Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?

No one has yet answered my question, do you hunt solely to help the farmers and save the foxes from having to be shot which may lead to a slow death?
I didn't know people were so thoughtful, and to pay to help them out too, truly charitable
 
Annielusian said:
Foxes have enemies, but no animal has a diet of fox. Fish are a different story entirely.
That would make humans pray, because sometimes we get eaten by lions. We're top predator!
Just because one animal kills another, doesn't mean the dead animal was pray. I've witnessed a horse kill a dog (A dog that had done nothing wrong to the horse) does that make a horse a predator? No.
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In that case no, the horse doesnt eat the dog? (Well I hope not). The Lion will eat the human in which case and in that instance we are his prey. Overall yes we are the top predator but it is not a hard and fast rule. All of those animals in that list will prey on the fox, they will kill the fox and will eat it. You don't have to have a strict diet of an animal for it to be considered prey.

Definition of prey, noun; An animal hunted and killed by another for food.

It doesn't say it is exclusive
 
Annielusian said:
Foxes have enemies, but no animal has a diet of fox. Fish are a different story entirely.
That would make humans pray, because sometimes we get eaten by lions. We're top predator!
Just because one animal kills another, doesn't mean the dead animal was pray. I've witnessed a horse kill a dog (A dog that had done nothing wrong to the horse) does that make a horse a predator? No.
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In ecology, predation describes a biological interaction where a predator (an organism that is hunting) feeds on its prey (the organism that is attacked) ... The key characteristic of predation however is the predator's direct impact on the prey population.
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wikipedia, too lazy to get a proper source, but this is what it says in my ecology text book too...

It's not the act of killing that makes an animal predator or its victim prey, but the eating afterwards - and the predator-prey relationship.

So no, the horse killing a dog is not predator-prey relationship. The shark is, the lion killing human is predator-prey - i.e the nonsense about eye positioning is NOT the definition of prey animals.

Prey animals often have eyes on either side of their head to allow them to be more successful as prey animals. This is basic evolutionary theory - the species adapts to become more proficient at surviving and replicating within its niche - so a prey animal develops means of being more successful as such. An animal does not come into being as a prey animal because it has eyes on either side of its head - unless you're into creationism...
 
Countrychic said:
No one has yet answered my question, do you hunt solely to help the farmers and save the foxes from having to be shot which may lead to a slow death?
I didn't know people were so thoughtful, and to pay to help them out too, truly charitable
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Do I hunt, no not regularly, I have been twice since 2003

Was it solely to kill a fox for the farmer? no it was not, the killing of a fox really bothered me. It was to experience the hunt so I could get an impression of what it was about to help me make an informed decision.

Would I hunt to stop a fox from being shot which may lead to a slow death? Yes I would, If every time a fox was shot it was guaranteed to be a slow death, that would be a lot worse than hunting with hounds for the short chase that ensues prior to the first hound getting to the fox.

Do I think hunting with Hounds is the right and only answer. No

Do I think that killing a fox with a gun is the right and only answer. No

Do I think that poisoning a fox is the right and only answer. No definately not.

Do I think that laying snares to catch a fox is the right and only answer. No, I don't like snareing.

Do I think that hunting with hounds has a part in helping control, disperse and improve the fox population. Yes

Do I think that shooting has a part in helping control, disperse, and improve the fox population. Yes and No, it has the means to control but it isn't selective and it removes survival of the fittest.

Do I think that poisoning has a part.... No not really, it is not selective and you can't guarantee it is a fox you get!

Do I think that snareing has a part.... No I don't like snaring.
 
My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!! :D
 
Puzzles said:
I daren't answer, but there's a lot I could say. I disagree with fox-hunting on ethical grounds. There. ;)
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There is no reason not to answer, people answering and replying to the thread make it an interesting debate, you may have information that would sway the discussion one way or another. It doesn't matter if your views are for or against, right or wrong. It is only with people views can the thread get richer!

