Michen
Well-Known Member
I’m thinking I treat from now, and if no difference scope. If there’s a difference I treat for full month then scope at end to ensure gone?
I don’t really want to do nothing for two weeks whilst waiting for a scope.
Liver issue/grumpy?
- Thread starter Michen
- Start date
I’m thinking I treat from now, and if no difference scope. If there’s a difference I treat for full month then scope at end to ensure gone?
I don’t really want to do nothing for two weeks whilst waiting for a scope.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
No real useful advice, but I just want to add that adjusting your horse to feed and lifestyle in a new country and very different types of horsekeeping can be really hard and may take time and faff to get right. It's not just you. Someone mentioned Sig further up this thread, and Gypsum also required some work and creativity. She had been relatively straightforward to manage in CO. Not so much here.
The more 'chaotic' (for lack of a better word) style of many UK yards was really hard for her. It was also tricky to keep weight on her with the feed and grass here. Probably should have fed her oily and hedgerow herbs, but I did not know about that when she was alive.
She looked her best at a yard where they grazed them on lush ryegrass in the summer. I have never seen so many horses come down with laminitis in one place, but it suited her. At least in summer. Winter was always a clusterf*ck.
She never got over the horizontal rain, midges, and clegs. You just couldn't ride outside in that weather. She would turn her butt to it and there wasn't a damned thing you could do about that. With the bugs, she had to spend the summer in full PPE and hack out in all the fly gear.
The more 'chaotic' (for lack of a better word) style of many UK yards was really hard for her. It was also tricky to keep weight on her with the feed and grass here. Probably should have fed her oily and hedgerow herbs, but I did not know about that when she was alive.
She looked her best at a yard where they grazed them on lush ryegrass in the summer. I have never seen so many horses come down with laminitis in one place, but it suited her. At least in summer. Winter was always a clusterf*ck.
She never got over the horizontal rain, midges, and clegs. You just couldn't ride outside in that weather. She would turn her butt to it and there wasn't a damned thing you could do about that. With the bugs, she had to spend the summer in full PPE and hack out in all the fly gear.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
I would scope him. He's had a massive stress 5 months ago and could have been rumbling ulcers since then. It's possibly the flying affected his liver.
As we know horses can seem calm but his entire life has changed and diet and while he may have coped initially this may be the after effects of that coming out .That doesn't mean it is a disaster. I would also see if he could have constant access forage (slow feeder for stable?) Just because he's changed countries doesn't mean they're new system is better than constant trickle of food.
Being fed little and often can lead to aggressive behaviour as they are really keen for next feed.
As we know horses can seem calm but his entire life has changed and diet and while he may have coped initially this may be the after effects of that coming out .That doesn't mean it is a disaster. I would also see if he could have constant access forage (slow feeder for stable?) Just because he's changed countries doesn't mean they're new system is better than constant trickle of food.
Being fed little and often can lead to aggressive behaviour as they are really keen for next feed.
Michen
Well-Known Member
As per my post I’ve bought a slow feeder for the turnout. In his stable he always has a little hay left over in the morning so he’s got near constant there, occasionally between 6-7 he may have run out but I’m not too stressed about that, and about to add some soaked hay cobs as a back up too.
He’s never massively bothered about the “next” feed. It doesn’t particularly excite bim!
Fairly sure I’m going to book the scope it’s just what do I do for the next two weeks whilst waiting for it!
Auslander
Well-Known Member
One of my lot was on weekly injections of Omeprazole recently. It was like purple cement, and a bugger to inject, but it did the trick!
MereChristmas
riding reluctantly into the sunset
Take it easy Michen. Loads of experiences and alternatives for ulcer treatment for you to work on have been suggested. At the moment you can’t see the wood for the trees but you will find a way.
My experience for grade 2 squamous ulcers on the lesser curvature of the stomach.
treatment was
pony had 4 full injections as he is difficult to worm. It is like thick yoghurt going in and MUST be warmed before use. One vet did it easily another made a pig’s ear of it and Finan wasn’t happy. Depends on technique perhaps?
He also had 2 pots of Sucralfate ( sp? ) over about 2 months.
After the 4 jabs he was scoped again and healing was almost complete. He was given 2 more 1/2 dose jabs to make sure.
He was noticeably better after the first jab. Because he had been dangerous to ride when poorly it took a few months to bring him back into work.
He is now on hay and Allen and Page Fast Fibre only. I use, vet recommended, NAF Gastriaid as back up if I think there is going to be any long term stress and have sachets of omeprazole Equizol for emergency one off dosage.
It took me about 2 months to eliminate other causes suggested by the vet which was time wasted. This is why I suggest ‘scoping first
Chin up, you’ll get it sorted.
