Liver issue/grumpy?

[BBP]

Admittedly mine was years ago but had both sucralfate and omeprazole in his feed, 2x per day, no splitting or time delayed between etc. Healed up really well even on that protocol. Hardest part was he’s so fussy and the omeprazole was absolutely grim (I tried a tiny bit!) with the longest vile aftertaste. So took a while to find a way to get it into him. Sucralfate was no issue.

 

[Michen]

Admittedly mine was years ago but had both sucralfate and omeprazole in his feed, 2x per day, no splitting or time delayed between etc. Healed up really well even on that protocol. Hardest part was he’s so fussy and the omeprazole was absolutely grim (I tried a tiny bit!) with the longest vile aftertaste. So took a while to find a way to get it into him. Sucralfate was no issue.

But I can't do that unless he's fed it at 6am before all the horses get their morning hay etc. And to do that I have to be here, constantly for what- a month plus?

Barn hands here are not like in the UK. Whilst they are very good their horse knowledge and handling is limited.

 

[hollyandivy123]

But I can't do that unless he's fed it at 6am before all the horses get their morning hay etc. And to do that I have to be here, constantly for what- a month plus?

ok take a breath, put the kettle on and have a cup of tea,

then talk to a vet about the symptoms, assessment and the possibility of scoping and then with the facts make a plan

 

[Michen]

ok take a breath, put the kettle on and have a cup of tea,

then talk to a vet about the symptoms, assessment and the possibility of scoping and then with the facts make a plan

Thank you xxx

 

[EnduroRider]

Weekly Omeprazole injections are given off licence in the UK but as has been said, options may may be different over there. I have just completed a round of injections with mine and they were successful in perfectly clearing up grade 4 ulcers but had more treatment been required I'd have gone back to oral omeprazole as I have successfully used previously. My horse, who is normally fine to inject, reacted quite severely to the injections, he had to be twitched or sedated to inject in the hind quarters and when it was given in the neck (to avoid the quarters when he was also having a hind end lameness work up) he had huge swellings which left him sore at the time and still with a lump in his neck a month on. I'm sure I've read of others not tolerating the injections well on here.

 

[Peglo]

Give pepper a cuddle and try not to worry. I’m sure speaking to your vet will give you a clearer head.

 

[SEL]

But I can't do that unless he's fed it at 6am before all the horses get their morning hay etc. And to do that I have to be here, constantly for what- a month plus?

Barn hands here are not like in the UK. Whilst they are very good their horse knowledge and handling is limited.

I got a not great livery yard to just syringe it in before giving her breakfast - no delay because they just couldn't accommodate that.

Are they ok with adding supplements if you made them up in containers? You could try the off licence granules (Alber?) for a bit.

 

[Michen]

I got a not great livery yard to just syringe it in before giving her breakfast - no delay because they just couldn't accommodate that.

Are they ok with adding supplements if you made them up in containers? You could try the off licence granules (Alber?) for a bit.

Yes I'm just looking at Abler but I bet he won't eat them easily. And the ulcer horses here seem to be on 3 times a day medication!! A combo of drugs.

I need to figure out

- scope or not scope for now, if scope how am I going to get him there easily/when or do I change to a mobile vet
- treat for a few weeks with something like Abler and figure out a way to get it adminstered/don't go back to the UK in two weeks and mostly be able to do it myself, bar any work travel
- injectable omeprazole if they even do it here

A scope is undoubtedly in his future at some point it's just whether I crack on now with some meds, realistically if I need to take him in to my existing practice it could be 10-12 days before I can get him in.

 

[hollyandivy123]

Yes I'm just looking at Abler but I bet he won't eat them easily. And the ulcer horses here seem to be on 3 times a day medication!! A combo of drugs.

I need to figure out

- scope or not scope for now, if scope how am I going to get him there easily/when or do I change to a mobile vet
- treat for a few weeks with something like Abler and figure out a way to get it adminstered/don't go back to the UK in two weeks and mostly be able to do it myself, bar any work travel
- injectable omeprazole if they even do it here

A scope is undoubtedly in his future at some point it's just whether I crack on now with some meds, realistically if I need to take him in to my existing practice it could be 10-12 days before I can get him in.

cup of tea and possibly a biscuit, what's the weather like?

 

[Michen]

cup of tea and possibly a biscuit, what's the weather like?

