuracy. I think we get over fixated on where the head is and my own limited experience is that every time I've gone up a level I've lost that "perfect plane" that's if I ever get it with complete consistency. Interestingly, I've had horses that have the "go to" of "ATB" and others go "BTV" My current ride is a definite "BTV" and it's usually because he's lost impulsion, Mr B was a consistent "ATB" and generally I could sort this by encouraging him to soften and drop his poll, their conformation and way of going were poles apart but I genuinely don't feel that either of them were being abused or in pain.

My little gypsy cob has just started doing some low level dressage tests.Her rider is just beginning her competitive career.We are pleased because on each outing she has improved her marks, and has been placed and even won a couple of her competitions.The judge usually complements her rythmn and tempo and says her paces are correct.She is usually well in front of the vertical though.She is very young and green,.No one has critiisized this.

 

[j1ffy]

But the judge has written that he can't have higher marks because he went behind the vertical- so he's never going to score a 10. My argument is that FEI rules clearly state.

We're in agreement then - that's exactly what I was saying too. Horses very rarely get a 10 and one of the reasons they will be marked down is if they're BTV.

As for judge's scoring, I think there is more of a move these days to mark down from 10 rather than up from 1. However I believe (and I'm sure others will correct me) that the quality of paces / way of going dictates the basic mark - e.g. a quality horse may be at a baseline of 8, and errors will mean a movement could be marked down so going BTV could result in a 7.5 or 7, but they could get an 8.5 or 9 if a movement is particularly accurate and well-executed. Whereas a less quality (not as good a mover, less supple, etc) may be at a baseline of 6, so the training needs to be better and test ridden more accurately to achieve higher marks. I'm not saying this is right, but the FEI rules emphasise quality of movement as well as training.

 

[shortstuff99]

We're in agreement then - that's exactly what I was saying too. Horses very rarely get a 10 and one of the reasons they will be marked down is if they're BTV.

As for judge's scoring, I think there is more of a move these days to mark down from 10 rather than up from 1. However I believe (and I'm sure others will correct me) that the quality of paces / way of going dictates the basic mark - e.g. a quality horse may be at a baseline of 8, and errors will mean a movement could be marked down so going BTV could result in a 7.5 or 7, but they could get an 8.5 or 9 if a movement is particularly accurate and well-executed. Whereas a less quality (not as good a mover, less supple, etc) may be at a baseline of 6, so the training needs to be better and test ridden more accurately to achieve higher marks. I'm not saying this is right, but the FEI rules emphasise quality of movement as well as training.

That I feel is where the big debate in dressage comes from. Should the base mark be determined by the paces and training adds or detracts or should the base mark come from the training and the pace adds or detracts

 

[j1ffy]

The sport would need a complete overhaul to move away from those principles. The paragraphs before the one that Chianti quoted are as follows (I know you know this SS99 - just sharing for others' benefit!):

1. The object of Dressage is the development of the Horse into a happy Athlete through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the Horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the Athlete.
   These qualities are demonstrated by:
   • The freedom and regularity of the paces.
   • The harmony, lightness and ease of the movements.
   • The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from
     a lively impulsion.
   • The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without
     any tension or resistance.
2. The Horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the Athlete, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
3. The walk is regular, free and unconstrained. The trot is free, supple, regular and active. The canter is united, light and balanced. The hindquarters are never inactive or sluggish. The Horse responds to the slightest indication of the Athlete and thereby gives life and spirit to all the rest of its body.
4. By virtue of a lively impulsion and the suppleness of the joints, free from the paralysing effects of resistance, the Horse obeys willingly and without hesitation and responds to the various aids calmly and with precision, displaying a natural and harmonious balance both physically and mentally.

A horse that has free, supple paces with impulsion and an active hind end will always score higher, all other things being equal, than a less supple cob or native or most Iberians (or most warmbloods, let's be honest!).

I recall Sylvia Loch setting up an alternative 'classical' dressage competition that was purely focused on training, which was a good concept but didn't really take off.

How does it work in WE? Does quality of paces play a role in that?

 

[RachelFerd]

That I feel is where the big debate in dressage comes from. Should the base mark be determined by the paces and training adds or detracts or should the base mark come from the training and the pace adds or detracts

This is a really interesting discussion, but it isn't as simple as this in black and white. Because the judge can never know, for sure, what the natural starting point for a horse is. The quality of paces may be something a horse was born with, or they may have been improved with training. Of course, people aiming for competitive dressage try to gain an advantage by buying a horse with naturally good movement, active push and suppleness. And their training may enhance it further, or their training may spoil it. But the judge will never know where that horse started from - they can guess, but they can't know for sure.

