eahotson
Well-Known Member
At least he can swish his tail.Many of them have had the nerves to the Dock cut.
Lottie frys test…
- Thread starter blitznbobs
- Start date
lme
Well-Known Member
I think its actually WFFS - there was a study (can't remember where I saw it) that suggested t the desire for exaggerated movement in dressage horses has increased the % that are carriers for WFFS.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
That's interesting, can you point me to some evidence of that, please. I have never heard of it and all the dressage horses I've watched seem to have "working" tails.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
You are probably right.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Try the book "I can't bear to watch anymore" by Julie Taylor.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
The book, which is subtitled The case for dropping Equestrian sports from the Olympics? She surely gives evidence to support that claim? I honestly have never ever heard of anyone doing that and it's a pretty worrying thing to suggest and you say "many" horses. Pleased to see that Glamourdale has a fully working tail, as did Valegro and every other British horse I've seen (unless of course you know different?)
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I don't know if tail nerve cutting is a thing in dressage but it happens in Tennessee Walking Horses classed and other saddle seat classes.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Yes the TWH practices have been discussed on here before, but given how much people complain about tail swishing in dressage i can't imagine that it's commonplace tbh.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Well she is sure enough of her facts to send a copy to every member of the IOC.Its making waves.I noted that Glamourdale still had a fully functioning tail.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Or its a good way of getting free advertising to sell more copies . Ive been in the dressage world for 30 years or more and never even heard of this… denerving back legs yes… tails nope
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Good write up here, particularly a note on the scoring...
https://eurodressage.com/2022/08/13...estyle-gold-2022-world-championships-dressage
https://eurodressage.com/2022/08/13...estyle-gold-2022-world-championships-dressage
Spotherisk
Well-Known Member
That was really interesting reading, thank you for posting.
oldie48
Well-Known Member
Yes, thanks for posting. Although I hadn't seen any of the other tests I thought the write up for Lottie's test was very fair and is a good explanation of why movements don't get a 10 ie why marks are being deducted, there are usually things that could be better and for most horses, what I think of as "frame", tends to lack consistency throughout the test as does balance and rhythm otherwise horses would be scoring 100% and they just don't!
fetlock
Well-Known Member
I admit I didn't like the music choices.
Charlotte Dujardin's 2012 music choice was inspired and I found that very emotional (albeit patriotic music for London held Olympics having a good part to play there). Likewise, I loved her music choice for Brazil.
But I didn't like this. Just too modern for (old fogey) my taste.
The horse is spectacular though. I was mesmerised with his extended canter.
Charlotte Dujardin's 2012 music choice was inspired and I found that very emotional (albeit patriotic music for London held Olympics having a good part to play there). Likewise, I loved her music choice for Brazil.
But I didn't like this. Just too modern for (old fogey) my taste.
The horse is spectacular though. I was mesmerised with his extended canter.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I find that extremely unlikely to say the least, is there any evidence for that claim? Given that all horses competing at FEI level are subject to routine veterinary examinations, not to mention that the carrying of the tail is one of the markers of a relaxed back, I should think that something that resulted in an immoveable tail would be picked up immediately.
P.S. Yes; it's a lovely horse, yes; the rider is very, very good, but there were parts of it that looked less than wonderful to me. All of the passage was mechanical and staccato, the horse was sometimes thinking backwards, and modern dressage just leaves me uncomfortable. However the combination fully deserved to win.
Northern
Well-Known Member
Can you back up this claim with actual evidence? Like, name a horse(s) going competing at Large Tour/GP currently with its nerves cut - with concrete evidence. Not just heresay? Sorry, but claims like this are largely absolutely ridiculous.
The horse is certainly impressive, don't get me wrong, but I certainly didn't think the test was perfect. I think the article linked about summed up my thoughts as well. No doubt they deserved the win, but I find myself preferring to watch the less extravagant movers that are correctly trained and ridden to the modern big "leg waving" stallions. He is very young for that level, but I wonder whether he will be competing in 3-4 years still. Shall be interesting to follow his development if he does keep competing over the next few years. I loved watching José Antonio Garcia Mena with Divina Royal, the test was so pleasant to watch and flowing and relaxed. Also enjoyed the PREs and Lusos, so cool to see some non-WBs to balance the mix.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
I'm glad it's not just me.
