Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[Love]

A few years ago now but I once booked (and was very excited for) a lesson with a locally very well renowned dressage instructor…. At one stage they used the words “you’ve got a schooling whip in your hand, the next time his drops off the leg you split him in 2 with it”.

Needless to say that was the end of that.

 

[sbloom]

Are horses being bred that are way too hyper sensitive that so much force/contraptions need to be applied to make them usable by people who ride for a living?

They're hypersensitive because they know that in the wild they'd be toast. It's as fundamental as that. It was a long ago we bred their legs to be so long that their tendons could no longer function fully, as "designed", and now we're breeding them to be so elastic to have lost some fundamental tendon and ligament attachment points eg in the base of the neck. These are seen as the horses that are easiest to train, because our training model is ALL WRONG. They can be noodled around, put into LDR or whatever you want to call it, and still throw out a spectacular if biomechanically harmful trot and canter.

These horses know they are vulnerable, and are then trained without being stabilised; we train for athleticism, elasticity, obedience, "suppleness" but never stability, so it never improves. I know this is not the way most of us have learned to see the horse, but my studies and experience in saddle fitting have led me to believe this.

 

[scats]

I find the ‘if you can’t say anything nice, say nothing at all’ comments very odd.

If I hear of an animal abuse case, am I unable to speak out about it because I have nothing nice to say? I once witnessed (and confronted) someone whipping a horse across the head. I didn’t have a nice thing to say about that, so should I have shut up and walked away?

Humans are weird.

 

[stormox]

I find the ‘if you can’t say anything nice, say nothing at all’ comments very odd.

If I hear of an animal abuse case, am I unable to speak out about it because I have nothing nice to say? I once witnessed (and confronted) someone whipping a horse across the head. I didn’t have a nice thing to say about that, so should I have shut up and walked away?

Humans are weird.

I don't think it means cruelty, there are the correct channels to go through for that , and if you can physically stop it you should. I grabbed a whip off a traveller kid once who was hitting a foal in a sulky, but some people are needlessly horrible about innocent comments and posts on line and on line bullying is very real. It can cause people to feel suicidal and even tip them over the edge.

 

[scats]

I don't think it means cruelty, there are the correct channels to go through for that , and if you can physically stop it you should. I grabbed a whip off a traveller kid once who was hitting a foal in a sulky, but some people are needlessly horrible about innocent comments and posts on line and on line bullying is very real. It can cause people to feel suicidal and even tip them over the edge.

But surely in the context of this dressage debate, the welfare of the animal is a concern for people?

 

[stormox]

But surely in the context of this dressage debate, the welfare of the animal is a concern for people?

It's a difficult one I agree. But when does debate become bullying? The rider is a real person with feelings.
The problem is with the marking, or not marking, in dressage. Not singling out rider trying their best for their country.

 

[Maddie Moo]

I think the problem is that if anyone dares to comment on a horse or welfare concern online, you immediately get told by multiple people that you either don’t know what you’re talking about or that you need to “be kind” regardless of how delicately or tactfully you make your comment.

I’ve commented on welfare issues (tight nosebands, stereotypies being used as cute marketing tactics etc) on social media always in a very polite and tactful manner and have immediately been hounded by people accusing me of bullying, being clueless or stupid. They were more abusive than my original observation!

 

[NinjaPony]

We’ve all seen how professionals react when they are criticised for beating horses. I remember one well known eventer defending herself by saying that all those who criticised her were just amateurs who didn’t know anything, and I was amazed to see plenty of people online agreeing with her.

 

[lynz88]

Good grief! How things have changed.

Im with you TP - was drummed into me as a child that you never get greedy with your pony, and you always thank them!!!!!!

Yes - you get 1 step and you thank them and aim for 2 or 3 steps the next time but if you get that 1 step that next time, you still thank them.

I am both shocked and not shocked at all of these stories. I do find that everything is so heavy-handed over here in general and was a massive eye opener for me where I was taught to teach my horse to work on the buckle before asking for any sort of contact. The horse must learn to find their balance and then their balance with you (a little like working with body weight in the gym before adding a bar and weights). As a result I regularly ride my horse completely on the buckle, still. I follow the British and Irish Thoroughbred Agency for when I am looking for my next horse and there have been many videos where the poor horse is cranked in and well BTV. Now, I'm not saying I'm a beautiful perfect rider and my horse is always in front of or on the vertical and properly pushing from behind because I'm not and he isn't. But I know that and accept his limits and mine....but importantly, he isn't cranked in either.

 

[alexomahony]

On that note the new BD tests have removed the word submission and replaced.it with harmony.

