catembi
Well-Known Member
Might make it more interesting to watch, too..!
Lottie frys test…
- Thread starter blitznbobs
- Start date
Michen
Well-Known Member
I love watching eventing dressage so much more than pure dressage and have no idea why!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Let's play devil's advocate...
Good dressage trainers "allow variation in movement." I have watched quite a lot of Carl Hester's videos and read stuff he's written, and he puts a lot of emphasis on working the horse in a variety of frames and places within the gait and not drilling the super collected stuff. These guys (the good ones, for the sake of argument... there are sh1t trainers in every sport) don't work the horse continuously in that elevated outline with the prancy gaits every single second they ride it. They work in lower frames, they let it move more naturally, and the good ones hack their horses out. Hester, Charlotte Dujardin, Jessica Von Bredl-Werndl, and Isabel Werth all say that they hack their horses. You are watching 8 minutes of a horse being ridden in "a restricted manner," but the good trainers/riders most assuredly do not ride them that way all the time.
Riding the highly collected movements has been around for a very long time. Like Xenophon long time. It's the oldest of the Olympic disciplines. The actual schools, like Saumur and Vienna, of elite riders showing off the high school movements go back to the Middle Ages. Sure, a horse jacked up on adrenaline can piaffe and passage, but the whole point - for the last 2000 years - is to show that with enough training and athleticism, a horse can perform those movements on cue, in a (hopefully) relaxed manner. That's what the high school movements essentially are. I don't find that to be against the neurochemistry of the horse anymore than riding them in the first place. Does riding benefit them? We are, for all intents and purposes, a predator, and it is a lot of work bring them around to the idea of allowing us to sit on their backs and accept the tack and all the other weird stuff we ask of them. Is it more against the neurochemistry of the horse than, say, strapping a dead herbivore like a deer to the back of a Highland pony and asking it to calmly carry it down the hill? Or asking police horses to deal with riots? Or film horses to stay calm and focused amidst the chaos of a movie set? Etc., etc., etc. These animals are highly bred to do these jobs. There is an outside chance that I might be able to ride some of the high school movements on my little PRE, because she's been bred since the 1500s to do that sh1t. The Highland, not so much.
I've been in and out of dressage barns, and for many of these fancy warmbloods, that cadenced, leg-throwing gait is the movement they are born with. Whether that makes them more prone to injuries than your average cob or TB is up for debate. There is an argument for that, for sure. Still, where are you getting your data suggesting that elite dressage horses have a higher rate of injury than horses in other disciplines, or just horses being prats in a field? Does that data even exist, or is there a certain amount of availability heuristics happening? You hear in the news that Carl isn't competing En Vogue due to injury, but you don't hear that Bob Smith isn't competing Joey the cob at BE80 due to injury. Anyway, it's certainly a bit less deathy than elite eventing.
Last edited:
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
Darn fine post Caol Ila!
I think the whole team did well since they were predicted the bronze and without Carl.
It is always a joy to watch a PRE perform a canter pirouette because the tight uphill work is a piece of cake for them. Big rangy WBs are not going to collect and take the weight behind in the same way because they weren't bred to scoop their hiney out of the way of a charging bull. However, in the right hands they can all make it look easy.
Valegro always looked wonderfully relaxed. Not too much tail swishing there as I recall, in fact I've seen far more tail swishing and pinned ears at liberty exhibitions and that's not down to a rider.
Like so many competitive dressage horses Valegro is now retired and still hacking out and trying to load himself on the lorry on competition days and he must be pushing 20. Sandro Hit died last year in retirement aged 28, not too shabby for a horse who won his first championship aged 6 years. And there are many others, still loved and cared for.
I think the whole team did well since they were predicted the bronze and without Carl.
It is always a joy to watch a PRE perform a canter pirouette because the tight uphill work is a piece of cake for them. Big rangy WBs are not going to collect and take the weight behind in the same way because they weren't bred to scoop their hiney out of the way of a charging bull. However, in the right hands they can all make it look easy.
Valegro always looked wonderfully relaxed. Not too much tail swishing there as I recall, in fact I've seen far more tail swishing and pinned ears at liberty exhibitions and that's not down to a rider.
