Dressage Interesting study on conflict behaviours in dressage horses and scores

[eahotson]

At competitions I think anyone witnessing a horse being ridden in anything that is clearly making a horse distressed should make a formal complaint, initially to whoever is doing the tack check with a follow up letter to the organising body asking how the issue was resolved. I am going to the Nationals tomorrow and as a BD member, I am quite prepared to do that. I think people need to put their hands up and be counted. A picture of a horse with no number posted on the internet does not do it for me. As I have said up thread, I would tighten the policing of tack with a threat of a ban of the rider involved. As Linka above has just witnessed a correctly fitted flash does not prevent the horse from opening his mouth and nor should it.

I was at a showjumping competition a few years ago and saw something I thought was out of order.From the judges not a word.I wrote to the BSJA and told them what I had observed and that furthermore it was all on camera (The shows).They did reply saying that they would look into it but I never heard anything else from them.I think that is why people film on their phones and put it on Youtube.

 

[oldie48]

This. Judges are trying to differentiate between horses on the tiniest differences. I don't see why one of those differences shouldn't be which horse/rider combination will perform best without the bit steadying influence of a mouth restricting noseband.






But it does restrict the horse from opening its mouth as wide as it might want to, and certainly restricts it from being opened so wide that the judge is absolutely forced to mark down because of it.

It's not uncommon to see a nose mark which hasn't been caused by the noseband being put on too tight, but by the horse opening its mouth against the noseband.


In case anyone is feeling got at here, I use one.
.

Yes agree, and it's pretty clear if you watch, that the horse is unhappy in the contact and a half decent judge should mark it down with a comment. I've certainly written for judges who have down that. For any rider the question should be, "why does the horse want to open it's mouth that much?" Surely a sensible rider will try it without a flash and in different nose bands, will try it in a different bit perhaps consult a bit expert, will get the dentist to check the teeth. I don't think you get riders thinking more about their horse by banning equipment but you do by banning riders who abuse equipment, sadly abusive riders will just use something else to abuse the horse. That's my opinion anyway.
eahotson, I would have written a further letter asking them what they had done. Anyone who sees a child being abused surely would take action and expect to know what had happened. I don't see abuse to an animal, be it a horse or a dog should be treated any differently. They are all vulnerable to cruelty and we get change by our actions. The reason I follow and post on threads like this is not because I'm an argumentative b......r ( I can be) but because I have changed my views about things because of what I've read and I think other people might too. I find lots of posts on this forum are really thought provoking.

 

[Cortez]

I haven't used a flash in nearly 30 years, but then I no longer compete in serious dressage. When I did, and when I was riding for other people, every single horse was started off from day one in a flash noseband, never worked without one, ever. To this day no one has successfully explained to me why, in a discipline that advocates "soft acceptance of the bit", it was deemed necessary and acceptable to use a strap to shut a horse's mouth. In my opinion they should be banned in competition, if not altogether. Incidentally the horse in my avatar when I got him used to go with his mouth wide open if the reins were touched at all. It took years, but in the end he didn't; no straps were ever used after he came to me.

 

[eahotson]

Well done.

 

[eahotson]

Yes agree, and it's pretty clear if you watch, that the horse is unhappy in the contact and a half decent judge should mark it down with a comment. I've certainly written for judges who have down that. For any rider the question should be, "why does the horse want to open it's mouth that much?" Surely a sensible rider will try it without a flash and in different nose bands, will try it in a different bit perhaps consult a bit expert, will get the dentist to check the teeth. I don't think you get riders thinking more about their horse by banning equipment but you do by banning riders who abuse equipment, sadly abusive riders will just use something else to abuse the horse. That's my opinion anyway.
eahotson, I would have written a further letter asking them what they had done. Anyone who sees a child being abused surely would take action and expect to know what had happened. I don't see abuse to an animal, be it a horse or a dog should be treated any differently. They are all vulnerable to cruelty and we get change by our actions. The reason I follow and post on threads like this is not because I'm an argumentative b......r ( I can be) but because I have changed my views about things because of what I've read and I think other people might too. I find lots of posts on this forum are really thought provoking.

In future I will do.

 

[horsesense]

Locking a horse's mouth shut is inhumane and should be banned and there is something wrong with an equestrian discipline that necessitates it.

