claracanter
Well-Known Member
Have a look at LC's website. She has photos of her on the gallops. She lives right near lambourn, the famous home of many NH trainers.
Kauto doing dressage
- Thread starter Daffodil
- Start date
Have a look at LC's website. She has photos of her on the gallops. She lives right near lambourn, the famous home of many NH trainers.
Clava
Well-Known Member
Exactly, we have hit 39 mph when out hacking and I think that is a reasonable gallop!
Drakerath
Well-Known Member
This thread has highlighted to me how selfish racing 'consumers' can be.
You talk of this legend horse whose legacy as a legend should be left untouched. He might be a legend in your eyes but why don't you all stop and think what is best for the horse not what's best for YOU? Horses with half a brain don't like doing nothing all day - they like parties and variety in their lives!
Also it would be nice to see you all care about the thousands of other racehorses coming out of racing (and into pedigre chum!). You only seemingly care when a horse has won money for you.
So ask a young, sound horse what they would rather do when aged 12 (which in normal horse circles is a horse's prime, not the age to send them off to the rubbish heap to merely plod out with strings of horses going up and down, up and down, up and down gallops, day after day after day after monotonous day). It was KS's lucky day he escaped being the yard's nag.
Ask this horse with half a brain whether it wants to spend the larger part of its life going up and down the same gallops every day for the rest of its life OR do something different most days of the week (as LC will do - she is an event rider who spends a third of her time doing dressage not all) - hacking, schooling, competitions at various venues? LC isnt some conservative dressage rider. If KS shows aptitude for a new career, then she will not shy away from adrenaline rushes!!
It was KS's lucky day the day he left for LC's yard. A lucky escape indeed out of the monotony of being Other People's Plaything. HE is going to continue to have a life, not a sorry excuse with his brain turning to mush.
You talk of this legend horse whose legacy as a legend should be left untouched. He might be a legend in your eyes but why don't you all stop and think what is best for the horse not what's best for YOU? Horses with half a brain don't like doing nothing all day - they like parties and variety in their lives!
Also it would be nice to see you all care about the thousands of other racehorses coming out of racing (and into pedigre chum!). You only seemingly care when a horse has won money for you.
So ask a young, sound horse what they would rather do when aged 12 (which in normal horse circles is a horse's prime, not the age to send them off to the rubbish heap to merely plod out with strings of horses going up and down, up and down, up and down gallops, day after day after day after monotonous day). It was KS's lucky day he escaped being the yard's nag.
Ask this horse with half a brain whether it wants to spend the larger part of its life going up and down the same gallops every day for the rest of its life OR do something different most days of the week (as LC will do - she is an event rider who spends a third of her time doing dressage not all) - hacking, schooling, competitions at various venues? LC isnt some conservative dressage rider. If KS shows aptitude for a new career, then she will not shy away from adrenaline rushes!!
It was KS's lucky day the day he left for LC's yard. A lucky escape indeed out of the monotony of being Other People's Plaything. HE is going to continue to have a life, not a sorry excuse with his brain turning to mush.
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faerie666
Well-Known Member
You are correct, and incorrect:
There are plenty of ex racing TB s who could be re trained, they sell for £500 or less, and some may do well.
Of all the horses I rode in racing [1000 +/-], I rode only one which could have competed at dressage [it was not a good jumper btw],
Funny, I have ridden a similar amount of horses to you, and I'd say quite a few of them would have done dressage with a bit of work. In fact, the yard I'm at at the moment has about 25 horses in work, and I recon 6 or 7 of them could go out and do a respectable prelim test with about a months work
I also rode Viking Flagship occasionally, who was comparable to Kauto Star.......... he enjoyed his retirement as trainers hack, perfectly happy, stayed in the number one box, and did his job on a day to day basis, leading youngsters, hacking out newbies, popping fences, pinging hurdles, pefectly happy.
I have worked in some good NH racing stables, and most horses like being there, obviously some don't.