Like so many competitive dressage horses Valegro is now retired and still hacking out and trying to load himself on the lorry on competition days and he must be pushing 20. Sandro Hit died last year in retirement aged 28, not too shabby for a horse who won his first championship aged 6 years. And there are many others, still loved and cared for.
Sleighfarer
Well-Known Member
I do believe he's 22.
j1ffy
Well-Known Member
Personally I loved the test, I've watched it multiple times and (although there are, inevitably, mistakes) I thought it was both exciting and graceful. The relationship between rider and horse is exquisite, whereas her previous GP rides have been very strong in the hand and don't create such a harmonious picture. Seeing that power combined with adjustability is spell-binding.
Caol Ila's post has set out my thoughts far more eloquently than I could. There are issues in all disciplines and ultimately nothing we do with horses is 'natural', just as nothing we do with dogs, livestock and other pets is 'natural'. We've worked with and bred animals to provide us with labour and companionship for millennia which has resulted in a level of co-dependency and the sports horse is the latest iteration of that. (I say this as I watch a neighbour's cat prowl around and play in my garden...I'm pretty sure we haven't had too much influence on that animal ?.)
I take issue with some training techniques and ways of riding, but the data doesn't always back up my opinions. For example I don't enjoy watching Isabel Werth at all, I find her riding too strong and her horses rarely have the sparkle of other recent champions, yet she seems to produce GP horse after GP horse to medal-winning levels and retire them fit and healthy in their late teens. Perhaps her training methods are better than the impression I get? Perhaps the precise and structured approach to training is actually good for the warmbloods she rides? I don't know, but as someone else has pointed out on the thread, there is no strong research to prove good or harm either way.
Caol Ila's post has set out my thoughts far more eloquently than I could. There are issues in all disciplines and ultimately nothing we do with horses is 'natural', just as nothing we do with dogs, livestock and other pets is 'natural'. We've worked with and bred animals to provide us with labour and companionship for millennia which has resulted in a level of co-dependency and the sports horse is the latest iteration of that. (I say this as I watch a neighbour's cat prowl around and play in my garden...I'm pretty sure we haven't had too much influence on that animal ?.)
I take issue with some training techniques and ways of riding, but the data doesn't always back up my opinions. For example I don't enjoy watching Isabel Werth at all, I find her riding too strong and her horses rarely have the sparkle of other recent champions, yet she seems to produce GP horse after GP horse to medal-winning levels and retire them fit and healthy in their late teens. Perhaps her training methods are better than the impression I get? Perhaps the precise and structured approach to training is actually good for the warmbloods she rides? I don't know, but as someone else has pointed out on the thread, there is no strong research to prove good or harm either way.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Yes, dressage horses have lower rates of certain injuries. They also have higher rates of injuries that other disciplines don't have. (See the below cited articles' dressage sections for examples.) Let's not start with the old "X is worse" or the "all horse riding is unnatural anyway" arguments - which notably get shut down in racing debates, but are apparently acceptable in dressage discussions? Eventing being 'deathy' doesn't mean dressage doesn't have room for improvement. And, yes, there is a need for more studies of injury rates in dressage, and there's certainly a need for studies examining how common hacking and varied terrain is for dressage horses. It's the same few names that always get mentioned, which isn't a particularly good sample for the sport as a whole.
Some work on damage caused by the nature of the discipline.
"Horses that move extravagantly at non-elite levels may be prone to injury to the proximal aspect of the suspensory ligament in forelimbs because of insufficient muscle strength and coordination to prevent hyperextension of the carpus and metacarpophalangeal joint during extension.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tvjl.2009.03.020
“Due to the stresses caused by the excessive hindlimb reaching required in dressage (‘impulsion’), hock pain and bone spavin are common maladies of both dressage and event horses.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-7020-2671-3.50054-4
“The tarsus was more frequently injured in the elite compared to nonelite dressage horses, which could be related to the increased loading and joint compression in the elite horses (Holmstrom and Drevemo 1997).”