My experience for grade 2 squamous ulcers on the lesser curvature of the stomach.
treatment was
pony had 4 full injections as he is difficult to worm. It is like thick yoghurt going in and MUST be warmed before use. One vet did it easily another made a pig’s ear of it and Finan wasn’t happy. Depends on technique perhaps?
He also had 2 pots of Sucralfate ( sp? ) over about 2 months.
After the 4 jabs he was scoped again and healing was almost complete. He was given 2 more 1/2 dose jabs to make sure.
He was noticeably better after the first jab. Because he had been dangerous to ride when poorly it took a few months to bring him back into work.
He is now on hay and Allen and Page Fast Fibre only. I use, vet recommended, NAF Gastriaid as back up if I think there is going to be any long term stress and have sachets of omeprazole Equizol for emergency one off dosage.
It took me about 2 months to eliminate other causes suggested by the vet which was time wasted. This is why I suggest ‘scoping first
Chin up, you’ll get it sorted.
Bluewaves
Well-Known Member
Nothing really to add treatment wise but i feel for you with the uncertainty of what's best to do.
Mine looked great but said no to work one day and was very grumpy. I got him scoped and he had squamous ulcers. Still being treated and I probably need to check with another scope but it's a whole handling getting him to the vet to get it done. He doesn't like travelling and I'm scared of stressing him out and making them bad again. I will have to change his winter management for next year but he will stay at my livery for the summer for now.
Mine looked great but said no to work one day and was very grumpy. I got him scoped and he had squamous ulcers. Still being treated and I probably need to check with another scope but it's a whole handling getting him to the vet to get it done. He doesn't like travelling and I'm scared of stressing him out and making them bad again. I will have to change his winter management for next year but he will stay at my livery for the summer for now.
PurBee
Well-Known Member
Id try globalherbs restore liquid in the stop gap, as their herbs are the prime ones for cleansing and supporting organ and digestive health/immune system, anti-inflammatory.
Posters on here were supporting their use of lami pro on another thread, so i took a look at their herbal mixes, and was pleasantly surprised to find they’re using highly renowned all body supportive herbs. I just am not keen on the fillers used in their powder mixes of soy/hay - so would prefer to use their liquid tonics.
If you can hunt out a supplier in the US online, i found one but they didnt have it in stock.
Here’s the UK link:
Restore liquid - Equine
10% Off! Enjoy 10% Off as part of our October offers, discount automatically applied at checkout. Ending 31st October. To receive a free pump with every 5ltr bottle purchase please add our pump to your basket and it will be automatically discounted at checkout for any qualifying purchases...
globalherbs.co.uk
TPO
🤠🏴
Id try globalherbs restore liquid in the stop gap, as their herbs are the prime ones for cleansing and supporting organ and digestive health/immune system, anti-inflammatory.
Posters on here were supporting their use of lami pro on another thread, so i took a look at their herbal mixes, and was pleasantly surprised to find they’re using highly renowned all body supportive herbs. I just am not keen on the fillers used in their powder mixes of soy/hay - so would prefer to use their liquid tonics.
If you can hunt out a supplier in the US online, i found one but they didnt have it in stock.
Here’s the UK link:
Restore liquid - Equine
10% Off! Enjoy 10% Off as part of our October offers, discount automatically applied at checkout. Ending 31st October. To receive a free pump with every 5ltr bottle purchase please add our pump to your basket and it will be automatically discounted at checkout for any qualifying purchases...
Way back when I think GH were relatively new I used their restore product for a horse with suspected liver issues.
She had bad photosensitivity issues and mud fever the other side of the year.
It's going back 20yrs so my memory is a bit hazy as to her other symptoms. Vet ran bloods and tbh I was expecting ragwort poisoning but thankfully not. I can't remember the exact results.
Anyway I used GH after phoning to speak to them and it did help. Obviously her photosensitivity is different from Bogs symptoms but along with management changes GH did appear to help.
Maxidoodle
Well-Known Member
Advice from someone who lives with long, very cold and very snowy winters:
Drop the sugary compound feed, especially if you suspect ulcers. In cold weather it's better to feed more hay because it is the fermentation of forage in the gut that keeps them warm, not the hard feed.
We regularly have -20 to -25 and the horses thrive as long as they have enough hay to munch on through the daySome even manage without any blankets (unless clipped of course). Mine who is unclipped had 150 g at most this winter when it was -20. Horses cope much better with cold, dry weather than wet, windy weather.