It has given me quite a lot to think about today, and to discuss a polarised topic to get differing opinions is great
 
AprilBlossom said:
My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!! :D
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Yea, but Chihuahua's are man-made mutants (No offence, I actually really like them) so there's no natural evolution there.
I'm sorry, but foxes are not prey animals. Sure, another animal can kill and eat a fox, making that particular fox prey, but as a species, they are not.
 
AprilBlossom said:
My sausage dog has front facing eyes yet my chihuahua has sidey eyes...I hope to god I don't find the sausage dog eating the chi one day, had better keep them seperate in case she gets all predator on him!! :D
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This made me laugh quite a lot! I have visions of a sausage dog charging round after the Chihuahua (Thats not easy to spell!)
 
Ok, well while I don't deny that there are (or rather, can be) positive about fox hunting overall I think the negatives by far outweight those positives. To make it easier I'm going to bullet point!

Pros

- Keeps in use/encourages the use of countryside rights of way, thus encouraging the maintenance of the countryside and its rights of way.
- The social, riding and traditional aspects are very enjoyable.
- The fox population can be controlled, if deemed necessary at all.

Cons

- Because it is difficult/impossible to control where the fox runs, it is all too easy for riders and hounds to trespass over land that they don't have permission to use.
- Due to the ^above^ point, precious areas of land such as farm land, protected habitats and private land can be damaged or destroyed by the ground being trashed and disturbed.
- Thus farmers/land owners get angry and ban anyone from riding or using their land, reducing places for other riders to ride in.
- Due to the same first 'con' point, it isn't unknown for hunts to ride across busy roads and even dual carriageways (I've seen it) which puts both the riders and hounds at risk (I've seen this too).
- As stated in my 1st post, I find it highly inethical re. the way in which the foxes are flushed out and chased until they are too exahusted or are caught. At which point naturally, the dogs lay upon the fox until they are (with mixed sucess considering the strength of the canine predatory/hunt instinct) called off the fox and the fox is shot. This in no way replicates any kind of natural or evolutionary animal method of hunting.
- The concept of killing something (particularly in such a way) for fun disgusts me.
- Hunting usually means an awful lot of standing around waiting - this is far less the case with drag hunts, because the trail is planned and passage is easier and safer.
- There are perfectly effective and more humane alternative methods of fox population control.
- Most foxes live in urban areas anyway...

I'll stop there :)

Drag huntng on the other hand, is awesome: false trail, bloodhounds, great fun, traditional and social, great riding, foxes are (technically but not in practise) safe, only land that has permission to be ridden on is used - everyone's happy!

I absolutely love (ethical) hunting! :D
 
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Our land hasn't got permission to ride on but after 20 years we still get the same response..
" sorry we thought it was ****** land ?'
Yeah right !!! And your whipper in is the same lady who worked for MAFF and slaughtered all our stock during foot and mouth cull .
 
Moomin1 said:
As title says!!
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  • Why is this not in the hunting Forum?
  • What is the reason/point for this query? - A poll might achieve a more accurate response to this question
  • The Forum is called H&H otherwise Horse and Hound btw not F&B aka Fox and Bunny the last time I looked...
  • Please refer to the Hunting Act 2004 before posting - this is how the law currently stands LINK
  • The same level of uninfomed opinion against Fox Hunting is generally being put forwarded as before the Hunting Act - It would be nice to move on

And especially for the OP :) THe Wooden Spoon Award for Stirring S***

tumblr_ls59qr9Yar1qcqjlf.jpg
 
The-mad-cat-lady said:
Our land hasn't got permission to ride on but after 20 years we still get the same response..
" sorry we thought it was ****** land ?'
Yeah right !!! And your whipper in is the same lady who worked for MAFF and slaughtered all our stock during foot and mouth cull .
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The-mad-cat-lady said:
Answer my post please
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My dear Mad cat lady...I am presuming you are not refering to myself?

To whom is your post directed?
 
Annielusian said:
I'm sorry, but foxes are not prey animals. Sure, another animal can kill and eat a fox, making that particular fox prey, but as a species, they are not.
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I'm sorry but you are wrong, as were the previous claims on this thread.