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2006.tb05578.x
“Many talented young horses that are professionally produced for sale by auction are worked in a much bigger trot than a true working trot, which also results in high loads on the suspensory apparatus, predisposing to injury in all four limbs.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-1-4160-6069-7.00116-4
“Elite horses tended to be off work for longer, possibly reflecting differences in the severity of lameness, in the level of athletic requirements in the elite and non-elite horse, or in the ability of a skilled or less skilled rider to detect or mask ongoing problems”
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tvjl.2009.03.020
Some work on damage caused by the nature of the discipline.
"Horses that move extravagantly at non-elite levels may be prone to injury to the proximal aspect of the suspensory ligament in forelimbs because of insufficient muscle strength and coordination to prevent hyperextension of the carpus and metacarpophalangeal joint during extension.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tvjl.2009.03.020
“Due to the stresses caused by the excessive hindlimb reaching required in dressage (‘impulsion’), hock pain and bone spavin are common maladies of both dressage and event horses.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-7020-2671-3.50054-4
“The tarsus was more frequently injured in the elite compared to nonelite dressage horses, which could be related to the increased loading and joint compression in the elite horses (Holmstrom and Drevemo 1997).”
https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2006.tb05578.x
“Many talented young horses that are professionally produced for sale by auction are worked in a much bigger trot than a true working trot, which also results in high loads on the suspensory apparatus, predisposing to injury in all four limbs.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-1-4160-6069-7.00116-4
“Elite horses tended to be off work for longer, possibly reflecting differences in the severity of lameness, in the level of athletic requirements in the elite and non-elite horse, or in the ability of a skilled or less skilled rider to detect or mask ongoing problems”
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tvjl.2009.03.020
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I'm not sure that discussion of movement of non-elite horses adds to this particular debate. Many elite riders i have watched or listened to their training have emphasised the need to keep movement small and controllable until a scopey horse has the strength to use it without simply pushing itself off balance or worse, resulting in injury.
Likewise, many high level pros are publically dismissive of "auction trots". this is a black mark on the commercial breeding programmes more so than what we see delivered in a 20x60 championship ring, i believe. I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with Carl (sorry yes he comes up a lot because he's accessible and eloquent) where he said he would not look at a horse's auction trot as a measure of what it will be capable of later (paraphrasing). Glamourdale is not IMO auction trotting. That's trick training and doesn't create the supple throughness and adjustability that you need to get 90% at GP. The videos of him as a younger horse that were circulating on FB recently showed a clear progression in training, starting with a naturally impressive 3yo and becoming the horse he is now.
Additionally, is there a chicken/egg thing going on about length of time they are out of the sport with injury? Grand Prix dressage is undeniably hard on horses, why would a rider risk bringing back a horse that hadn't had a suitable length of recovery time. many will have other rides so can give the horse as long/additional time, unlike your average amateur who just has the one.... and who generally demands less of their horse in the first place. Dunno, it's just my hypothesis. i couldn't seem to access the whole paper.
there's an argument that breeding to select horses that naturally have scope, suppleness and are born in an outline should make the whole process less physically strenuous. i think those natural athletes are the ones who make the young horse classes look like they've done a ton of work, when they really have a brave and skillful rider who can exhibit the raw and natural talent without breaking a sweat
I don't think anyone is denying that there are issues, as with all horse sports. If the aim is to have a reasoned discussion then whataboutery is not helpful on either side IMO. And if you hate watching it... save your eyes and don't watch it.. though i grew up doing it, i don't love eventing dressage much so would just avoid watching days of it!
Likewise, many high level pros are publically dismissive of "auction trots". this is a black mark on the commercial breeding programmes more so than what we see delivered in a 20x60 championship ring, i believe. I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with Carl (sorry yes he comes up a lot because he's accessible and eloquent) where he said he would not look at a horse's auction trot as a measure of what it will be capable of later (paraphrasing). Glamourdale is not IMO auction trotting. That's trick training and doesn't create the supple throughness and adjustability that you need to get 90% at GP. The videos of him as a younger horse that were circulating on FB recently showed a clear progression in training, starting with a naturally impressive 3yo and becoming the horse he is now.