 

[oldie48]

I'm not sure that it's possible to ignore quality of paces, which is linked to conformation and conformation can limit or assist the horse in certain types of movements. eg a short coupled horse may find lateral work slightly more difficult but might find the ability to "sit" comes more naturally, a long legged, long backed horse might find the lateral work easy and be very expressive but could find collection more tricky. A horse with a short neck which is thick at the throatlatch may find it difficult to come into an ideal frame but is unlikely to go BTV however, a horse with a long neck that is uphill will always look more elegant but might go BTV very easily. Horses with less flexibility in their hocks might struggle to have lift in their paces but horses with lots of natural lift (ie Glamourdale) can easily become unbalanced. Unless we all ride cloned horses I think it's impossible to remove conformation/paces from the mix. I do understand that this is frustrating when you have a beautifully trained but fairly "ordinary" horse that gets beaten by "flashy" types that are not as well trained but that's life isn't it? Natural advantage v training is evident in just about every sport that I can think of.

 

[shortstuff99]

The sport would need a complete overhaul to move away from those principles. The paragraphs before the one that Chianti quoted are as follows (I know you know this SS99 - just sharing for others' benefit!):



A horse that has free, supple paces with impulsion and an active hind end will always score higher, all other things being equal, than a less supple cob or native or most Iberians (or most warmbloods, let's be honest!).

I recall Sylvia Loch setting up an alternative 'classical' dressage competition that was purely focused on training, which was a good concept but didn't really take off.

How does it work in WE? Does quality of paces play a role in that?

In WE dressage the paces are part, but a much less part than the training. The dressage is to show how well trained your horse is for working cattle/land. No good having a flashy horse if it won't be calm for working.

 

[shortstuff99]

This is a really interesting discussion, but it isn't as simple as this in black and white. Because the judge can never know, for sure, what the natural starting point for a horse is. The quality of paces may be something a horse was born with, or they may have been improved with training. Of course, people aiming for competitive dressage try to gain an advantage by buying a horse with naturally good movement, active push and suppleness. And their training may enhance it further, or their training may spoil it. But the judge will never know where that horse started from - they can guess, but they can't know for sure.

Perhaps I should have said part of the debate comes from.

I think you can tell when a horse has been well trained and improved then just relying on paces as you will often see gaps in the fundamentals of a move. For example not tracking up in extended trot or piaffe being a trot on the spot.

My opinion of the complaint here, is if they are fundamentally performing the move incorrectly why are they scoring higher then a correct but plain mover? This brings in the argument of having defined penalties much like in gymnastics.

 

[tristar]

I'm not sure that it's possible to ignore quality of paces, which is linked to conformation and conformation can limit or assist the horse in certain types of movements. eg a short coupled horse may find lateral work slightly more difficult but might find the ability to "sit" comes more naturally, a long legged, long backed horse might find the lateral work easy and be very expressive but could find collection more tricky. A horse with a short neck which is thick at the throatlatch may find it difficult to come into an ideal frame but is unlikely to go BTV however, a horse with a long neck that is uphill will always look more elegant but might go BTV very easily. Horses with less flexibility in their hocks might struggle to have lift in their paces but horses with lots of natural lift (ie Glamourdale) can easily become unbalanced. Unless we all ride cloned horses I think it's impossible to remove conformation/paces from the mix. I do understand that this is frustrating when you have a beautifully trained but fairly "ordinary" horse that gets beaten by "flashy" types that are not as well trained but that's life isn't it? Natural advantage v training is evident in just about every sport that I can think of.

perhaps if the judges rode the horses as part of their judgement they would instantly feel the difference, especially if they took off the flash straps

all the show hunter judges ride, sometimes 40 horses

 

[tristar]

the eye of the beholder

if some are noted for an eye for a good horse, which is something one is born with, purely training a dressage judge does not endow them with the gift of judging the truth of what is happening before them, unless they are thus gifted

W E at its best shows a horse that is really at times making the decisions and anticipating what may come next reading the rider intentions as the rider thinks them

 

[oldie48]

perhaps if the judges rode the horses as part of their judgement they would instantly feel the difference, especially if they took off the flash straps

all the show hunter judges ride, sometimes 40 horses

Well if the flashes were correctly fitted, I doubt they would feel any difference. Any horse with incorrectly fitted tack should be eliminated regardless of what it is. That's my view. A rider carrying a whip at a championship, gets eliminated, a rider not wearing gloves, gets eliminated, a rider with the wrong bit, gets eliminated and a rider with a noseband (of any type) that is not fitted correctly, gets eliminated. Simple.

 

[LEC]

But the judge will never know where that horse started from - they can guess, but they can't know for sure.

