Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[alexomahony]

I think when tension comes into play, we need to think not only about physical pain, but the mental welfare of the horse too. Anything more than just grazing in a field brings a horse into unatural territory that we need to prepare them for. I totally realise that no one can recreate arenas like Olympia and the huge crowds at these competitions, but they should be making a better effort to so the horse shows less tension at these types of events. I'd be keen to watch these horses working at home to see the difference - I bet the tension shown in competition isn't seen at home... in the run up to events like the Olympics, it's be so good to see Pro's asking for support from the equine community to help prepare horses for such huge events to give the horses the best chance of being relaxed. It's maybe an impossible task... but I bet it'd be worth it.

Add a tighter than normal (probably) noseband, rider competition nerves and pressure etc I wonder if our riders just don't do a good enough jobs of preparing horses for the grand stage - we just expect them to cope, and when they struggle, the nosebands get tighter and the aids get harsher (I'm thinking about all levels), and the horses shut down and just learn to cope because they can't escape. Plus, the horses we're seeing at these competitions are getting younger and younger, so the riders need to think more about not only preparing the body for these manouvers, but the mind too.

I think people are becoming more and more aware of mental wellbeing in animals (and people) and recognising the signs that an animal is struggling which maybe the Pro's aren't ready to accept as critisism yet. Physical lameness is easy to call out as it's able to be medical proven by a vet, but mental lameness...that can be hidden through many things such as highly strung breed lines, type, temprement etc when in fact, preperation that promotes relaxation and mental wellbeing would probably solve the negative tension issue.

Sorry for the essay - just my mind doing serpentimes!

 

[Goldenstar]

Loss of rhythm is a key marker of undesirable tension
This CH and CdJ shine they both can keep the rhythm when things get a little off track
And that’s great emphasis on the basics in training the confidence of the horses and well trained really good riders and sympathetic management
You have to get it all right at this level or cracks show.

 

[palo1]

Same as the hunting thread I’m sure. It’s difficult to justify something thar most other people find cruel. They can’t see it, I don’t think.

Some people won't comment on the hunting thread, not because of the issues around illegal hunting, but because of the style of communication of other posters and similarly to dressage...assertions of knowledge and experience that are compromised by a lack of actual knowledge or up to date experience (not all posters) and a determination to absolutely put everyone in the same boat, metaphorically speaking, when there is real diversity in opinions, experiences etc.

Not all dressage riders use the same training or have the same ideals...to think so is ridiculous! Some of the people that have been lost from the forum actually present a counterbalance to the things that are horrible but by failing to achieve a nuanced discussion, or even sometimes a civil, polite and enquiring one, we have lost those voices and experience. Sadly, loud and critical pronouncements about all things equestrian seem much more 'interesting' than balanced and detailed discussion. I have no desire to compete in dressage and feel very sad for some horses in that particular circle, but really, for most of us, are our own actions, training, knowledge, short cuts because of our own needs etc, better? Horse sport is compromised ethically, of course but there are many, many different ways that compromise happens. I can only hope that those that day they hate modern dressage/showjumpung/whatever are absolutely certain of their own ethical position and have everything in hand to continue to develop, train and maintain their horsemanship without compromise, mistake or undue and potentially harmful influence from others....

 

[Goldenstar]

Just wanted to add no horse needs to be a Grand Prix horse that’s something that imposed on them by their breeding and financial value .

 

[equinerebel]

I can only hope that those that day they hate modern dressage/showjumpung/whatever are absolutely certain of their own ethical position and have everything in hand to continue to develop, train and maintain their horsemanship without compromise, mistake or undue and potentially harmful influence from others....

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, but as a contributor to threads criticising elite horse sports I can answer this for myself. Yes, I am certain of my ethical position and am taking steps to develop my horsemanship without compromise. The horse I own now is my last.

 

[Mfh999]

I'm the first to say I don't understand dressage; couldn't ride a circle on the right diagonal if my life depended on it but I do know I like to see relaxed and happy horses and that, for me, rightly or wrongly, hasn't been happening for many years which seems to tally with the big money taking over and shouting loudest.