Additionally, is there a chicken/egg thing going on about length of time they are out of the sport with injury? Grand Prix dressage is undeniably hard on horses, why would a rider risk bringing back a horse that hadn't had a suitable length of recovery time. many will have other rides so can give the horse as long/additional time, unlike your average amateur who just has the one.... and who generally demands less of their horse in the first place. Dunno, it's just my hypothesis. i couldn't seem to access the whole paper.
there's an argument that breeding to select horses that naturally have scope, suppleness and are born in an outline should make the whole process less physically strenuous. i think those natural athletes are the ones who make the young horse classes look like they've done a ton of work, when they really have a brave and skillful rider who can exhibit the raw and natural talent without breaking a sweat
I don't think anyone is denying that there are issues, as with all horse sports. If the aim is to have a reasoned discussion then whataboutery is not helpful on either side IMO. And if you hate watching it... save your eyes and don't watch it..
though i grew up doing it, i don't love eventing dressage much so would just avoid watching days of it!tristar
Well-Known Member
the posture in which a horse ``does things``is really what counts, not just the frame, the whole body thing
a horse of ours regularly adopts the perfect posture when being lunged, the shoulders and neck raised, nose in front of vertical, pushing off the ground carrying with the rear end and the poll as the highest point.
just sayin really it is there and is natural, it can be done and by the horse on its own with no rider [to ruin the effect] !
totally spectacular to see, well it can be seen because you are on the ground not on the horse, and its calm, its the horse carrying itself
i`ve had horses over the years that could do a test on their own almost, without the interference of a rider
the way a horse is trained and how hard it is worked is the key, you do not need to pound a horse into unsoundness to get good work, a horse can learn the higher movements and not do them for weeks then come back and do them even better because they learn how to do them and carry a rider
skill in producing a horse has a large element of judgement, how far to go when to rest, like creating a work of art
a horse of ours regularly adopts the perfect posture when being lunged, the shoulders and neck raised, nose in front of vertical, pushing off the ground carrying with the rear end and the poll as the highest point.
just sayin really it is there and is natural, it can be done and by the horse on its own with no rider [to ruin the effect] !
totally spectacular to see, well it can be seen because you are on the ground not on the horse, and its calm, its the horse carrying itself
i`ve had horses over the years that could do a test on their own almost, without the interference of a rider
the way a horse is trained and how hard it is worked is the key, you do not need to pound a horse into unsoundness to get good work, a horse can learn the higher movements and not do them for weeks then come back and do them even better because they learn how to do them and carry a rider
skill in producing a horse has a large element of judgement, how far to go when to rest, like creating a work of art
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I only started the "whataboutery" because Millie argued that piaffe/passage were unnatural because horses only perform those at liberty when hyped up on adrenaline. I simply pointed out that they are no more "unnatural" than a million other things we ask horses to do. Of course dessage can improve. All horse sport can.
The study where they surveyed BD members is interesting, although I could not read any of these because I can't access journals through an institution anymore. I just looked at the abstracts. Not sure what 22% response rate of your questionaire gets you - not as much data as you'd like. It is, however, well-known that working on a surface increases the risk of ligament/tissue injury - for any horse (well-known-ish....there's a large proportion of liveries at my yard who only work in the school, despite being on the doorstep of some of the best hacking in the bloody county). I've been very mindful of this when developing two green horses, and I was mindful of it with my old horse, who was sound until age 27, even though she was too long in the back and very loose-coupled. Also, breeding horses for huge movement has been talked about as a variable that might well increase risk of injury. I'm not wild about the young horse classes, either, and Carl (yes, bringing him up again....but he engages with the press and punters more than most top trainers and tells us what goes into the process) says success at those isn't very indicative of potential at GP.
When training horses to the upper echelons of dressage, there will always be injury risks because of the nature of the movements and performing them on a surface. Good horsemen/women cross-train with hacking on a variety of footing and such, which hopefully helps mitigate it. I'd love to see studies supporting this, but don't know how you would construct one, though. When doing a survey study of BD members, like the one mentioned above, there are about a million variables you can't control for and you have to be careful about conclusions you draw from self-selecting surveys.
As an aside, I wonder what the dropout rate is like for the Spanish Riding School. The stallions who perform the high school movements usually do so well into their 20s, but I can't imagine that every young Lipizzan they start ends up being a haute ecole horse.