Oh amazing!!! This is great news

 

[ycbm]

It's a difficult one I agree. But when does debate become bullying? The rider is a real person with feelings.
The problem is with the marking, or not marking, in dressage. Not singling out rider trying their best for their country.

I understand what you are saying and there is no excuse for bullying and unfortunately it happens a lot. But as regards commenting on abuse of the horse

- riders can avoid looking at social media
- riders can look at video of their own tests and should be able to see the stuff being commented on which is so obviously wrong
- riders are not forced to ride in abusive ways, they do it because they believe that it will get them higher marks
- I don't ask or want any rider to ride that way for my country, I don't believe it reflects well on my country in any way to win in the way which resulted in this thread
- I don't believe that "riding for their country" comes anywhere near the drive to win medals for their own personal satisfaction/career advancement. It's a goal they strive for, it's not something anyone begs them to do ETA or anything we need to feel grateful for.
- I believe that changing the marking can resolve some of the issues, but it's a rider's personal choice to ride that way, and their personal responsibility. "I rode my horse with a contact that caused him to be gurning for 100%of the test and stick his blue tongue out of his mouth, but it was the fault of the marking and it was OK cos I won" does not wash.
.

 

[Rowreach]

I've thought rather hard about posting this, and in fact written it and deleted it a couple of times, but ...

We have lost a few dressage people off this forum, people who train and compete to a reasonably high standard, and the reasons given have been because they're sick of seeing "keyboard warriors" and people who've never ridden a GP test daring to speak out and say that the way modern dressage has gone is cruel, hideous to watch and against every aspect of horse welfare.

And that, there, is the root of the problem. If the people doing it can't see it, then the rest of us need to shout even louder, for the sake of the horse.

 

[ester]

In all equestrian sports what I'm not sure about is when we are pushing horses to their max is ever going to look pretty, except perhaps for the exceptional few for whom it isn't their max.

 

[Lois Lame]

I've thought rather hard about posting this, and in fact written it and deleted it a couple of times, but ...

We have lost a few dressage people off this forum, people who train and compete to a reasonably high standard, and the reasons given have been because they're sick of seeing "keyboard warriors" and people who've never ridden a GP test daring to speak out and say that the way modern dressage has gone is cruel, hideous to watch and against every aspect of horse welfare.

I agree with this ^

'And that, there, is the root of the problem. If the people doing it can't see it, then the rest of us need to shout even louder, for the sake of the horse.'

But not this bit ^

I think they can see it. And I think they don't like it either. Maybe they have left the forum because too much generalisation has been happening.

 

[Rowreach]

I agree with this ^



But not this bit ^

I think they can see it. And I think they don't like it either. Maybe they have left the forum because too much generalisation has been happening.

If that's the case (and I'm not disagreeing with you) why can they not acknowledge it? Why have they so staunchly defended their sport and the way it has gone? Why have they not responded with nuanced replies? Genuinely interested.

 

[Lois Lame]

If that's the case (and I'm not disagreeing with you) why can they not acknowledge it? Why have they so staunchly defended their sport and the way it has gone? Why have they not responded with nuanced replies? Genuinely interested.

Maybe because they themselves cannot control it. I mean, how can they? They only have control of what they themselves do.

 

[meleeka]

If that's the case (and I'm not disagreeing with you) why can they not acknowledge it? Why have they so staunchly defended their sport and the way it has gone? Why have they not responded with nuanced replies? Genuinely interested.

Same as the hunting thread I’m sure. It’s difficult to justify something thar most other people find cruel. They can’t see it, I don’t think.

 

[LEC]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

I don’t necessarily agree with where dressage has ended up but I think there is a conscious effort to do better. The poor looking ones are slowly ending up in the minority and we haven’t seen Edward Gal for a very long time which isn’t a bad thing. The days of Isabell and Anky winning everything are gone on horses who cannot even halt.

 

[Time for Tea]

If that's the case (and I'm not disagreeing with you) why can they not acknowledge it? Why have they so staunchly defended their sport and the way it has gone? Why have they not responded with nuanced replies? Genuinely interested.

Because that would be admitting doing something wrong and that is not how they see themselves

 

[meleeka]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

I don’t necessarily agree with where dressage has ended up but I think there is a conscious effort to do better. The poor looking ones are slowly ending up in the minority and we haven’t seen Edward Gal for a very long time which isn’t a bad thing. The days of Isabell and Anky winning everything are gone on horses who cannot even halt.

The difference between the sport of dressage and the other examples you gave, for me is knowledge (although I can’t recall any examples seen and not called out on here). Compromising welfare through ignorance is quite different to the deliberate abuse we see in dressage. I don’t even blame the riders. The judges are the ones that are encouraging it and through their scores, are promoting it as the way it should be done.