But they are allowed to walk out naturally on a long rein, not kept "on the bit" and asked to do "movements", OK, when in work, they have to do a bit of hard work every so often, but really, it is an ideal life if they are in the right stable.
In a competative dressage yard he will never go out to grass, probably never allowed to walk naturally.
In NH racing, he has 3-5 months in summer on grass., and is stabled when it is cold and wet, hacked out in comapny, not asked to submit all the time, and no annoyingperson on top concerned to make him look "collected"
What makes you think in a dressage yard he won't be allowed to go out to grass, or walk out on a long rein? As far as I know, most dressage horses are warmed up/cooled down by walking on a long rein, as well as getting breaks during a schooling session.
Some racehorses go hunting to freshen them up. The main aim is to win races, and if that means training them out of a field then that will be done, if it means going to pony club, then so be it. If they need to be hacked they will be hacked, if they need to pop logs, then so be it, if they like hacking out, they get hacked, please do not assume all racehorses are treated the same.
Maybe you should stop assuming all dressage horses are treated the same...
Most yards I have been in have Sunday as day of rest for those in work, that means they get put on walker or turned out in a paddock, only those racing on Monday get a proper 60- 90 mins of excercise. The day after they "work" they get to hack out round fields and so on. I have never ever worked in a yard which does the same thing every day.
I've worked at quite a few racing yards over the last 15 years, and TBH, the ones that turn out or have a varied routine are the exception, especially at big (100+ horses) yards
If PN thought he would be better in a dressage yard, he would have suggested it. If the owner went to a top eventer, would she say...... "no I don't want him............. " "[PS do you pay cash?]"
THe horseis middle aged in human terms , it is too late for him to start gymnastics.
For all we know this is what CS had planned to do, until PN spat his dummy out and told him to move the horse that same day...
Kauto Star will either settle into whatever new career he gets chosen for, or he won't. We won't know until they try.
I for one hope he does, I think it would be lovely to see him out and about doing something new, and I'm sure he'll get the best care in his new home, even if he doesn't make it to the next olympics.
MadisonBelle
Well-Known Member
Have you seen the photo of Kauto with Laura having a trot earlier today? He looks FANTASTIC! Very relaxed.........
I've been a fan of his for years and was delighted to hear he had gone to an Event rider and to have Yogi as his new trainer...... Seriously, would you really turn down the opportunity to have Laura school your horse with Yogi as your eyes???
Had no idea at the time about the "row" between Owner and PN so put that aside and Kauto really is in a win/win situation....... If he hates it I have no doubt that plans will be changed but he may very well thrive! He will certainly still be treated as a winner and always will be. He seems the type to thrive on work. PN himself sad he could not just be retired as such so come on guys, lets give Laura and Yogi a chance...... They're not exactly Joe Blogs are they
Yogi himself is a legend and I'm absolutely sure if the horse hates it he will be straight on the phone to Clive S letting him know. (Yogi that is not Kauto)
As an aside he is probably getting more attention at Laura's than her top Eventers
I've been a fan of his for years and was delighted to hear he had gone to an Event rider and to have Yogi as his new trainer...... Seriously, would you really turn down the opportunity to have Laura school your horse with Yogi as your eyes???
Had no idea at the time about the "row" between Owner and PN so put that aside and Kauto really is in a win/win situation....... If he hates it I have no doubt that plans will be changed but he may very well thrive! He will certainly still be treated as a winner and always will be. He seems the type to thrive on work. PN himself sad he could not just be retired as such so come on guys, lets give Laura and Yogi a chance...... They're not exactly Joe Blogs are they
Yogi himself is a legend and I'm absolutely sure if the horse hates it he will be straight on the phone to Clive S letting him know. (Yogi that is not Kauto)As an aside he is probably getting more attention at Laura's than her top Eventers
dunkley
Well-Known Member
It's got to be less frustrating for him than Eamonn Holmes' suggestion of sending him to stud 
X
xspiralx
Guest
I think you've hit the mark spot on really.