The study where they surveyed BD members is interesting, although I could not read any of these because I can't access journals through an institution anymore. I just looked at the abstracts. Not sure what 22% response rate of your questionaire gets you - not as much data as you'd like. It is, however, well-known that working on a surface increases the risk of ligament/tissue injury - for any horse (well-known-ish....there's a large proportion of liveries at my yard who only work in the school, despite being on the doorstep of some of the best hacking in the bloody county). I've been very mindful of this when developing two green horses, and I was mindful of it with my old horse, who was sound until age 27, even though she was too long in the back and very loose-coupled. Also, breeding horses for huge movement has been talked about as a variable that might well increase risk of injury. I'm not wild about the young horse classes, either, and Carl (yes, bringing him up again....but he engages with the press and punters more than most top trainers and tells us what goes into the process) says success at those isn't very indicative of potential at GP.
When training horses to the upper echelons of dressage, there will always be injury risks because of the nature of the movements and performing them on a surface. Good horsemen/women cross-train with hacking on a variety of footing and such, which hopefully helps mitigate it. I'd love to see studies supporting this, but don't know how you would construct one, though. When doing a survey study of BD members, like the one mentioned above, there are about a million variables you can't control for and you have to be careful about conclusions you draw from self-selecting surveys.
As an aside, I wonder what the dropout rate is like for the Spanish Riding School. The stallions who perform the high school movements usually do so well into their 20s, but I can't imagine that every young Lipizzan they start ends up being a haute ecole horse.
Last edited:
claracanter
Well-Known Member
I was just saying this to a friend yesterday. I’m glad that you feel the same way.
I think the partnership and the test is amazing BUT
what’s the difference between this and a circus performance, other than the snobbery of course. The music makes it even more ‘ circusy’ as well!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Horses are domestic animals, and lions, seals, and dolphins are not?
The GP movements (and the haute ecole, which you don't see at FEI or normal dressage competitions) are very old. Showing off training mastery and equine athleticism since the Middle Ages. Riding dressage to music has also been around for a lot longer than the FEI. Below are some videos from Jerez, one of the other old schools of equestrian art.
These debates crop up on racing and eventing threads too, just with different participants. Perhaps the fundamental disagreement lies between people who are okay with asking horses to perform feats of great athleticism and power while submitting to a rider/handler (regardless of whether it's dressage, racing, eventing, showjumping, or anything else), and people who believe it is too exploitative and risks injury to animals who cannot consent. I'm okay with being in the former category. As I see it, a horse is not like a captive orca at SeaWorld. Equus caballus is not just a captive version of Equus przewalski, its closest wild relative. Like all domestic animals, it has been with humans over the past 6000 years in a symbiotic relationship, bred to work with us, developing civilization as we know it. Sport has been a part of that story along with transport and war.
I guess I won't convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced to see upper level dressage as more than "circus tricks" (has anyone in the history of the internet ever convinced someone else to change their mind??), but some of you might enjoy it.
The GP movements (and the haute ecole, which you don't see at FEI or normal dressage competitions) are very old. Showing off training mastery and equine athleticism since the Middle Ages. Riding dressage to music has also been around for a lot longer than the FEI. Below are some videos from Jerez, one of the other old schools of equestrian art.
These debates crop up on racing and eventing threads too, just with different participants. Perhaps the fundamental disagreement lies between people who are okay with asking horses to perform feats of great athleticism and power while submitting to a rider/handler (regardless of whether it's dressage, racing, eventing, showjumping, or anything else), and people who believe it is too exploitative and risks injury to animals who cannot consent. I'm okay with being in the former category. As I see it, a horse is not like a captive orca at SeaWorld. Equus caballus is not just a captive version of Equus przewalski, its closest wild relative. Like all domestic animals, it has been with humans over the past 6000 years in a symbiotic relationship, bred to work with us, developing civilization as we know it. Sport has been a part of that story along with transport and war.
I guess I won't convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced to see upper level dressage as more than "circus tricks" (has anyone in the history of the internet ever convinced someone else to change their mind??), but some of you might enjoy it.
