Liver issue/grumpy?

[Michen]

For goodness sake !!! You have done a fabulous job with Boggle, just look at the photos when you first got him. This is a small blip which you couldn’t have foreseen.. please don’t beat yourself up , he has the best owner he could have… just remember that

Thanks splashgirl I appreciate that. I am I think just a bit overly emotional as although Boggle can be less than friendly to people other than his core crew, the thought of him lunging and baring his teeth.. argh. And the fact that towards me he's just normal Boggle almost makes it worse. I just don't understand why I didn't address the feed sooner, it's not like me to not be "on" it but I guess I was just pleased he was eating up and therefore let him carry on with the sugary stuff.

Anyway, I've done it now, and there will be no expense spared in getting him treated for whatever it is!

Oh how I wish I had insured him

 

[Michen]

Could you set up a wildlife camera type of thing in the stable so you could see what he was doing in his grumpy stage?
It’s odd that you’re not seeing any signs and especially how will you know if the meds are working ?

Yeah I could ask. it's not totally odd because he's always a little grumpy with other people but not those that ride him, fuss him etc. So it kinda makes sense.

 

[Fieldlife]

Ok so here's what's arriving tomorrow, recommended by my barefoot trimmer....

blanks space? Was expecting a list?

 

[scats]

Sounds like a good plan Michen. Don’t beat yourself up, your dedication to Boggle is evident in all your posts, he is very lucky.

 

[Michen]

blanks space? Was expecting a list?

Oh doh I thought I'd sent a link. Hang on..https://www.californiatrace.com/about/california-trace-plus/

So his feed will now be that, some hay pellets and a little beet. Plus the following:

Milk thistle
brewers yeast (b vits for liver)
pellet electrolytes (salt not ideal for liver but fluctuating temps make it important to keep him drinking)
Gut supplement (covers him for colic surgery through enrollment) https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/smartgut-ultra-pellets--10990?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=BR_Search_SP_Smart+Supplements_Exact+Phrase&utm_campaign=SmartGut+Ultra+Pellets&gclid=CjwKCAjwzuqgBhAcEiwAdj5dRuNsxktkb_G1us5_YJKLemciIT005dmhkVQpkQDYTVrXdXNq5fYoMRoCipIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I am about to order a pelleted natural vit e supp, as from reading the 2,000 IU in the california trace isn't enough. Do I need selenium also for the uptake..?

Feels like a lot. All these things are new btw over the last week or so.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Check out the Santa Cruz/Ultra Cruz Vit E, if you haven't.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You could just pull bloods to see what his selenium is like?

 

[Michen]

You could just pull bloods to see what his selenium is like?

I guess that wouldn't be on the bloods he's already had. They are due again in a few weeks re liver so could add some more things in then.

I think in a few days I'm about $4,000 dollars in so far, ha ha.

 

[Michen]

That gorgeous little face from the weekend and soft eye. Gawd, I’m going to be gutted if he has a stomach full of painful ulcers. He’s such a trooper.

And seeing him on his side trying desperately to get up but scrabbling around in panic- argh!

It’s not been a fun few days for us but I’m looking forward to getting his meds later and feeling like I’m doing something to help.

 

[Old school]

Maybe it is him adjusting to all the changes. You were a bit empty in the tank after Christmas. Perhaps it is his turn. No matter, it is most likely something that is easily resolved. He is a healthy horse in his prime. Try not to overthink it. Easier said than done though.

 

[Michen]

Maybe it is him adjusting to all the changes. You were a bit empty in the tank after Christmas. Perhaps it is his turn. No matter, it is most likely something that is easily resolved. He is a healthy horse in his prime. Try not to overthink it. Easier said than done though.

That’s a very good point! Thank you! The price we pay for loving something so much.

 

[Michen]

Also can anyone advise what they did re exercise for their horses whilst being treated (if it is ulcers). I'm in a slightly different situation as he needs movement as doesn't get much in his turnout. I intend to hand walk until next week anyway given his fall. For hacks I mostly need to trailer out with another horse, as the snow dumps we are getting here keep the road riding window opportunity pretty short so we tend to go lower.. but I do get them in from the barn at any opportunity. That said when I'm gone in April he won't really be hacked at all unless the local trails are clear.

I've cancelled all training/lessons etc for the foreseeable. I don't know what the toss up is between the stress of him trailering out vs not doing much hacking though? Do I continue low stress schooling in walk/trot/canter once he's had some downtime post his fall?

Forgot to ask the vet but I will speak to him again next week.