I'll be honest, I know very little about dressage and find it a bit like watching paint dry ?
I found the whole thing deeply unsettling, esp the first extended trot.....the horse looked like he was going to land on his nose!! Dressage at this level is too OTT for my liking, I can't get away from the fact that every movement appears so exaggerated and I always come away from watching things like this feeling very uncomfortable
I'll be honest, I know very little about dressage and find it a bit like watching paint dry ?
I found the whole thing deeply unsettling, esp the first extended trot.....the horse looked like he was going to land on his nose!! Dressage at this level is too OTT for my liking, I can't get away from the fact that every movement appears so exaggerated and I always come away from watching things like this feeling very uncomfortable
fetlock
Well-Known Member
i don’t care for the ‘one leg going for the shopping, the other one coming back with the change’ leg waving either.
tristar
Well-Known Member
the moment i saw him i thought mechanical, quite sure he deserved to win
i want to see beauty and wish i could understand why it made me feel frankly, cold.
hope he stays sound for his sake
i want to see beauty and wish i could understand why it made me feel frankly, cold.
hope he stays sound for his sake
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I often hear in defence of modern dressage that 'horses do these moves in the field, so it is natural'. My thoughts against this are that horses only express, say a passage or piaffe in bursts of adrenaline - either in a high state of play or in flight. Maintaining such movements, whilst being in a state of 'calm', is not natural to the neurochemistry of the horse.
Now personally, the horses I have seen (at all levels) with the most persistent lameness and injury, are horses with owners that are dressage focused. They are ridden on tight circles on surfaces which do no good for their joints, but worst of all, their movement is micro-managed to the nth degree. In the pursuit of 'biomechanical correctness', variability of movement is eliminated. There is some very solid science to suggest that variation in movement, for all mammals, is key to long-term healthy and functional movement.
Going back to what I stated upthread, I feel that the aim of dressage these days is to make it bigger, flashier, more 'impressive' looking. I can't remember the last time I saw a high-level dressage horse that wasn't behind the vertical. I don't think that modern day dressage has anything to do with healthy movement and I don't see how it benefits the horse in any way; most likely it is to their detriment.
So I will admit that it makes me sad/frustrated that so many people think this performance was stunningly beautiful. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should...
I know that I am in the minority though.
*Edited to add that a lot of equestrians seem to love the aesthetic of a curved neck. In a lot of sales adverts I see people deliberately pulling the neck into an unnatural position to make the horse look 'fancy'. FFS people, let the horse do want he wants with his neck!
Now personally, the horses I have seen (at all levels) with the most persistent lameness and injury, are horses with owners that are dressage focused. They are ridden on tight circles on surfaces which do no good for their joints, but worst of all, their movement is micro-managed to the nth degree. In the pursuit of 'biomechanical correctness', variability of movement is eliminated. There is some very solid science to suggest that variation in movement, for all mammals, is key to long-term healthy and functional movement.
Going back to what I stated upthread, I feel that the aim of dressage these days is to make it bigger, flashier, more 'impressive' looking. I can't remember the last time I saw a high-level dressage horse that wasn't behind the vertical. I don't think that modern day dressage has anything to do with healthy movement and I don't see how it benefits the horse in any way; most likely it is to their detriment.
So I will admit that it makes me sad/frustrated that so many people think this performance was stunningly beautiful. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should...
I know that I am in the minority though.
*Edited to add that a lot of equestrians seem to love the aesthetic of a curved neck. In a lot of sales adverts I see people deliberately pulling the neck into an unnatural position to make the horse look 'fancy'. FFS people, let the horse do want he wants with his neck!
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Chianti
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That was my first thought when I watched the clip but was too frit to post. I think one of the first rules of dressage is that the face isn't behind the vertical? I used to watch a lot of dressage but really struggle with it now. I'd like to see a photo of the horse's trot - a lot now don't seem to have just the diagonal on the ground.
GreyDot
Well-Known Member
Which is a fair comment - but equally unnatural 'non-flight' behaviour in horse racing, show jumping, eventing, barrel racing, endurance. So the defence is not just limited to dressage.
I know this opens up another well-discussed can of worms about horses in sports, but for those who do enjoy dressage, I thought Lottie's freestyle was pretty awesome and Glamourdale looked to move beautifully. I thoroughly loved watching it.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I agree that there are lots of questionable practices in horse sport, in general. Particularly high end.