Management and feeding of horses in cold weather
Learn how to manage and feed horses during cold weather.www.ontario.ca
This is how we manage OP, in -14 with a colder windchill. Unclipped and 2 have been in just 50g rugs and my other two naked. I would suspect ulcers but I am sure this is just a blip. His slip is just an accident it sounds. Poor Boggle, thankfully he has a great mum, don’t get too down, it’s hard when there’s been such a change of environment.
AandK
Well-Known Member
Mine was scoped and found grade 2&3 squamous, they cleared up with 4 weeks gastroguard. He had a tube 30 mins before his breakfast (lives out 24/7) and once he scoped clear, he had a tapered dose of 2 weeks half dose and two weeks quarter dose. In your shoes I would scope, as treatment is different for different types of ulcer and he may not have any, in which case meds are a waste of money.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Ok, so. Vet said if you were going to use any drug straight off as a bit of a test, sulfracate would be the one to go for. Then a step up omeprazole and sulfracate. If there ulcers are deeper there’s a third drug (beginning with m) that would also be added. But either way you’d have the other two as well.
They could scope him but it would have to be at the clinic but they could get him in end next week (I get back from North Carolina late Thursday). He said given the timings you haven’t got much to lose by doing a bit of a diagnostic test with some drugs to get through the next week or so. If there’s a noticeable improvement then great, continue on and maybe we scope when I’m back from the UK to see where we are at. If no improvement we try and scope next week before I go, to see if the third drug needs adding or if that’s not the problem at all.
I did mention Abler and he wasn’t opposed at all, he says he feels it’s not as effective and with something fairly subtle you probably want to just use the tried and tested drugs for now. Which I get. I’d rather spend more and know he’s had gold standard. I know there will be a few opinions on that!
I think this feels sensible in the time that I have and I’m going to tee up with another girl on the yard at least for the next week or two re giving the drugs and I’ll worry about the rest later.
They could scope him but it would have to be at the clinic but they could get him in end next week (I get back from North Carolina late Thursday). He said given the timings you haven’t got much to lose by doing a bit of a diagnostic test with some drugs to get through the next week or so. If there’s a noticeable improvement then great, continue on and maybe we scope when I’m back from the UK to see where we are at. If no improvement we try and scope next week before I go, to see if the third drug needs adding or if that’s not the problem at all.
I did mention Abler and he wasn’t opposed at all, he says he feels it’s not as effective and with something fairly subtle you probably want to just use the tried and tested drugs for now. Which I get. I’d rather spend more and know he’s had gold standard. I know there will be a few opinions on that!
I think this feels sensible in the time that I have and I’m going to tee up with another girl on the yard at least for the next week or two re giving the drugs and I’ll worry about the rest later.
MereChristmas
riding reluctantly into the sunset
Glad you have a plan.
Now you can do something rather than over thinking about the problem.
Onwards and upwards to make a happy Boggle
Now you can do something rather than over thinking about the problem.
Onwards and upwards to make a happy Boggle
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a solid plan!
Michen
Well-Known Member
Yeah I’m a bit like arghhh I want him scoped now and truthfully if I had my own transport then I would as it would be easy to run him down, certainly if it could be done quickly here then I would too. But there’s too many moving parts at the moment with being away and my vet was sensible that starting with the most likely cause and drugs, isn’t a terrible way to go for the next week and he does think that may well be a diagnosis in itself with sulfracate, apparently that usually makes them feel a lot better very quickly.
I also don’t really want him going into a clinic for it. Just seems unnecessary. I’d rather the mobile vet do it (they also work with my main vet) at home and send the images through.
I also don’t really want him going into a clinic for it. Just seems unnecessary. I’d rather the mobile vet do it (they also work with my main vet) at home and send the images through.
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a good plan. Mistoprol I think, is third drug. (Causes abortion in humans). I had to use all 3 drugs to treat past horse.
Michen
Well-Known Member
That’s the one. He said it’s a real pain to administer?
Michen
Well-Known Member
Next issue, how the heck will I know if it’s working. It’s likely night check will end up administering some of the meds so that may change his behavior towards them. Other than that, being slightly more grumpy with another horse in the trailer is my only guidance.
Maybe he will stop doing the lip shaking thing in the cross ties but I truly think that’s annoyance at not being able to swing his arse around.
Perhaps I’ll see something change back that I hadn’t been observant enough to notice.
Maybe he will stop doing the lip shaking thing in the cross ties but I truly think that’s annoyance at not being able to swing his arse around.
Perhaps I’ll see something change back that I hadn’t been observant enough to notice.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
I would either get him blood tested for vit e levels or if you want to do something quickly whilst you wait to scope put him on a high dose of nano. If you do that now you should be seeing improvement within a couple of weeks max. Mine started to improve within days and that wasn't the Nano vit E.