 

[tristar]

Yes agree, and it's pretty clear if you watch, that the horse is unhappy in the contact and a half decent judge should mark it down with a comment. I've certainly written for judges who have down that. For any rider the question should be, "why does the horse want to open it's mouth that much?" Surely a sensible rider will try it without a flash and in different nose bands, will try it in a different bit perhaps consult a bit expert, will get the dentist to check the teeth. I don't think you get riders thinking more about their horse by banning equipment but you do by banning riders who abuse equipment, sadly abusive riders will just use something else to abuse the horse. That's my opinion anyway.
eahotson, I would have written a further letter asking them what they had done. Anyone who sees a child being abused surely would take action and expect to know what had happened. I don't see abuse to an animal, be it a horse or a dog should be treated any differently. They are all vulnerable to cruelty and we get change by our actions. The reason I follow and post on threads like this is not because I'm an argumentative b......r ( I can be) but because I have changed my views about things because of what I've read and I think other people might too. I find lots of posts on this forum are really thought provoking.

yet with all the multitude of dentists, bit fitters, specialist trainers, judges and uncle tom cobbly that did not exist years ago, who are supposed to cure the openey mouthy syndrome are so many horses ridden in one and why are they accepted in competition.

because the head carriage at any stage of training is in itself a reflection of the horses physical rung on the ladder of development, or should be

 

[tristar]

I haven't used a flash in nearly 30 years, but then I no longer compete in serious dressage. When I did, and when I was riding for other people, every single horse was started off from day one in a flash noseband, never worked without one, ever. To this day no one has successfully explained to me why, in a discipline that advocates "soft acceptance of the bit", it was deemed necessary and acceptable to use a strap to shut a horse's mouth. In my opinion they should be banned in competition, if not altogether. Incidentally the horse in my avatar when I got him used to go with his mouth wide open if the reins were touched at all. It took years, but in the end he didn't; no straps were ever used after he came to me.

why do you think the horse is opening it mouth?

what are the causes, physical?, mental?, is the rider causing it and how?


is it dentistry, the age we start horses when they are changing their teeth

i changed the dentist with one who would pull at me, i thought it was me, the horses mouth is now still and he is in the same bit

i think all these things are so important from the start of a horses career, if eliminating these problems from the start of training would we see less conflict and a different picture reflecting the early training at the higher levels

what did you do to get past the mouth opening with your horse please cortez,? if you would not mind discussing

 

[tristar]

This. Judges are trying to differentiate between horses on the tiniest differences. I don't see why one of those differences shouldn't be which horse/rider combination will perform best without the bit steadying influence of a mouth restricting noseband.






But it does restrict the horse from opening its mouth as wide as it might want to, and certainly restricts it from being opened so wide that the judge is absolutely forced to mark down because of it.

It's not uncommon to see a nose mark which hasn't been caused by the noseband being put on too tight, but by the horse opening its mouth against the noseband.


In case anyone is feeling got at here, I use one.
.

why do you think he wants to open his mouth, if thats what he is doing

why do you use a flash?

 

[Cortez]

why do you think the horse is opening it mouth?

what are the causes, physical?, mental?, is the rider causing it and how?


is it dentistry, the age we start horses when they are changing their teeth

i changed the dentist with one who would pull at me, i thought it was me, the horses mouth is now still and he is in the same bit

i think all these things are so important from the start of a horses career, if eliminating these problems from the start of training would we see less conflict and a different picture reflecting the early training at the higher levels

what did you do to get past the mouth opening with your horse please cortez,? if you would not mind discussing

He opened his mouth because he was badly broken and then ridden roughly by a very uneducated rider (both things in the UK, BTW - he was bred in Spain and imported as a two year old). I didn't really "do" anything unusual - he had scar tissue inside his mouth, many horses do actually - and just rode him quietly and gently. He really relaxed and got happy in his mouth when I began riding him in a curb bit, one-handed, practically no contact; took nearly five years mind you. He was an exceptionally sensitive soul, but the second half of his life was happy.

 

[eahotson]

Lovely to hear his story at least had a happy ending.

 

[Cortez]

Lovely to hear his story at least had a happy ending.

He did indeed.

 

[Carlosmum]

Having spent 2 days stewarding in the dressage at Blenheim, I was shocked to see how many of the horses were in flash nosebands. A few presented in double bridles, but the majority had their mouths firmly closed. As a very amateur rider I have moved away from flashes and now ride my ponies in a plain snaffle and cavesson. We have no issues with chomping the bit. I wonder how the professionals would get on if they took a step back.

 

[ycbm]

why do you think he wants to open his mouth, if thats what he is doing

why do you use a flash?

I use a Micklem, not a flash, because it's what works best for us.
.