Ahhh man I wish I had biscuits in the house. I did drink a bucket of wine last night, thank goodness I have housemates above me who scooped me up!

Not sure yet, it’s pitch black and 4am I imagine cold and sunny though…

 

[Penguin_Toes]

Mine had weekly injections of omeprazole which cleared up grade 4 bleeding ulcers in six weeks, no issues or problems, no starving beforehand or any special management needed at all really. Would highly recommend!

 

[Michen]

Mine had weekly injections of omeprazole which cleared up grade 4 bleeding ulcers in six weeks, no issues or problems, no starving beforehand or any special management needed at all really. Would highly recommend!

Thank you for this! That’s really great to hear.

 

[palo1]

It's probably a naff contribution to things but ime beet can make some horses a bit uncomfortable in the gut too; whilst you are working out what to do and creating a plan can you simplify his diet even more? Just a thought. Your barn and vet sound really good so if it were me I would simplify the diet whilst you are waiting to sort transport for a scope and then go from there.

 

[Michen]

It's probably a naff contribution to things but ime beet can make some horses a bit uncomfortable in the gut too; whilst you are working out what to do and creating a plan can you simplify his diet even more? Just a thought. Your barn and vet sound really good so if it were me I would simplify the diet whilst you are waiting to sort transport for a scope and then go from there.

My UK vet said beet was a good option for the liver.. I'm worried about him dropping weight if I strip him right back to timothy hay pellets only as I don't think he will eat them alone for very long... tricky. I've only just put him on a bit over the last few days but could take it out...

 

[tda]

And breathe it seems like the scope is the best way to go, so just make the call and see what they say . Don't think past that for the moment x

Edited to add, he is a native pony, you say he is looking better than ever, honestly just try hay only, he might surprise you

 

[Frano]

Is there some one at the yard he does not like. Possibly they don ‘t handle him well?

 

[JGC]

Mine was just treated with the Abler sachets and she's really difficult about taking them - I ended up just mixing them with linseed oil and she just licked them out of the bucket. It was the easiest way for me, as I'm not able to go every day either.

 

[Michen]

Thanks everyone, I'm going to speak with my vet and make a plan. There's a few things to think about, the liver issue and timing can't be coincidental.

 

[Tacobell]

when i had my guy treated for ulcers, i went for omeprazole as didnt have to worry about feeding times. my vet showed me to to inject and i did it myself every 10 days. i had to have a helper twitch him and hold him still but wasnt an issue

 

[Ouch05]

I moved my horses due to work from one end of the county to the other, the TB looked amazing to start with a the place (DIY) but I could tell something was not right. So got the vet out and very very low liver enzymes. He went straight on the the max dose of Vet E, moved yards (this was always the plan as was holding waiting for space) also went on a full front and hind gut Alber treatment. A couple of weeks and back to normal.

I would treat for front and hind gut, Vit E and remove as you already have the sugar hard feed. I think he might need more hay as well.

 

[Michen]

That’s really interesting thanks. I’ve bought him a barefoot proper balancer as part of his feed over hall.

Im at the barn now and just not seeing a grumpy horse. It’s so weird. He’s all sweetness and niceties. I have no concerns about his handlers or him disliking them but I wonder if he’s become a bit possessive of his corner stable, I dunno

Will see what vet says but step one is fix the basics I think. Get the hay sorted in turnout and fully moved off the compound feed.

The vit e is such a good point. My friend also reminded me he always gets grumpy at this time of year. Altho we both agree not like the reported lunging. Coat change? Generally being run down? Historically i put it down to spring grass gut changes but no grass here yet.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If he does have hind gut issues, then palatability of the recommended herbs shouldn't be a problem. Most horses (inc my 3) hoover their added herbs. The base 3 herbs to encourage a healthy hind gut are dried oregano, rosemary, thyme. You can add various extra hedgerow herbs as well - dried hawthorn, nettle, dandelion, clivers etc.

Most horses would benefit from this anyway, unless they are lucky enough to live on unimproved wild or meadow pasture and hay incorporating a wide variety of plant species.

 

[Hallo2012]

Sorry i should have added I've weaned him off the sugary shit as soon as I got the liver enzymes back. Now on timothy hay pellets, a little beet, milk thistle etc.