Predator-prey relationships are complex. It's not as simple as defining "prey" species and "predator" species. There are base line prey species - such as the horse who do not routinely kill other animals to eat them. They often exhibit the phenomena you describe as the "definition" of a prey species - large fields of vision with limited specific point accuity, due to eyes positioned on either side of head. That doesn't mean they aren't capable of killing in self-defence - or even killing and eating in a predatory fashion, though this is less common and unlikely to affect the prey population (thus isn't true predation in the ecological sense).

These "prey" species are predated upon by other species, whose common survival traits primarily are evolved to allowed them to hunt - often having "forward facing" eyes - allowing for much greater visual accuity etc. However, these are often, in turn, predated upon by larger predators - e.g. the fox may be predated upon by a wolf - and in this relationship the fox becomes the prey species. That is how the chain works.

An individual of a predatory species may become prey to another predator - e.g. a lion predates a human prey - and I am damnably sure that any human being hunted by a lion would admit that they are prey - and act as prey - in that relationship.

I'm not sure that this has any actual bearing on the debate regarding hunting - but if people are going to make outlandish claims, they ought to be scientifically defensible.

Defining a species as prey by its characteristics in this context is absurd. By the "eye positioning" definition a golden eagle is prey - as is the Tyranosaurus rex :cool:
 
Fiagai said:
  • Why is this not in the hunting Forum?
  • What is the reason/point for this query? - A poll might achieve a more accurate response to this question
  • The Forum is called H&H otherwise Horse and Hound btw not F&B aka Fox and Bunny the last time I looked...
  • Please refer to the Hunting Act 2004 before posting - this is how the law currently stands LINK
  • The same level of uninfomed opinion against Fox Hunting is generally being put forwarded as before the Hunting Act - It would be nice to move on

And especially for the OP :) THe Wooden Spoon Award for Stirring S***

tumblr_ls59qr9Yar1qcqjlf.jpg
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1) It's not in the hunting forum because, GUESS WHAT...the majority of people who access the hunting forum will have a biased opinion towards hunting!! This is a question for ALL users of HHO.
2) Yes, this is Horse And Hound, but the widely varied opinions shown already suggests that many people are not in anyway supportive or interested in the hunting side of things.
3) I am fullly aware of the hunting laws. I am also more than fully aware of the illegal hunting that commonly and regularly still takes place.

Thanks for the award!!:)
 
Yes, I dont understand why chasing an animal the much persecuted fox around fields by a pack of dogs and ripped to shreds(yes they are) is considered a sport or an enjoyment. It gives horse people a hooray henry reputation! A nice clean bullet if a cull is required is humane! But that wouldnt be fair to the riders for their jolly good day out would it?

I have poultry and the fox killed a whole shed of mine. I was not too pleased etc But I do think they need to be controlled ie out of towns etc but I still think a good shot will keep numbers down. Not a pack of dogs in medieval themed charging around countryside is going to really help much.

Foxes do good as well. But hey keep them away from my chickens!Electric fencing.
 
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I didn't expect so many responses, never mind varied ones from this thread. Interesting reading. It wasn't intended, despite some peoples opinions, to stir ***** but I really was interested, not having been on HHO for all that long.
 
I didn't used to agree with it (due to what i had read in the media) but after my boyfriend pointed out what a hypocrite I was being after I was pleased my jack russell caught a rabbit, shook it and killed it, I decided to give it a go and make up my own mind. Went once and was hooked from then on.
 