 

[LEC]

The difference between the sport of dressage and the other examples you gave, for me is knowledge (although I can’t recall any examples seen and not called out on here). Compromising welfare through ignorance is quite different to the deliberate abuse we see in dressage. I don’t even blame the riders. The judges are the ones that are encouraging it and through their scores, are promoting it as the way it should be done.

Is tension a welfare issue though? Should it be classed as a welfare issue which is technically going to come under the same heading as the cob that was tied up by its hind legs and left to die?
Just asking the question. The horse is sound, not in pain and is not being ridden in a way which is cruel. Her hands are not harsh and her aids are not cruel. She is balanced and still.

I just don’t call it a welfare issue. If we want to call tension a welfare issue then my 4yo who did his first ever walk and trot test the other day is also going to fall into this category as spent most of his test shouting to his friend.

Also by this same deeming of tension being a welfare issue, so is a nappy horse… one who doesn’t want to go past something.

I call it over marking for substandard work when relaxation and correctness should get stronger marks.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: not worth engaging with that poster

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

I don’t necessarily agree with where dressage has ended up but I think there is a conscious effort to do better. The poor looking ones are slowly ending up in the minority and we haven’t seen Edward Gal for a very long time which isn’t a bad thing. The days of Isabell and Anky winning everything are gone on horses who cannot even halt.

Edward Gal has taken a break since the last Olympics a he has just got a new top quality Grand Prix ride .
IT was my feeling he looked unwell at Tokyo but that is based on nothing more than intuition.
I totally agree that we would be better looking closer to home if we really want to improve welfare .
Someone I respect greatly always said welfare starts at home and I strongly believe that .

However all of that aside , I don’t admire Everdale I mean clearly he’s a beautiful horse but I don’t like his way of going and if you put yourself out there at the top level then you must expect people to have opinions there would be little point in Watching and being interested in the sport.
I don’t think any one has called Lottie Fry Beelzebub and it what you have to expect at her level .
While I would not go quite as far as saying if you can’t stand the heat stay out of the kitchen and that was what I thought when I read that AR piece. I think as long as it stays polite top riders must accept being judged by the horsey public as well as the judges .
the public won’t always agree with the judges .

 

[Rowreach]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

I don’t necessarily agree with where dressage has ended up but I think there is a conscious effort to do better. The poor looking ones are slowly ending up in the minority and we haven’t seen Edward Gal for a very long time which isn’t a bad thing. The days of Isabell and Anky winning everything are gone on horses who cannot even halt.

I don’t think it’s hypocritical to have discussions about dressage on one thread when we have discussions about all those other topics on other threads.

I do think it is significant that when faced with a discussion that makes someone feel uncomfortable they deflect with what aboutery instead of engaging with the discussion and agreeing that something needs to change or arguing the case as to why it shouldn’t.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.

What hypocrisy ?

Other forms of horse abuse and horse welfare concerns regularly get called out and discussed on here.

Instead I call out your whataboutery as a rather obvious attempt to deflect from the discussion in hand, which you clearly find uncomfortable.

 

[LEC]

.

 

[scats]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

Do they go unchecked? I recall lots of discussions on here about overweight riders, lame horses being ridden and equine obesity.

 

[ycbm]

I think it’s the hypocrisy that sometimes stinks on this forum.
Lotty Fry is being proclaimed as the next Beelzebub while starving horses, fat horses, poorly looked after horses, badly ridden horses, fat riders, out of balance riders, lame horses because their rider hasn’t noticed, nervous riders stressing out horses seem to go unchecked.
We scream from the rafters about one person which may end social licence to compete when there are thousands who compromise the welfare of horses on a daily basis. But hey we think our own shit smells of roses.

We talk about all those things on this forum.
.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Plus it’s not really about Lottie, specifically, but about a test showing high levels of tension and evasion being rewarded with a win.

Re dressage lovers feeling hounded by key board warriors - I think that’s an issue if every dressage thread turns into a bash-fest against dressage. But a very focused discussion about a horrible test attracting very high marks at world level seems entirely legitimate.

When OT flogs tired horses out Eventing, the eventers on here don’t ignore and deflect. It’s an issue when competitive drive clouds judgement. And I felt it was refreshing that his fellow competitors themselves called it out in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Willingness to engage in criticism and reflect/challenge/change is very healthy in any equestrian sport.

 

[ycbm]

The horse is sound, not in pain and is not being ridden in a way which is cruel. Her hands are not harsh and her aids are not cruel.

The horse is scoring pretty high on the pain ethogram and his very visible tongue is BLUE.

And you want us not to criticise that being celebrated as the best in the world?
.