I love a horse that enjoys their job; they are a pleasure to watch be that racing, polo, hunting, gymkhana games, barrel racing, whatever but dressage horses today just don't seem to look able do this and like the fat show horse syndrome, it's judges to blame for all of it.

 

[sbloom]

I'd say it's money, and more leisure riders who don't have entire years to spend studying with the masters. The structure of dressage has changed hugely because of both, and now we are owned by big money, breeding and judging will need to change, but judges do feel vulnerable (and in this country are volunteers after all) so we ideally need to find a way through that allows everyone to step back and not be personally to blame for where we are now.

 

[meleeka]

Some people won't comment on the hunting thread, not because of the issues around illegal hunting, but because of the style of communication of other posters and similarly to dressage...assertions of knowledge and experience that are compromised by a lack of actual knowledge or up to date experience (not all posters) and a determination to absolutely put everyone in the same boat, metaphorically speaking, when there is real diversity in opinions, experiences etc.

Not all dressage riders use the same training or have the same ideals...to think so is ridiculous! Some of the people that have been lost from the forum actually present a counterbalance to the things that are horrible but by failing to achieve a nuanced discussion, or even sometimes a civil, polite and enquiring one, we have lost those voices and experience. Sadly, loud and critical pronouncements about all things equestrian seem much more 'interesting' than balanced and detailed discussion. I have no desire to compete in dressage and feel very sad for some horses in that particular circle, but really, for most of us, are our own actions, training, knowledge, short cuts because of our own needs etc, better? Horse sport is compromised ethically, of course but there are many, many different ways that compromise happens. I can only hope that those that day they hate modern dressage/showjumpung/whatever are absolutely certain of their own ethical position and have everything in hand to continue to develop, train and maintain their horsemanship without compromise, mistake or undue and potentially harmful influence from others....

I think this illustrates my earlier point exactly.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Some people won't comment on the hunting thread, not because of the issues around illegal hunting, but because of the style of communication of other posters and similarly to dressage...assertions of knowledge and experience that are compromised by a lack of actual knowledge or up to date experience (not all posters) and a determination to absolutely put everyone in the same boat, metaphorically speaking, when there is real diversity in opinions, experiences etc.

Not all dressage riders use the same training or have the same ideals...to think so is ridiculous! Some of the people that have been lost from the forum actually present a counterbalance to the things that are horrible but by failing to achieve a nuanced discussion, or even sometimes a civil, polite and enquiring one, we have lost those voices and experience. Sadly, loud and critical pronouncements about all things equestrian seem much more 'interesting' than balanced and detailed discussion. I have no desire to compete in dressage and feel very sad for some horses in that particular circle, but really, for most of us, are our own actions, training, knowledge, short cuts because of our own needs etc, better? Horse sport is compromised ethically, of course but there are many, many different ways that compromise happens. I can only hope that those that day they hate modern dressage/showjumpung/whatever are absolutely certain of their own ethical position and have everything in hand to continue to develop, train and maintain their horsemanship without compromise, mistake or undue and potentially harmful influence from others....

Ironically, this is a fairly antagonistic post in what otherwise has been a very balanced and detailed discussion!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I am personally aware that not all dressage riders use the same methods, and it seems like many on this forum acknowledge and recognize that. If someone tells me that they're a "dressage rider" I don't lump them all together. I think it's detrimental to do so. The only people I lump together and don't care to hear from are barrel racers

For example, I learned the style of many dressage clinicians/pros at my last location, and then could pick and choose who to ride with based off of which style I thought was the most productive for my horse. So I enjoy that there is variance amongst dressage riders/clinicians/pros. I don't enjoy that there are some out there that are straight up abusive though!

I struggle with the concept of, "You best be perfect before you dare criticize" because I can see both sides of it. No one likes hypocrisy though.

I do think some people are uncomfortable with horse sport or recognizing some shortcomings of their own discipline and/or horse keeping. So discussion about it is hard for them when they're trying to push that stuff down beneath the surface and not come to terms with it.