I had a 17.2hh dr bred eventer who was late to be broken and took a long time to manage his balance and get better in the contact. 20x40 was very tough for him. We would trot round the outside of the arena looking seriously flash and you could feel the judge’s disappointment seep into our test sheets as the test went on. He did get better and I learnt a lot from him on how to manage and train it all better.

 

[tristar]

Well if the flashes were correctly fitted, I doubt they would feel any difference. Any horse with incorrectly fitted tack should be eliminated regardless of what it is. That's my view. A rider carrying a whip at a championship, gets eliminated, a rider not wearing gloves, gets eliminated, a rider with the wrong bit, gets eliminated and a rider with a noseband (of any type) that is not fitted correctly, gets eliminated. Simple.

but f the flash straps were taken off there well may be a difference, or why were they there in the first place?

 

[oldie48]

but f the flash straps were taken off there well may be a difference, or why were they there in the first place?

I think the answer to that would depend on your point of view. If someone has decided the flash is the work of the devil and should be banned, there's little point in answering the question, another person may believe that fitted correctly it helps to stabilise the bit and can improve connection, another may believe it stops their horse from crossing it's jaw. As far as I am concerned, as long as it is fitted according to the rules I think it does no harm. It is not my nose band of choice but I try not to dictate what others should and should not use. fwiw, the horse I currently ride is in a correctly fitted flash, he's not my horse and it's not my bridle, he can be a bit busy in the mouth warming up, the flash doesn't stop and IMO it shouldn't but once he's working through with a proper connection, he's quiet in the mouth and I think that is true for many horses. I think we agree on one thing and that is that the road to a good connection is good training not the misuse of equipment, where I differ from you is that I think people should be allowed to use legal equipment, used correctly within the rules if they so wish.

 

[Palindrome]

I think the answer to that would depend on your point of view. If someone has decided the flash is the work of the devil and should be banned, there's little point in answering the question, another person may believe that fitted correctly it helps to stabilise the bit and can improve connection, another may believe it stops their horse from crossing it's jaw. As far as I am concerned, as long as it is fitted according to the rules I think it does no harm. It is not my nose band of choice but I try not to dictate what others should and should not use. fwiw, the horse I currently ride is in a correctly fitted flash, he's not my horse and it's not my bridle, he can be a bit busy in the mouth warming up, the flash doesn't stop and IMO it shouldn't but once he's working through with a proper connection, he's quiet in the mouth and I think that is true for many horses. I think we agree on one thing and that is that the road to a good connection is good training not the misuse of equipment, where I differ from you is that I think people should be allowed to use legal equipment, used correctly within the rules if they so wish.

Let's be honest, the flash is there to stop the horse opening it's mouth. It's not the "work of the devil", it's a training aid, but we can still discuss if we think it's appropriate or not in competitions, particularly when there is a clear problem of nosebands being too tight and occasionally contact being so harsh that the horse's tongue is blue.

 

[tristar]

trying to solve the reason why its is there in the first place is what interests me

 

[clinkerbuilt]

I'm not experienced enough to take a position either way, but I'm watching the last phase of the FEI WEG dressage and I'm still waiting for a horse to come in without a flash on, with several of them opening their mouths despite that. Albeit some (like Vermiculus just now) looking smooth and light with it, in a snaffle.

 

[oldie48]

Let's be honest, the flash is there to stop the horse opening it's mouth. It's not the "work of the devil", it's a training aid, but we can still discuss if we think it's appropriate or not in competitions, particularly when there is a clear problem of nosebands being too tight and occasionally contact being so harsh that the horse's tongue is blue.

At competitions I think anyone witnessing a horse being ridden in anything that is clearly making a horse distressed should make a formal complaint, initially to whoever is doing the tack check with a follow up letter to the organising body asking how the issue was resolved. I am going to the Nationals tomorrow and as a BD member, I am quite prepared to do that. I think people need to put their hands up and be counted. A picture of a horse with no number posted on the internet does not do it for me. As I have said up thread, I would tighten the policing of tack with a threat of a ban of the rider involved. As Linka above has just witnessed a correctly fitted flash does not prevent the horse from opening his mouth and nor should it.

 

[ycbm]

but f the flash straps were taken off there well may be a difference, or why were they there in the first place?

This. Judges are trying to differentiate between horses on the tiniest differences. I don't see why one of those differences shouldn't be which horse/rider combination will perform best without the bit steadying influence of a mouth restricting noseband.

As Linka above has just witnessed a correctly fitted flash does not prevent the horse from opening his mouth and nor should it.

But it does restrict the horse from opening its mouth as wide as it might want to, and certainly restricts it from being opened so wide that the judge is absolutely forced to mark down because of it.

It's not uncommon to see a nose mark which hasn't been caused by the noseband being put on too tight, but by the horse opening its mouth against the noseband.


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