Last edited:
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
this was why i was determined to not reply for quite a long time, until you did, basically
Personally, I totally have doublethink going on with all horse sports, i both believe we have no right to ride a horse at all, and also enjoy doing and watching it. The way i square my own participation with myself is to try and watch, support and train with people who i genuinely think have the right principles and approach to it all.... and there are numerous examples in the elite end of the sport which i think has swayed more and more towards those folk over the last decade.
tristar
Well-Known Member
the `nature of the movements` is supposed to benefit the horse, not break it down, done well they are beautiful, done incorrectly they are not beautiful and do not build up the horse physically
horses does not always passage, piaffe loose because they are hyped up with fear, there is a difference between alert for a predator and joie de vivre many horses show and when playing, they are engaged mentally and physically
horses does not always passage, piaffe loose because they are hyped up with fear, there is a difference between alert for a predator and joie de vivre many horses show and when playing, they are engaged mentally and physically
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
This is in no way expressing a personal opinion, I just thought this graphic was an interesting one.. It's taken from Lottie's extended canter
Caveat by saying that I don't speak french and have no idea what the french text says.
Caveat by saying that I don't speak french and have no idea what the french text says.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
The graphic is basically saying that the FEI definition for an extended canter includes lengthening the frame and that Lottie scores a 9.9 for this movement with the head behind the vertical and therefore not meeting the FEI definition.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
I do think that the "it's always been done, therefore ..." argument is a little spurious, given that if we based everything on this we would still be bear baiting and hanging people for stealing a sheep. We need people who are willing to monitor horse sport and ensure that it is still appropriate in terms of welfare and exploitation, and I can't see a problem with that - and it shouldn't be a problem for anyone involved in the sport either.
And my initial comment about performing seals was as a direct result of the type of comments I was seeing all over the internet about Lottie Fry's test, which had far less to do with people understanding the pure dressage involved and more to do with the average watcher being "blown away" by the "spectacle", which is where the issues lie for me. Particularly when you actually analyse the test and see that it wasn't all as wonderful as is being claimed.
this was why i was determined to not reply for quite a long time, until you did, basically
Personally, I totally have doublethink going on with all horse sports, i both believe we have no right to ride a horse at all, and also enjoy doing and watching it. The way i square my own participation with myself is to try and watch, support and train with people who i genuinely think have the right principles and approach to it all.... and there are numerous examples in the elite end of the sport which i think has swayed more and more towards those folk over the last decade.
And this is where I'm at - if I'm going to get over my discomfort at the whole thing, I have to ensure that I'm doing the best I can by my own horses and those I have worked with over the years.
Chianti
Well-Known Member
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
No I would say it started with Anky and Bonfire. Horse was talented but v.hot to ride so she used Rolkur to produce submission. Won everything going and then went around teaching clinics of it everywhere.
Chianti
Well-Known Member
Yes. I agree about the use of rolkur. I was thinking more about people becoming more focused on how flash the test looked. I remember Totilas had what I thought was a very strange trot and his front and back ends didn't seem to be connected.
stangs
Well-Known Member
And one fore often came up higher than the other iirc, especially in the extended trot. Wasn’t a pretty sight at all.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
If you look at the tests on YouTube of Bonfire, his extended trots aren't even close to tracking up yet alone over tracking. Then compare that to the same thing in Totilas as Ankys trainer had become the Dutch team trainer.....
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
The main difference I can see is that the Highland pony/police horses/film horses have a much higher degree of freedom over his/her movement. Forced postures with a high repetition rate/low variability cause micro-trauma. Stang's post #86 describes this well. I'd love to see all of these top Dressage horses being ridden bridleless, to see where they choose to hold their neck. I'm sure it would look a whole lot different.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Are we ignoring the advice from top riders themselves to vary positioning and frame throughout a training session and over the longer term?
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
*This*
rara007
Well-Known Member
The idea that a highland working carrying stags has more variation in movement than a dressage horse in training makes me smile.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
it might help, from an understanding each other POV, if we could identify examples of horse and rider combinations that were notable for some of these points. From my own perspective, i have watched and received training from a number of the british team riders, from demos and yard visits to individual lessons and i have never seen any of them advocate forced postures or repetitive movements. Pretty much the opposite. Emphasis on not over drilling, on variety, on maintaining soundness of mind and body, developing elasticity through adjusting movements, differing intensity and stretching and so on. i firmly believe that this approach is the stuff that wins medals these days. the days of stiff german-style pushing and pulling, and dutch horses going overbent are fading away, it might still happen but it doesn't win the gold medals any more, so people will have to adjust their methods if they want to take the top spots.