 

[tristar]

He opened his mouth because he was badly broken and then ridden roughly by a very uneducated rider (both things in the UK, BTW - he was bred in Spain and imported as a two year old). I didn't really "do" anything unusual - he had scar tissue inside his mouth, many horses do actually - and just rode him quietly and gently. He really relaxed and got happy in his mouth when I began riding him in a curb bit, one-handed, practically no contact; took nearly five years mind you. He was an exceptionally sensitive soul, but the second half of his life was happy.

so glad to hear a happy ending

 

[Wishfilly]

Going back to the actual study, I do think it makes some really interesting points- like e.g. slightly in front of the vertical being more harshly marked than behind the vertical. I also think it's interesting to look at the behaviours judges respond to, and it's definitely interesting to consider the tack used.

There's probably an argument that there's no reason for dressage horses to be ridden in anything other than a cavesson noseband- and I do think it's interesting that whilst grackles are now allowed, riding with no noseband still isn't.

I do think the final line of the abstract is perhaps poorly chosen, though. (Or perhaps deliberately chosen?).

 

[sbloom]

Going back to the actual study, I do think it makes some really interesting points- like e.g. slightly in front of the vertical being more harshly marked than behind the vertical.

Especially when you remind yourself that the FEI rules say the face should be in front of the vertical, except in piaffe when it may come to the vertical, and that was a relatively recent rule change, maybe 15-20 years ago. Before that on the vertical was incorrect, full stop.

 

[shortstuff99]

Interesting analysis on the scores from the Grand Prix at the BD national championships.

Piaffe and rein back were the lowest scoring moves by quite a way (issues with training foundations? Submission?)

There was also significant differences between movements to the left and right.

https://www.facebook.com/1099673751...EU9kx9X2wyhJida3eAbgBCev9jj1WFnjYgF9vRq4eH3l/

 

[sbloom]

Piaffe and rein back were the lowest scoring moves by quite a way (issues with training foundations? Submission?)

They'll probably get rid of them, as they did the "rocker" (the double rein back) and the tougher requirements of piaffe.

 

[shortstuff99]

They'll probably get rid of them, as they did the "rocker" (the double rein back) and the tougher requirements of piaffe.

The new shortened GP they were using last year in the world cup series already got rid of the rein back and a lot of the piaffe...

 

[sbloom]

The new shortened GP they were using last year in the world cup series already got rid of the rein back and a lot of the piaffe...

Despairs...

 

[eahotson]

If you want to see rein back done well watch a decent western rider.

 

[LEC]

I read a while ago one of the big issues why reining horses have to quit is they begin to anticipate all the moves especially the slides so they are not as good and especially as the patterns don’t change much.

 

[eahotson]

Depends on the rider/trainer.There are of course, poor western riders/trainers as there are English or continental ones.The good ones don't do a lot of slides once they have taught the horse. They practice a little before a competition and they vary their patterns more when schooling.As a dressage rider varies moves when schooling.

 

[eahotson]

Meant to also say that there is a lot more to western than reining.I love it but there are no really good trainers where I live.

 

[j1ffy]

The new shortened GP they were using last year in the world cup series already got rid of the rein back and a lot of the piaffe...

This isn't accurate. There was an original trial shortened GP a couple of years ago that removed the rein-back, but it received terrible feedback and a lot of riders objected to the rein-back being removed as it's well-recognised as a key indicator of correct training.

This is the 2021 GP, updated in 2022: https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Short Grand Prix 2022.pdf

Does a GP really need more than two piaffes to prove the training..?

 

[shortstuff99]

This isn't accurate. There was an original trial shortened GP a couple of years ago that removed the rein-back, but it received terrible feedback and a lot of riders objected to the rein-back being removed as it's well-recognised as a key indicator of correct training.

This is the 2021 GP, updated in 2022: https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Short Grand Prix 2022.pdf

Does a GP really need more than two piaffes to prove the training..?

I watched most of the world cup and could've sworn they still weren't doing the rein back. They obviously didn't like it as I had read they were going to back to full GP for this season.

A normal GP has 3 lots of extended/medium trots, why does it need that many? I think that could be said for a lot of the GP moves. The piaffe is one of the top moves of collection and getting rid of some of it because it is hard for certain types of horses just seems a backward step to me.

 

[tristar]

funny thing to get rid of things that are designed to set the horse up for the next movements! to set the balance, prove the training a little hiatus to reset after lengthening

what is it , a circus?

 

[sbloom]

funny thing to get rid of things that are designed to set the horse up for the next movements! to set the balance, prove the training a little hiatus to reset after lengthening

what is it , a circus?

The rocker was the ultimate test of balance, control, collection...no surprise it went.

 

[stangs]

a lot of riders objected to the rein-back being removed as it's well-recognised as a key indicator of correct training.

Mind you, if they really wanted to demonstrate correct training through a reinback, they'd ask for a reinback away from the arena side. Reining patterns always have the reinback on the centre line, presumably to highlight whether a horse has been trained to back up straight or not.