Everyone who has a problem with it, isn't thinking of what is best for the horse. They are thinking only about their perception of him, as an untouchable racing legend, 'too good' for the retraining that so many 'average' racehorses excel in.
But to KS - he is just a horse. He is a fabulous horse, but his needs and wants are no different to any other horse - he isn't some higher being who would find doing an unaffiliated dressage test some kind of humiliation.
12 is no age at all, and KS is an intelligent athlete. I am sure he will excel at a new challenge, and he is under the care of extremely experienced horse people. He is far luckier than millions of other horses that get chucked through the sales each year for a few hundred when they stop winning.
seabsicuit2
Well-Known Member
I wonder if KS's soundness and general health is tricky to manage. No one can keep a horse sounder or healthier than PN and his team. It takes years and years to learn how to manage individual horses, learn all the whims and ways of how their bodies tick and work, how to prevent certain muscular issues occuring, how to manage them, what therapists/vets to manage them and particular manipulation/theraputic techniques etc etc, when to push the exercise to work through particular stiffness or when not to push it.
All these thousands of little details- which take an eternity to learn- could mean that KS is likely to not thrive in another yard, no matter how professional they are. Could be why the team at Ditcheat are so upset?
All these thousands of little details- which take an eternity to learn- could mean that KS is likely to not thrive in another yard, no matter how professional they are. Could be why the team at Ditcheat are so upset?
Drakerath
Well-Known Member
I wonder if KS's soundness and general health is tricky to manage. No one can keep a horse sounder or healthier than PN and his team. It takes years and years to learn how to manage individual horses, learn all the whims and ways of how their bodies tick and work, how to prevent certain muscular issues occuring, how to manage them, what therapists/vets to manage them and particular manipulation/theraputic techniques etc etc, when to push the exercise to work through particular stiffness or when not to push it.
All these thousands of little details- which take an eternity to learn- could mean that KS is likely to not thrive in another yard, no matter how professional they are. Could be why the team at Ditcheat are so upset?
Racing is about the most punishing activity any horse can do, even if it is bred for it. No wonder that trainers spend a fortune on "therapists, manipulation" and what not. When a sport goes through horses faster than I get through Pinot Grigio, you know you are pushing a species up to (and beyond) its natural limit.
Every thought why other equine displines don't need to rely on "therapists" like racing trainers do? ..... They aren't punishing the equine body in the same way, that's why.
KS is going to be taken back to basics and to have his body made strong and supple.
The irony is that he won't need expensive poncey "therapists" to right his ills because he will be given the opportunity to build muscles in places he has never had the chance to. He will strengthen naturally and will no long need props to keep his body on the road. Nor will his body be subjected to extreme pressure (like racing).
He stands a better chance making it into a real retirement (like over 20 years old) if he is schooled and what not over the next 8 years rather than just hacked up to the gallops and back 7 x 365 x 8 times.
Oh and PLENTY of people in this country are capable of looking after horses as well as PN or a myriad of other horsey people out there. Stop putting individuals (both horses AND people) on pedastals. It's ridiculous and a tad ignorant. I'm sure PN himself would readily admit he does not know it all.
A
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I purposely haven't read any replies and know I will get shot down in flames but I can't help feeling very sorry for the horse going from an adrenaline fuelled fun filled career to boring old stressage; such a shame for him - and I would say that no matter who he was going to. Such a shame he can't do a Denman whether that be through soundness issues or his owner doesn't like it (I don't know which it is but I presume it's something of the sort, I wouldn't imagine PN actually wanting a boring life for him).
oldvic
Well-Known Member
I am sure KS needs managing. PN used to be full of criticism for how Best Mate was nurtured with few races a season but his tuned suddenly changed half way through KS's career and said that he didn't want to run him often. He had 4 crashing falls and hasn't always looked good behind. Clifford Baker states in the Racing Post today that he is not a good mover which covers a multitude of sins!
I am not Paul Nicholls number one fan but many of his old favourites have gone to do other things. There has to be a reason why he was so adamant that he feels this one would not adapt to or cope with another career.