Moomin1 said:
1) It's not in the hunting forum because, GUESS WHAT...the majority of people who access the hunting forum will have a biased opinion towards hunting!! This is a question for ALL users of HHO.
2) Yes, this is Horse And Hound, but the widely varied opinions shown already suggests that many people are not in anyway supportive or interested in the hunting side of things.
3) I am fullly aware of the hunting laws. I am also more than fully aware of the illegal hunting that commonly and regularly still takes place.
Thanks for the award!!:)
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* So Glad you showed your Bias btw...good to know (that was just too easy imo)

* Yes it is Horse and Hound - I would be quite surprised if Cycling Fanatics turned up On Formula One Forum and then demanded to know who disagreed with Motor Car racing and that just because it was the Formula One Forum they were not in "anyway supportive or interested in Formula One": Hint - Read the Forum title again. Just because it is become somehow fashionable to bang on about ickle foxies and nasty people who hunt, does not make it acceptable to do so here

* I refer you once again to the law as it stands LINK Why the post? Whats your agenda? Belong to a rabid anti group by any chance?

*Reading some of the the replies on here plenty of posters are NOT aware of what the laws are and from what you have written I understand that you appear to occupy the "because I says it is...it is!" brigade

* Just because I dont like Competing (for example) does not mean that I am going to start a S*** Stirring Competition for posters about it and S*** Stirring is not a hobby to be proud off btw...
 
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fburton said:
Nuisances? Yes, they certainly can be!


Fox populations are largely self-regulating, numbers being limited by space available for territory. It doesn't really matter how many are killed each year, the population recovers within a year or two. Therefore, concerns that there would be a population explosion without culling are unwarranted. There is evidence to support this in what happened due to the temporary hunting ban that occurred during the foot-and-mouth outbreak. In any case, many more foxes are killed on the roads than by deliberate hunting/culling. Of course, it can always be argued that the natural population level (i.e. what it would stabilize at without culling) is too high and this used to justify hunting. However, I have some sympathy for local fox control where particular individuals ("rogue foxes") are killing livestock.
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Haven't read all the replies, but on this point, I completely agree. I did a zoology degree many years ago and one of our professors told us that the single biggest killer of foxes is a harsh winter, followed by cars. His view (back before the 'ban') was that fox hunting did nothing to control the fox population and those that did it shouldn't use this as an excuse and actually admit they do it because they enjoy dressing up in pink and torturing animals on a weekend'

His words, not mine BTW....but it did make me chuckle at the time. One of my best friends at uni was (and possibly still is) very pro hunting and she went a deep shade of purple during that lecture....

I agree it is not an effective form of control and would take no part in it myself .

Often problems caused by 'pest species' are exacerbated by the actions of man. The UK's high population and requirement for intensive farming methods has thrown the natural environment out of balance. All the rubbish in all parts of the country have been easy picking for the foxes. I have also seen research that suggests many supposed 'fox kills' were feral dogs. Not all, granted, and I too know what damage they can do in a chicken shed. They can get rather carried away.... But whilst I think its up to a farmer to decide what strategy is best for their own land and wouldn't interfere if they wanted to shoot a few foxes, I personally would take no pleasure in hunting a fox.

We have just moved to NZ - no foxes here, but there are stoats, and lots rabbits! We will be shooting a few rabbits for food. I have a simple rule in life. If you hunt it, you'd better eat it.....
 
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Perhaps there should have been a voting button at the top of this thread - rather than dragging up the old arguments.

Since there isn't and for the record (all of which made illegal ):

Dog Fighting - Against
Badger Baiting - Against
Cock Fighting - Against
Rabbit/Hare Coursing - Against
Fox Hunting - Against
and so forth

Mother Nature is pretty good at looking after itself without mankind putting his foot in it...

..Just leave the cars/vans/lorries in the urban areas to kill the excess fox population - we only need one car for the job - since the creatures have been forced into cities to compete against our own predators - cats.
 
ShrikeThelwell said:
Perhaps there should have been a voting button at the top of this thread - rather than dragging up the old arguments.

Since there isn't and for the record (all of which made illegal ):

Dog Fighting - Against
Badger Baiting - Against
Cock Fighting - Against
Rabbit/Hare Coursing - Against
Fox Hunting - Against
and so forth

Mother Nature is pretty good at looking after itself without mankind putting his foot in it....
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...So if this is true then humans should be controlled by "Mother Nature"...odd the other 7 Billion humans and I obviously live on another planet somewhere else .
 
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