 

[Fieldlife]

Oh doh I thought I'd sent a link. Hang on..https://www.californiatrace.com/about/california-trace-plus/

So his feed will now be that, some hay pellets and a little beet. Plus the following:

Milk thistle
brewers yeast (b vits for liver)
pellet electrolytes (salt not ideal for liver but fluctuating temps make it important to keep him drinking)
Gut supplement (covers him for colic surgery through enrollment) https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/smartgut-ultra-pellets--10990?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=BR_Search_SP_Smart+Supplements_Exact+Phrase&utm_campaign=SmartGut+Ultra+Pellets&gclid=CjwKCAjwzuqgBhAcEiwAdj5dRuNsxktkb_G1us5_YJKLemciIT005dmhkVQpkQDYTVrXdXNq5fYoMRoCipIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I am about to order a pelleted natural vit e supp, as from reading the 2,000 IU in the california trace isn't enough. Do I need selenium also for the uptake..?

Feels like a lot. All these things are new btw over the last week or so.

Does the biotin / yeast in California trace plus not cover the B vitamins?

I think if you are feeding sufficient selenium via California trace plus you don’t need to increase it for adding and extra 2,000-4,000iU of natural vitamin E.

 

[Michen]

Does the biotin / yeast in California trace plus not cover the B vitamins?

I think if you are feeding sufficient selenium via California trace plus you don’t need to increase it for adding and extra 2,000-4,000iU of natural vitamin E.

Probably, my UK vet just said to supplement to help the liver. He knew he was on a balancer of sort (albiet not this one) and most I think have that in so I assume he meant in addition..

 

[Fieldlife]

Also can anyone advise what they did re exercise for their horses whilst being treated (if it is ulcers). I'm in a slightly different situation as he needs movement as doesn't get much in his turnout. I intend to hand walk until next week anyway given his fall. For hacks I mostly need to trailer out with another horse, as the snow dumps we are getting here keep the road riding window opportunity pretty short so we tend to go lower.. but I do get them in from the barn at any opportunity. That said when I'm gone in April he won't really be hacked at all unless the local trails are clear.

I've cancelled all training/lessons etc for the foreseeable. I don't know what the toss up is between the stress of him trailering out vs not doing much hacking though? Do I continue low stress schooling in walk/trot/canter once he's had some downtime post his fall?

Forgot to ask the vet but I will speak to him again next week.

As long as are happy to be ridden I was told to work as normal while treating ulcers. But advice seem to vary.

I didn’t travel / compete but both stressed that horse.

 

[BBP]

I didn’t ride at all for the first 6 weeks I think. But my horse showed very visible signs of pain when ridden. I led him out but in walk only (less sloshing of acid was my amateur thinking!) Having had suspected ulcers myself, I would t have been a big fan of someone trying to make me go running.

 

[MereChristmas]

My situation was entirely different to yours. I was told not to start exercise until I knew there was improvement. I didn’t ride until after the jabs were finished.
As I said F wasn’t ridden before as he was dangerous so I had to start slowly from him being really unfit

 

[druid]

Sounds like you've got a great plan in place. Feed wise, down the road if you can get it Triple Crown Senior is safe, innocuous and goof for weight gain if needed. It was my go to for all ulcer patients alongside Misoprostol and Omeprazole injections (I only use sucralfate for the first 7 days).

 

[Michen]

Sounds like you've got a great plan in place. Feed wise, down the road if you can get it Triple Crown Senior is safe, innocuous and goof for weight gain if needed. It was my go to for all ulcer patients alongside Misoprostol and Omeprazole injections (I only use sucralfate for the first 7 days).

Thanks Druid! X

 

[Boulty]

When I had a horse with mild ulcers I was advised to keep in work as normal but his symptoms weren’t work related if that makes sense? I was also advised he could be in light work when same horse had raised liver values but other issues meant he ended up semi retired & then retired.

Try not to worry tooooo much, this could all just be his body adjusting to this massive change he’s gone through & with support I’m sure he’ll be just fine as sounds like you’ve caught whatever is going on super early

 

[Caol Ila]

Sounds like you're on it. Some horses are just different with other people. Especially ones who do not speak 'horse' well. You and his crew might just speak to him in a way he gets and is comfortable with. If he has some niggling medical stuff, he might be able to deal with it when you're with him because he's happy, and he trusts you. But if he's handled by people who aren't speaking to him like you do and he's a bit warier in general, the niggling pain is not so easy to ignore, and he becomes aggressive and defensive. Kind of trigger stacking, really.