For those that think all horses must have variety, remember they don't think like us and some are stressed by doing different things. We might think it is monotonous to do the same thing every day but some highly strung horses are much happier if they know what they are going to do.
He is in the best of hands so his welfare is assured but I still find it an uncomfortable situation.
I am not Paul Nicholls number one fan but many of his old favourites have gone to do other things. There has to be a reason why he was so adamant that he feels this one would not adapt to or cope with another career.
For those that think all horses must have variety, remember they don't think like us and some are stressed by doing different things. We might think it is monotonous to do the same thing every day but some highly strung horses are much happier if they know what they are going to do.
He is in the best of hands so his welfare is assured but I still find it an uncomfortable situation.
Drakerath
Well-Known Member
Do you think his owner has purposeful sought out a "boring life" then? What an odd comment!
I also think you are guilty of looking at this whole situation through your own human eyes and not those of a horse.
In all this, we should be looking to give Kauto Star the highest quality of life over his remaining years, which should be many.
Will his brain, body and sould be best served hacking up the same road every day for the rest of his life to the nearby gallops, from where he can watch other horses get fit and get loaded up and taken to parties
OR
get reschooled in dressage and since he has been placed with EVENT rider Laura Collect (and not a pure dressage yard) it is not unreasonable to assume that KS may well be exposed to other disciplines IF he takes to the reschooling part first
OR
something else????
From personal experience, the transition from racehorse to hunt horse is possibly the hardest to make (umm bar show jumper perhaps!). When they do make it, they are AMAZING but hunting can blow the brain of many-a-racehorse and it can be too tough on their legs (if they have raced , they may well already have leg strains). Thorughbreds aren't always the toughest.
I would imagine that placing KS with Laura Collect is a bit like a Harry Potter Sorting Hat. They are going to see how things go and where his future may best lay FOR HIM - not for the punters who want to remember the past by in freezing him in time "as a racehorse". KS is no longer a racehorse and I think he has done enough to warrant a little time and effort giving him a chance at another LIFE.
I don't count hacking up to the gallops and back as a life. That is for old nags who can't do much else. KS is much, much more than some glorified mickey-mouse mascot intended to bring fame to the yard he has retired in.
Perhaps *that* is why the staff are, in part, so sour???? Perhaps they feel robbed? I don't doubt their love for him but to deny him a fulfilling life from here on here smacks of sour grapes if you ask me.
be positive
Well-Known Member
His life at Ditcheat, apart from racing days, consisted of walking down the road, going up the hill gallop, back down the road up the gallop 3 times a day, almost every day, the odd spin on the flat gallop, or over some jumps in the arena, no hacking in fields, it is not like Newmarket or Lambourn with a real variety of places to go.
He, like all the horses there, lives a rather dull life, without the racing being kept in a training yard where he would be kept fit but never using that fitness would he not be bored, having a new yard, varied hacking and consistent work should keep body and mind occupied for many years.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Yes, well pretty clear you don't actually work with racehorses. We used to send some of ours hunting, not after re-training, but with a professional jock up top. This is a long standing method of keeping them sweet. I used to ride Diet, a flat racer, all he ever saw was the racecourse at Ayr, and Hamilton, and occasional hacks on the roads, and he was perfectly happy, ran in handicaps till he was in his teens!
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Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Surely by that logic, you feel sorry for every OTTB who makes their ammie owners very happy bimbling around lower level dressage tests. Tell that to OTTB owners who ride dressage.
be positive
Well-Known Member
I have already described KS's daily exercise routine, it may not be how your racehorses were worked but the walk on the road up the gallops is rarely changed, it is boring for the horses, the riders also look bored most of the time.
Drakerath
Well-Known Member
Well, if he does have soundness issues or muscle strains, then some time spent schooling can only help him, even if he then has to revert to just being a yard nag. At least he was given the opportunity of another life.
We should not write KS off without giving him that chance should we? That would be unfair on him. No 12 year old should be consigned to the slag heap without having a crack at another more interesting existence. It is for KS to decide whether he enjoys the variety of being in an event yard.