Perhaps we are at crossed purposes because people do have these (what i consider now) outdated methods in mind? or is there a conflation of consistency and precision with force? because to me, those are different.
Perhaps we are at crossed purposes because people do have these (what i consider now) outdated methods in mind? or is there a conflation of consistency and precision with force? because to me, those are different.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
What Milliepops said. All of it.
I actually don't want my horse to choose where to hold his head and neck when we're schooling in the arena or even trotting on the trail. He will hold his head really high and turn his back into a banana. This is true for many horses. It's worse for the horse when it's carrying a rider in this position. The analogy I was taught is architecture - there are reasons why bridges and flying buttresses, say, are constructed around an arch. It's a damned sight stronger and better able to bear a load than most other things. When we are sitting on the horse's back, it is healithier for them, in the long run, to be an arch rather than a banana, and to carry more weight behind. It's a lot less wearing on their bodies when they are lifting our fat butts correctly. In early stages of training, the horse might choose to go inverted because it's easier, but the horse doesn't know that it's easier to carry the rider when lifting its back and stepping under with its hind end.
Right now, I'm spending a lot of time teaching Hermosa correct posture on the long reins, so she develops more topline before I ride her, and hopefully doesn't become an inverted, stiff banana (that really came out wrong) when I finally get on board. On the single line lunge, if I do nothing, she is quite happy to run around on the forehand, counterbent, with her head in the air. Just because she's choosing it doesn't mean it's the right choice, or the one that will make ridden work easier.
With the other horse, I'm not cranking his nose to his chest, but I'm gently encouraging vertical flexion and getting his hocks underneath him, and rewarding him like crazy when he does it. Currently working on it in the Western hackamore. You don't need a double bridle or any bit for this stuff.
Once we have the horse lifting his back and using his a*rse, you can compress or extend the frame - depending on his education, conformation, and your riding discipline.
That's what dressage fundamentally is. Teaching the horse a stronger way to carry a rider.
I actually don't want my horse to choose where to hold his head and neck when we're schooling in the arena or even trotting on the trail. He will hold his head really high and turn his back into a banana. This is true for many horses. It's worse for the horse when it's carrying a rider in this position. The analogy I was taught is architecture - there are reasons why bridges and flying buttresses, say, are constructed around an arch. It's a damned sight stronger and better able to bear a load than most other things. When we are sitting on the horse's back, it is healithier for them, in the long run, to be an arch rather than a banana, and to carry more weight behind. It's a lot less wearing on their bodies when they are lifting our fat butts correctly. In early stages of training, the horse might choose to go inverted because it's easier, but the horse doesn't know that it's easier to carry the rider when lifting its back and stepping under with its hind end.
Right now, I'm spending a lot of time teaching Hermosa correct posture on the long reins, so she develops more topline before I ride her, and hopefully doesn't become an inverted, stiff banana (that really came out wrong) when I finally get on board. On the single line lunge, if I do nothing, she is quite happy to run around on the forehand, counterbent, with her head in the air. Just because she's choosing it doesn't mean it's the right choice, or the one that will make ridden work easier.
With the other horse, I'm not cranking his nose to his chest, but I'm gently encouraging vertical flexion and getting his hocks underneath him, and rewarding him like crazy when he does it. Currently working on it in the Western hackamore. You don't need a double bridle or any bit for this stuff.
Once we have the horse lifting his back and using his a*rse, you can compress or extend the frame - depending on his education, conformation, and your riding discipline.
That's what dressage fundamentally is. Teaching the horse a stronger way to carry a rider.
tristar
Well-Known Member
they also are specifically addressing the judges, and saying the combination did not meet the criterea set for awarding marks, and yet you are awarding 9. 9 for something that is incorrect
suggesting reform needs to start with judging
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
This is what we see in the ring under the needs of competition, because every mistake loses you points, so of course they are directing every single step. But it isn't what happens at home with good trainers.