Urgh it's 4am and I'm in floods of tears wondering wtf to do.

ugh, horses are SO hard and i always say just big jigsaws-as soon as one bit drops out the whole thing can go and you never know which bit went first.

sorting the feed is deffo step 1, i personally wouldn't scope purely as i think it can increase stress levels. I would treat with sucralfate and see where you are in a fortnight- i have always just sprinkled the granules on top of feed right before serving.

 

[mini-eventer]

Mine is a right grump during coat changes, I always start questioning ulcers but then he comes back to his normal lovely self. He is the same everything although worse in Autumn than spring.

 

[w1bbler]

Is he happy for you to touch him everywhere, any sensitive spots. Ulcery horses usually respond to certain palpation spots, Google them if you are not aware.
I would not give omeprazole just incase, its a strong medication with side effects & should only be given if you are sure he has ulcers, it can also aggivate hind gut issued, hence usually prescribed with suculfrate which protects the hind gut.
Stop breath & don't panic, so many things can cause grumpiness, discomfort somewhere, but don't leap to it being gut.
I had one that was grumpy due to front foot pain, she was bilaterally lame so hard to spot. Not suggesting that is his issue, it's just an example of what grasping at one possibility ( the ulcers) is not the best response.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Also can anyone advise about ulcer treatment whose done it recently? I recall and injection being feasible and this would be much better in terms of me being away etc...

But two horses at the barn are currently on ulcer meds and they are getting some very complex pastes and mixes 3 times a day!

Mim is on injection four and due to rescope shortly. Fingers crossed.

She has been absolutely fine about the injections. She glares at me but doesn’t try to move away.

 

[Michen]

Ok spoke to lovely vet at barn who boards there and her clinic does mobile scoping. They wouldn’t even be able to do him for two weeks. Will see what my main vet (has to go in for scope) there says.

She suggested maybe just trying omeprazole and seeing if it makes any diff, for a couple of weeks and then having scope booked as back up if needed. I queried Abler but doesn’t seem like vets here are convinced that the delivery method is as good as gastroguard?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What exactly is he eating? There are so many feed and supplements in the US that you should be able to find something that'll work for him.

I would say that ulcers are a very high possibility with everything yes been through. When I had to sell my last horse because he couldn't move with me/could not be imported due to the blood test debacle his new owner noticed a very subtle sign and had him scoped. He had grade 3 ulcers. He was good in his coat, weight, and just fine under saddle. He's a sensitive soul, so she suspects that although he's been at her place before (she owns the yard), the ownership change was a huge change for him. So they can look healthy on the outside, and even her vet was surprised because he didn't look ulcery.

I like to scope because I just like to know what I'm working with before and after. I've not scoped in the past and just treated and spent a lot of time wondering, when I would've preferred more definitive proof, but that's just me.

So I would scope, personally.

The liver could just be in addition to, and not the sole thing.

You shouldn't have an issue sourcing injectable treatment from a vet there...I know others in the US that have used injections.

 

[Michen]

What exactly is he eating? There are so many feed and supplements in the US that you should be able to find something that'll work for him.

I would say that ulcers are a very high possibility with everything yes been through. When I had to sell my last horse because he couldn't move with me/could not be imported due to the blood test debacle his new owner noticed a very subtle sign and had him scoped. He had grade 3 ulcers. He was good in his coat, weight, and just fine under saddle. He's a sensitive soul, so she suspects that although he's been at her place before (she owns the yard), the ownership change was a huge change for him. So they can look healthy on the outside, and even her vet was surprised because he didn't look ulcery.

I like to scope because I just like to know what I'm working with before and after. I've not scoped in the past and just treated and spent a lot of time wondering, when I would've preferred more definitive proof, but that's just me.

So I would scope, personally.

The liver could just be in addition to, and not the sole thing.

You shouldn't have an issue sourcing injectable treatment from a vet there...I know others in the US that have used injections.

He was eating Hygain balanced and showtorque. I know I know.

Now on Timothy hay pellets with a little beet.

they can’t get him in for a scope for two weeks, mobile vets anyway. But I want to start treating him now.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

He was eating Hygain balanced and showtorque. I know I know.

Now on Timothy hay pellets with a little beet.

they can’t get him in for a scope for two weeks, mobile vets anyway. But I want to start treating him now.

I suppose you could just treat then.

Lots of feed stuffs out there. Triple Crown Senior used to be all the rage years ago, don't know if it still is.

Mine just eats hay and a basic local pellet mix...but he doesn't really do much with his life aside from hang out and grow, which this supports well enough. The hay and grass is quite rich.