We had the going down with a rider on. Did B slip accidentally or were his muscles tired at that stage of the ride and he slipped.
A lot of those symptoms could be put down to vit e def and I cannot see much (or even any) useful vit e in your diet. It could be in England he was holding his own and getting sufficient from somewhere. On a dry lot with hay etc he may not be.
Michen
Well-Known Member
It was a total freak fall, he slipped on some mud.
Fieldlife
Well-Known Member
Dont think it was for us. He was out at night. He came in, had syringe of gastroguard on a relatively empty stomach (now I'd do weekly injections) waited the allowed time with no hay. Then had a feed that was I think top dressed with mistoprol and sucralfate. Then hay returned. Cant remember if had mistoprol and sucralfate once or twice a day.
Vets were very funny about giving out the mistoprol as it is controlled, potentially harmful drug. I think it was small white pills but was a while ago. Due to it's use in humans, they asked my 40 year old, balding husband, when he collected the drugs to confirm he wasnt female and to acknowledge he knew the risks to pregnancy if he was female?!?!?
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Maybe a silly question, but why are you using cross ties if he hates them so much
Michen
Well-Known Member
Because it's the only place you can really tie, there isn't a back wall as such that's empty like at my last barn, where he could turn himself depending on what he wants to look at or do. And frankly, he's only in them for things like feet or sometimes tacking up etc so it's not a hardship for him
Michen
Well-Known Member
Ok so here's what's arriving tomorrow, recommended by my barefoot trimmer....
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
That's a good point. Funnily enough, my saintly wonky mare was briefly in them yesterday at a chiro vet clinic for the first time in the 7 years that I have owned her, and she was most unhappy. She loves the chiro vet, so it wasn't personal.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Guys thanks for your support. I'm really lucky. And I feel I have support from the barn too, to get the meds right. It's looking like we can scope him the day I fly (4th April) before I go. Then I have a long haul flight to think about it!
I'm really cross with myself. I knew the compound feed was shoddy, I should have changed it sooner. I should have spent less time and money on western saddles and fun stuff and more time looking at my horse and making sure he was ok. I already asked a lot of him to move to this environment, be on a dry lot turnout, a new climate and set up far less horse friendly than the one he came from (in some ways, not others). And he's done it all with loads of enthusiasm and heart, yet I've failed to get the basics right in terms of feed. I meant to add vit E months ago, and I didn't. Why??
FFS, my poor Bog
I'm really cross with myself. I knew the compound feed was shoddy, I should have changed it sooner. I should have spent less time and money on western saddles and fun stuff and more time looking at my horse and making sure he was ok. I already asked a lot of him to move to this environment, be on a dry lot turnout, a new climate and set up far less horse friendly than the one he came from (in some ways, not others). And he's done it all with loads of enthusiasm and heart, yet I've failed to get the basics right in terms of feed. I meant to add vit E months ago, and I didn't. Why??
FFS, my poor Bog
Michen
Well-Known Member
Yeh, I agree, but I don't think it's really a case of one or the other with Bog. Tied to a wall, he swings his arse around when he's frustrated or bored or wants to get going. In the cross ties he can't do that, so he does this lip thing. It's the same show of frustration, just a different way of showing it. He's perfectly happy in them if your grooming him etc, it's just if he's standing in them whilst you faff (ie put saddle on, forget something, go get it, etc etc). He's not a horse you can trust not to roll with your tack in the stable
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Guys thanks for your support. I'm really lucky. And I feel I have support from the barn too, to get the meds right. It's looking like we can scope him the day I fly (4th April) before I go. Then I have a long haul flight to think about it!
I'm really cross with myself. I knew the compound feed was shoddy, I should have changed it sooner. I should have spent less time and money on western saddles and fun stuff and more time looking at my horse and making sure he was ok. I already asked a lot of him to move to this environment, be on a dry lot turnout, a new climate and set up far less horse friendly than the one he came from (in some ways, not others). And he's done it all with loads of enthusiasm and heart, yet I've failed to get the basics right in terms of feed. I meant to add vit E months ago, and I didn't. Why??
FFS, my poor Bog
For goodness sake !!! You have done a fabulous job with Boggle, just look at the photos when you first got him. This is a small blip which you couldn’t have foreseen.. please don’t beat yourself up , he has the best owner he could have… just remember that
dixie
Well-Known Member
Could you set up a wildlife camera type of thing in the stable so you could see what he was doing in his grumpy stage?
It’s odd that you’re not seeing any signs and especially how will you know if the meds are working ?
It’s odd that you’re not seeing any signs and especially how will you know if the meds are working ?