There are things that I love about dressage and things that I do not love, and that's OK. It's not an all or nothing for me. It isn't immune from criticism, and we should also recognize the positives. However, I don't think that you have to preface or have a disclaimer featuring the positives to be qualified to get into the negatives.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think this all goes back to whenever you bring an animal into a sport, it's all too easy for ethics to go out the window

 

[palo1]

Ironically, this is a fairly antagonistic post in what otherwise has been a very balanced and detailed discussion!

Yes, apologies for that actually. No need for me to explain but I agree, the tone of my post is a bit off!

 

[palo1]

I think this illustrates my earlier point exactly.

I'm not really sure what you mean tbh. I understand and agree that people find it hard to be critical if they don't see an issue with what they are doing, as well as becoming defensive if challenged. Although the tone of my post was definitely not in harmony with the discussion here, and I have apologised for that, I was only trying to convey the need for nuance and the cost, potentially of losing that.

 

[palo1]

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, but as a contributor to threads criticising elite horse sports I can answer this for myself. Yes, I am certain of my ethical position and am taking steps to develop my horsemanship without compromise. The horse I own now is my last.

I am genuinely interested to know how you can be certain of not compromising? I wince now when I think of some of the 'best practice' of 20 years ago and feel very hesitant about many things that we are given as 'best '. I mean, how do any of us know that, in spite of best intentions, we are not compromising our horses welfare? I know that we can only do our best in the here and now, and do better when we have new knowledge etc. Sometimes that new knowledge is a false dawn though! I think so !such is up for questioning really...

 

[equinerebel]

I am genuinely interested to know how you can be certain of not compromising? I wince now when I think of some of the 'best practice' of 20 years ago and feel very hesitant about many things that we are given as 'best '. I mean, how do any of us know that, in spite of best intentions, we are not compromising our horses welfare? I know that we can only do our best in the here and now, and do better when we have new knowledge etc. Sometimes that new knowledge is a false dawn though! I think so !such is up for questioning really...

Because I won't be involved with horses. I completely agree with your post and my horsemanship now is certainly not perfect because I don't think it can be.

 

[pistolpete]

We need a public enquiry into our sport like the post office!

 

[honetpot]

We need a public enquiry into our sport like the post office!

I would imagine apart from phyiscal symtoms that you can see, remote monitering of heart rate, a routine sampling for blood markers, regular x-arays of main joints, would be the only way to objectively moniter horse welfare.
The racing industry has a lot of studies on horse welfare, because they have a lot of money, and when a horse is injured its often in public. A lot of poor horse management is just tradition and convenience.

 

[blitznbobs]

Because I won't be involved with horses. I completely agree with your post and my horsemanship now is certainly not perfect because I don't think it can be.

This is a cop out - one you are entitled to make but I do not believe all animals would be happier without human involvement … it’s not my experience at all. A lot of animals I have dogs, horses , even ducks but not so much cats - want to be with their human. I have been told this is routine or food orientated but I’m not so sure about that… I brought my two fillies in about a week ago for annual worming (they have lived out all year round) and the very next night they were stood at the gate waiting for me … it wasn’t their routine because they don’t have one… it was a one off and should have been a more stressful experience for them but the next day their behaviour was clear they wanted ‘in’.

I’m not going to comment on the dressage test but this idea that things shouldn’t be done until we can do it perfectly or else not do it at all is bogus and not in anyone’s best interest… including the animals.

 

[meleeka]

I am genuinely interested to know how you can be certain of not compromising? I wince now when I think of some of the 'best practice' of 20 years ago and feel very hesitant about many things that we are given as 'best '. I mean, how do any of us know that, in spite of best intentions, we are not compromising our horses welfare? I know that we can only do our best in the here and now, and do better when we have new knowledge etc. Sometimes that new knowledge is a false dawn though! I think so !such is up for questioning really...