If he genuinely does not cope with it, then the owner can have him back to retire. I hardly think a life of hacking up the road and back at Ditcheat is one to write home about and other avenues should be explored first.
Drakerath
Well-Known Member
No I do have experience. I used to ride out for a yard and now stick to hunting and eventing, but two of my horses are ex 'chasers that I have converted.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
I do feel sorry for any horse which has to endure stressage as their only form of work; doesn't matter whether it's a TB or a cob, all the same to me but to a horse, never ending circles in a school must be boring even if it isn't for their riders.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
As Kauto's going to an event yard, I doubt it will be his only form of work. I agree with you that horses should have variety and dressage horses should be cross-trained with jumping, hacking out, hunting, or whatever else their owner fancies. Many are. The ones I've met (we're not talking professional yards here; just average amateur owners riding or showing at lower levels) who don't get to hack out are owned by people with confidence issues, who are terrified of leaving the safe confines of the school. Again, not a problem Kauto will have.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
Many competition riders use therapists as much if not more than racehorse trainers and dressage is known to be one of the hardest disciplines on the horse's body. There is a limit to how much suppleness he can develop at his age but just because he isn't strong in a dressage way doesn't mean that he has no muscle, he just has galloping muscles not carrying muscles. It is not wrong, it is different.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
1) How do you KNOW she won't end up eventing him? If she finds he has an aptitude, even at unaffiliated level, what a fun second career for him.
2) How do you KNOW she'll get fed up riding him? She might really like riding him . . . and I'm pretty sure CS will have sent KS to her yard on condition that only certain people do ride him - given how valuable he is.
3) What's so horrible about a) riding a new horse as soon as possible; and b) riding in an indoor school? Some racing yards so actually school their youngsters indoors - I know this b/c a friend of mine/fellow livery rescues and rehabilitates OTTs.
Seriously, I don't understand all this flapping . . . not to mention all the speculation. At the end of the day, the horse belongs to CS . . . not PN, not you and not me.
P
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
No I have never wondered that, because they DO
All the top showjumpers, dressage horses and eventers make extensive use of "therapists".
Marydoll
Well-Known Member
My horse events, mainly rc and low level affilliated, and i use therapists, for her and me nothing wrong in that
nothing wrong in thatPenniless
Well-Known Member
Just announced on radio -he is not now parading.
PolarSkye
Well-Known Member
Good. If he's being retired from racing life and embarking on training in a different discipline, then he needs to stay away from the track to keep his head engaged in his new way of life.
P
Daffodil
Well-Known Member
Inevitable. Very sad that his fans have been deprived of the chance to see him and bid farewell to him on the racecourse.
Probably just as well though. It wouldn't have been quite the same with the new team, supportive of them as I am.
Could all have been avoided if PN hadn't thrown his toys out of the pram when he did.
And they've renamed the Feltham in his honour.... bit of a balls up all round really.
Probably just as well though. It wouldn't have been quite the same with the new team, supportive of them as I am.
Could all have been avoided if PN hadn't thrown his toys out of the pram when he did.
And they've renamed the Feltham in his honour.... bit of a balls up all round really.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I personally don't think it's a given that racehorses enjoy parading but it would have benn nice for his fans to see have a good bye party that's probally down to PN and his team if the had kept the horse until boxing day he could have done the parade and then quietly gone off to his new home in the new year but heyho I doult the horse cares a jot.
claracanter
Well-Known Member
I'm a huge racing fan, worked in a racing yard many moons ago and have rehomed ex racers BUT I think racing needs to get it's act together.
What with Frankie last week and now this very public falling out over KS, it could undo all the good work done by Frankel for the image of racing in the UK.
What with Frankie last week and now this very public falling out over KS, it could undo all the good work done by Frankel for the image of racing in the UK.
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Fantasy_World
Well-Known Member
Do you have photos or evidence to back this up?
Say a copy of Nicholls's training diary?
If not then stop banging on about how you believe he was trained unless you saw every move this horse made at Ditcheat.