My issue with dressage in particular, is the extent to which the movement of the horse is micro-managed. Why is it that dressage horses have such a high rate of injury? Because they are puppeteered by the rider, ridden in such a restrictive manner that does not allow for healthy variation in movement. As I said, there is some very solid science to suggest that variation in movement, for all mammals, is key to long-term healthy and functional movement.
I know that the majority of horse people loved watching it, but why? Because it looked flashy, fancy, graceful, to the perception of most equestrians who will find the more 'controlled' disciplines to be the most visually 'impressive' - because we know that it takes a lot of skill from the rider to ask those movements from the horse.
Once again, we have to ask, is this movement in any way healthy to the horse? Is the horse benefitting from this, or is it to his detriment? What is more important to us, if we truly respect these animals? The aesthetics and the visual appeal, or what is happening beneath the surface?
FYI I'm not picking on this particular performance in particular, to me it is just as troubling as any horse ridden in such a restrictive manner.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Is the test not demonstrating variation in movement…?
I thought it was the perfect balance of power and expression with relaxation and control. By far the best performance there and not just because of the quality of the horse, which even in a field like that is breathtaking. I have no interest in even handling a horse of that class and power and I’m way too stiff to ride anything like Lottie can but that forward confidence is something I’ll be trying to emulate.
I thought it was the perfect balance of power and expression with relaxation and control. By far the best performance there and not just because of the quality of the horse, which even in a field like that is breathtaking. I have no interest in even handling a horse of that class and power and I’m way too stiff to ride anything like Lottie can but that forward confidence is something I’ll be trying to emulate.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately not. Variation in movement does not mean a change of transition (e.g. from trot to canter), it means doing the same movement differently each time that said movement is executed.
This sort of goes against the point of dressage as a whole, which is to strive for 'correctness'. The horse does not own their movement, and the rider will micro-manage the horse to move in the exact same way every single time that movement is performed. Beyond the potential injury that repetitive, non-varied movement can cause, the restrained nature of riding in this way is not healthy for the horse.
But I digress...I think that most horse sport is more about the human ego than the health of its equine participants. And once again, I know I'm in the minority.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Not really. That's variation in exercises, not variation in movement. What happens in dressage, just as it happens in human physical and sports training, is that ideal postures get over-prioritised. There's no variability in the process of learning a new skill. This means the body cannot adapt to new stressors - e.g. a new surface, or a non-perfect posture - making injuries more likely.
There's also the issue that dressage traditionally involves a rider dictating every move the horse makes: the stride length, the angling of the body, the head position, etc. It's been mentioned on here several times that pro riders are pros because they can micromanage the horse's every stride. But this means that the horse's chance to learn to learn is affected. They're not given the chance to make errors in the movement and correct themselves, because the rider corrects them for them. This again means that they're more likely to get injured, because their motor development is inhibited.
This isn't to say that dressage tests should involve hundreds of different movements, and that horse and rider combos should be rewarded for being irregular in their movements. Rather, it suggests we need a change in our approach to training dressage horses, following the 'movement' in human sports science towards coaching with movement variation at the forefront.
Spotherisk
Well-Known Member
I knew I didn’t enjoy many of the tests, including Lottie and Glamourdale, but I couldn’t say why other than the real basics, so thank you to all of you who are explaining it so well, I’m learning a lot.
teapot
Well-Known Member
I can appreciate how good Lottie's test was, but give me 5* eventing dressage any day over the pure stuff. #heathen
catembi
Well-Known Member
I really do prefer watching affil elementary/medium level as the horses still look natural & like horses. I will be in the minority of one, but I would be quite happy to see piaffe, passage & canter piris thrown out altogether and 'something else' (haven't got that far yet with my thinking!) brought in. And with top flight sj, I was wondering about reducing the height of the fences and introducing 'something else'...maybe some Le Trec type obstacles...to give the horses some variety & lessen the joint strain?
The ground was very hard on our hack this morning, so we were going very slowly & my mind was wandering. My thoughts are probably best ignored.
The ground was very hard on our hack this morning, so we were going very slowly & my mind was wandering. My thoughts are probably best ignored.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure you are describing working equitation there.....