We can only try and look at things through the horses eyes I think and do our best with what we know. I very much doubt that most of the top riders have done this recently. There’s a reason most amateurs aren’t pro riders and some of that is because they won’t push a horse that far. It isn’t all about talent, it’s also about ambition and that’s where the lines of welfare get muddled I think.

 

[Burnerbee]

I found this - a piece by a journalist, writing in the ’i’ newspaper who doesn’t claim to know anything about horses / horse sport, but has eyes and knows what looks and smells right and what doesn‘t. It’s a couple of years old but that’s not to say there won’t be a lot more of this to come, especially while what some people do with horses is getting more unpleasant...

If you don’t like following links he’s basically saying top horses are kept in cages, never allowed to express natural behaviour (no, passage from E to H does not count!), only leave their cage (sorry, stable) to be schooled and are air freighted around the world….all in the lap of a human’s idea of luxury, but horses would probably choose to be bucking and squealing across an open moor…(that last bit is my opinion, not the journalist)

Equestrian sports encourage animal cruelty - they should be banned from the Olympics

In my experience, the most distressed horses are always those who come from the horse racing industry

inews.co.uk

 

[humblepie]

I am genuinely interested to know how you can be certain of not compromising? I wince now when I think of some of the 'best practice' of 20 years ago and feel very hesitant about many things that we are given as 'best '. I mean, how do any of us know that, in spite of best intentions, we are not compromising our horses welfare? I know that we can only do our best in the here and now, and do better when we have new knowledge etc. Sometimes that new knowledge is a false dawn though! I think so !such is up for questioning really...

I try my very best but as you say who knows. I think there are a lot of old practices in management that do stand the test of time but obviously many that don’t. I can remember when I moved to a yard and discovered the full livery horses didn’t go out over the winter as that took time and money and had Sunday off which meant standing in their boxes from when they worked on Saturday til Monday morning. Mine went out in the field every day with the wintering out horses, wasn’t fully clipped as in light work and they all thought I was mad as had to groom my muddy horse.

There are compromises in everything unless you have your own personally designed yard and land. Unfortunately I have to make compromises myself as in going to work

 

[equinerebel]

This is a cop out - one you are entitled to make but I do not believe all animals would be happier without human involvement … it’s not my experience at all. A lot of animals I have dogs, horses , even ducks but not so much cats - want to be with their human. I have been told this is routine or food orientated but I’m not so sure about that… I brought my two fillies in about a week ago for annual worming (they have lived out all year round) and the very next night they were stood at the gate waiting for me … it wasn’t their routine because they don’t have one… it was a one off and should have been a more stressful experience for them but the next day their behaviour was clear they wanted ‘in’.

I’m not going to comment on the dressage test but this idea that things shouldn’t be done until we can do it perfectly or else not do it at all is bogus and not in anyone’s best interest… including the animals.

With respect, that’s not what I said.

I agree that many horses thrive on work and human involvement, I’m just not convinced on the ethics. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Something can, in theory, be unethical, but also be in the best interests of that animal. Both can be true at once.

I definitely did not make any comment on the ethics of keeping household pets, nor did I say all animals are better of without human involvement.

 

[Ratface]

IMO the ‘point’ of dressage is really Classical Dressage. It’s the lightness, connection and fingertip control of a horse working over its back into a light supple contact, performing gymnastic movements in a regular rhythm with a soft tail and neck.

That is what we should be rewarding. There are riders who strive for this; look at Jessica von Bredel, or Helen Langhanenberg, or Ingrid Klimke. Some of the riders at Olympia this year rode like that.

The issue is around judging; until we start harshly marking tension and stress we will continue to see stressed horses rewarded with higher marks.

I picked up a copy of Sylvia Loch’s classical dressage book a year or so ago and it’s what I go back to, particularly now I’ve started riding Spanish horses. It’s dated but the principles make sense to me.

I love Sylvia Loch's books. I have always tried to follow her way of thinking and being with horses. Many years ago, I watched her do a demonstration on a huge Iberian horse. She was a very slender woman, her aids were invisible and her reins just in contact. She appeared to be riding solely by her seat and by balance. I spoke to her afterwards and thanked her for her demonstration. She was quite happy to spend time talking to me and was interested in what I felt that I had learnt.