Fin does not let people who aren't in his crew (myself, OH, and a handful of other liveries) catch him. People he doesn't know well can catch him, but only if they follow my instructions, which require you to approach in a curved line - rather than marching straight towards his head - with relaxed body language (slouching, ambling slowly) and not making direct eye contact. Once you get close, make an offering of a carrot. Once he's connected with you and accepted the carrot, you are good to go.

Needless to say, this is not happening with even the English-speaking yard staff. They can't get near him and there is no point in trying. But that's a much easier problem to solve at a British yard. I totally get that at an American yard, you usually don't have that kind of control.

 

[Michen]

Yeh the problem is there’s been a change. He wasn’t like this with night check until the last few weeks.

 

[AandK]

If he’s still happy being ridden, then I’d carry on, keeping it low key. My vets didn’t say not to ride during treatment, but I didn’t as my horse was reacting to being girthed up, so clearly uncomfortable.

 

[TwyfordM]

Liver enzymes are quite common in times of stress for horses, my mare had raised liver enzymes when the mare was pair bonded with moved to a new home, they were only picked up when she had an impaction colic, main symptoms were peeing a lot and her being very quiet, she did go off feed/hay and become quite picky too, She didn’t get grumpy though so I’d say ulcers are more likely too.

Milk thistle is good for liver/general detox, that sorted out my mare without any need for further biopsy/treatments
Chucking some in his feed can’t do any harm, there’s bound to be a few bumps in the road as it’s a complete change in management/climate etc, and every horse is going to react differently. So there’s no way to predict everything, don’t stress too much, my mare is still great 10 years later and hasn’t had a raised liver enzyme since

 

[Old school]

Looking

That gorgeous little face from the weekend and soft eye. Gawd, I’m going to be gutted if he has a stomach full of painful ulcers. He’s such a trooper.

And seeing him on his side trying desperately to get up but scrabbling around in panic- argh!

It’s not been a fun few days for us but I’m looking forward to getting his meds later and feeling like I’m doing something to help.

View attachment 109853

Looking at the headgear.....we, the Europeans, have lost you to the other side Love it. It all looks so comfortable.

 

[paddy555]

I haven't read all the replies on this page. The link below tells you about E if you haven't already read it. The first 4 lines of point 8 are very important.

Obviously in an ideal world getting E levels in a blood test would help but if not I would go in hard with E ie a high dose. If you were in England that would be 10000iu FP/PE etc natural or Nano.

The 4 lines I referred to tell you how quickly each work. The ideal one is KER nano to start with. You would be doing this to try and use the high dose vit E to indicate if that is where your problem (or part of it) lies. The results would be quick. I would be looking for B to become nicer (ie happier which could indicate less discomfort) If that was the case you could get the levels up, perhaps bloodtest next time you see the vet and then move onto a maintenance dose.
Nano is about £90 in England. 1 bottle would answer the question.

Neuromuscular Diseases related to vitamin E

cvm.msu.edu

 

[Michen]

Well if he wasn’t angry before he is now. He will not eat his hard feed now. Urgh, I need him to for getting the sulfracate in him and all the other stuff. Plus to keep weight on he can’t suddenly go to nothing . I’m wondering whether adding a little molasses would be the lesser of the two evils?

Any thoughts?

 

[Michen]

Liver enzymes are quite common in times of stress for horses, my mare had raised liver enzymes when the mare was pair bonded with moved to a new home, they were only picked up when she had an impaction colic, main symptoms were peeing a lot and her being very quiet, she did go off feed/hay and become quite picky too, She didn’t get grumpy though so I’d say ulcers are more likely too.

Milk thistle is good for liver/general detox, that sorted out my mare without any need for further biopsy/treatments
Chucking some in his feed can’t do any harm, there’s bound to be a few bumps in the road as it’s a complete change in management/climate etc, and every horse is going to react differently. So there’s no way to predict everything, don’t stress too much, my mare is still great 10 years later and hasn’t had a raised liver enzyme since

Thanks so much for this! Milk thistle arrived today what did you feed? Bog now on hunger strike. Not because he feels bad but because I’ve taken away his junk food!

 

[HufflyPuffly]

I feed mint when I've needed to get mine to eat something they don't want to, discovered this trying to get meds in a Cushing horse who couldn't have molasses!

 

[Michen]

I feed mint when I've needed to get mine to eat something they don't want to, discovered this trying to get meds in a Cushing horse who couldn't have molasses!

Oh thanks! Great idea!