 

[tristars]

This is a cop out - one you are entitled to make but I do not believe all animals would be happier without human involvement … it’s not my experience at all. A lot of animals I have dogs, horses , even ducks but not so much cats - want to be with their human. I have been told this is routine or food orientated but I’m not so sure about that… I brought my two fillies in about a week ago for annual worming (they have lived out all year round) and the very next night they were stood at the gate waiting for me … it wasn’t their routine because they don’t have one… it was a one off and should have been a more stressful experience for them but the next day their behaviour was clear they wanted ‘in’.

I’m not going to comment on the dressage test but this idea that things shouldn’t be done until we can do it perfectly or else not do it at all is bogus and not in anyone’s best interest… including the animals.

our rescue cob is waiting every day at 4 30 to do his work, if i do not get him out for any reason and do not ride him, he starts to practice on his own, he goes around in trot does a circle where we would do one if ridden, then turns and does the same on the other rein ,he goes on to canter a circuit of that then a flying change at then end of the arena and off on the other rein, he does turns on the forehand and is just starting quarter canter pirouettes, his trot has improved no end he lengthening his stride and using his back beautifully

i`m just say all this to back up what you have seen in case it is dismissed by anyone.

these things are not one offs for me

 

[tristars]

when sylvia and her husband went back to live in england their way of training was ridiculed

 

[blitznbobs]

Ps my dogs are also human seekers they have a huge amount of freedom for dogs - most of the time they are free to roam our land (about 10 acres) with woodland and a barn for shelter if they so desire … they have dry food down all the time and aren’t greedy by nature… where do they spend most of their time ? Well if I am in the house sat on my knee (until my hubby comes in and his is better apparently)

With respect, that’s not what I said.

I agree that many horses thrive on work and human involvement, I’m just not convinced on the ethics. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Something can, in theory, be unethical, but also be in the best interests of that animal. Both can be true at once.

I definitely did not make any comment on the ethics of keeping household pets, nor did I say all animals are better of without human involvement.

I studied ethics for years and doing something in the best interest of something is pretty much the definition of ethical…

beneficence. Yep
nonmaleficence, yep
autonomy, yep
and justice, yep

 

[Ratface]

when sylvia and her husband went back to live in england their way of training was ridiculed

By whom?

 

[equinerebel]

Ps my dogs are also human seekers they have a huge amount of freedom for dogs - most of the time they are free to roam our land (about 10 acres) with woodland and a barn for shelter if they so desire … they have dry food down all the time and aren’t greedy by nature… where do they spend most of their time ? Well if I am in the house sat on my knee (until my hubby comes in and his is better apparently)

I studied ethics for years and doing something in the best interest of something is pretty much the definition of ethical…

I have never studied ethics, so I’m not going to claim I know more. I don’t.

I don’t think it’s black and white. Is it ethical to stable and ride horses? I don’t know, my gut says probably not. But I do know that my horse likes being stabled and ridden. I don’t know the answer

 

[blitznbobs]

I have never studied ethics, so I’m not going to claim I know more. I don’t.

I don’t think it’s black and white. Is it ethical to stable and ride horses? I don’t know, my gut says probably not. But I do know that my horse likes being stabled and ridden. I don’t know the answer

Well ethics has 4 pillars

1 is ‘do good’

2 is ‘do no harm’

3 is ‘ freedom of choice’ ( this is complicated as it also involves capacity to make good decisions too )

4 justice is about spreading good around eg if you have a £1000 to spend do you give all the good to one person or do you buy 10 people 100 quid of good or 1000 people £1 of good… it’s again not straight forward.

Keeping horses is probably more ethical tbh than letting them live wild on the hills. Nothing is purely ethical and nothing is purely unethical… it’s a huge spectrum and it’s about making better decisions.

 

[equinerebel]

I agree with you on that