Lottie frys test…

[AntiPuck]

The video was posted on my yard chat group, to a chorus of "stunning!","beautiful!", "what a combination!".

I watched it and felt a bit sad. I saw a horse with two bits in its mouth and an overly-tightened noseband, constantly opening its mouth to try and avoid the discomfort of both, and with it's neck overbent such that it was probably not breathing very easily at all.

Where is the harmony in that, I just don't get it.

Maybe I just need to go read more about classical dressage and then I'll agree that it's necessary to contort horses in this way to win dressage competitions.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

they also are specifically addressing the judges, and saying the combination did not meet the criterea set for awarding marks, and yet you are awarding 9. 9 for something that is incorrect

suggesting reform needs to start with judging

This is something that I don't quite understand. It isn't exactly rare that certain movements in certain tests do not meet the criteria set for awarding high marks/executing the movement correctly, yet 9.9 or other marks above 9 are given. I've seen this with piaffe quite a bit.

So if you aren't using the FEI definition/criteria to judge movements and award points, what are you using?

 

[shortstuff99]

Double bridle is currently mandatory at international level, so no choice on that.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Interestingly, re the double, some riders rode with some slack in their curb rein. Which was nice to see because they only used it as needed when the communication was needed. Instead of riding with the curb (Weymouth) cranked parallel (or close) to the ground for the entire test.

 

[shortstuff99]

This is something that I don't quite understand. It isn't exactly rare that certain movements in certain tests do not meet the criteria set for awarding high marks/executing the movement correctly, yet 9.9 or other marks above 9 are given. I've seen this with piaffe quite a bit.

So if you aren't using the FEI definition/criteria to judge movements and award points, what are you using?

I have had many strong discussions on this forum how 90%+ of the piaffes I see at top level can't even be called a piaffe yet are scoring 9s and 10s (Werth I'm looking at you ?). Views are often that being on the spot and having enough steps can be enough but for me that kills my classic soul ?

 

[ycbm]

I just watched the test with the sound turned off and it's amazing what a difference it makes. Instead of almost bringing tears to my eyes I saw a horse with a set looking neck and a constantly unsteady mouth. He appears to be tooth clacking a lot of the time. Isn't that tension?

Didn't unsteady mouths used to be marked down, like tall swishing? Is that not the case any more? Maybe those mark deductions should be brought back?

I'm still awed by the partnership and Lottie's riding ability.
..

 

[Barton Bounty]

Thanks for posting this! I dont have facebook so I would have missed it, how fantastic was it! And the music

 

[stangs]

The idea that a highland working carrying stags has more variation in movement than a dressage horse in training makes me smile.

Perhaps this is a semantics issue. The variation being discussed by physios and whatnot currently is a far cry from the “variation” that’s been in sports science circles for decades.

The body of a highland carrying stands has to make a huge amount of adjustments. They have to shift their own weight to counterbalance the dead weight (whereas a rider mostly balances themselves). They have to navigate uneven terrain, which requires variation in footfall, stride length, pace. This variation is continuous, and therefore will be far greater than a horse on an artificial surface, whose rider’s commands regarding stride length/pace aim to fall into discrete categories. And then, of course, there’s variation in slope, so the animal has to shift its weight more to the front/hind depending on the gradient, and, if the gradient is steep, it’ll really have to bend its fores/hinds to make the route. Watch a slo-mo video of hooves moving over rocky terrain, and then one of hooves moving in an arena. That’s a huge amount of difference in just the lower leg and hoof.

Try some ankle exercises on a balance board, barefoot. Feel how many adjustments your lower leg, ankle and foot need to make to keep you upright. This is what we mean when we say variation in movement - what a highland carrying a stag is doing. The dressage horse varies in exercise, but these micro adjustments are often limited.

it might help, from an understanding each other POV, if we could identify examples of horse and rider combinations that were notable for some of these points.

Most successful dressage rider I personally knew (not naming names for obvious reasons, but they were working at GP when we stopped talking) was huge about frame variation, letting the horse stretch and supple, blah blah. That said, they lunged in side reins that were always the same length. Rode in a long and low frame, then a deep frame, and then a high/tight frame for most of the schooling session, and that was it. Thought their horse was too likely to injure themselves out hacking (or in a field) so didn’t do any of that. But, had you never watched them ride, the way they talked would have made you think they were practically at the forefront of modern sport science, with all they said about “variation”. But, again, this “variation” in frame and exercises was discrete whereas real variation and movement complexity is multilinear and continuous.

Technically, if you wanted true, complete variation, you'd have to ask for horses to put weight on the forehand sometimes, to be crooked sometimes (properly crooked, not shoulder-ins and the like). I don't suppose anyone knows a dressage rider does either of those things (on purpose)?

 

[AntiPuck]

Double bridle is currently mandatory at international level, so no choice on that.

The only one in that situation who had no choice was the horse.

 

[milliepops]

I don't understand why you'd deliberately work a horse crooked. They have a spare 23 hours a day to nurture their natural crookedness. Aren't you inviting injury by loading a crooked horse with a rider on purpose?

The riders I know and follow do hack and turn their horses out so they are getting opportunities to do movement that is not "dressage" routinely. That's why I think examples help to understand the discussion, because I think different people have different experiences of what is a very broad church, and to say all dressage riders hold their horses in a tight frame at all times is not true because it does not relate to the ones I see, train with or would wish to emulate.

 

[tristar]

heres a big cat in the pigeons folks, probably because some will not like it, but here goes anyway

we were over at dublin horse show yesterday

15 mins was all it took, gari zoher and his luso stallions, he entered the ring riding one and with several loose, after about 3 seconds tears were rolling down my face and i could not talk, he is on you tube for anyone who cares watch, but it needs to be seen in the flesh for the full effect, believe me

after watching all the others, yes some were nice ect, poncing around all day, everyone said it was worth going just see him, and ireland is not noted for its iberian fan club but there was more people watching than the international show jumping, and the place was in uproar where we were standing

ah what it was to be transported to heaven if only for 15 mins

now i`m not saying it was perfect, but while we are talking about piaffe etc, how about a loose luso performing piaffe om command, with it its head in front of the vertical

take a look on facebook also
nearly every horse that day from ponies upwards were working not bending properly and behind the vertical, so they where never going to show how good they could really be
so when i saw the lusos i nearly fell over from shock!

lady gascoigne who loves the palominos would have been in her element several pal lusos


anyhow just thought i`d mention it as i know how many people love the lusos !

his main ridden one is similar to pedro torres `s oxidado in the flesh

 

[rabatsa]

Ben Atkinson also works his horses doing classical movements at liberty.

Pammy Hutton's dressage horses go x counrty.

 

[ester]

Yes and some of those that do said movements at liberty make me cry for the opposite reason.
Not quite sure how we’ve got from a a dressage test to hauling stags but hey ho ?

 

[tristar]

Yes and some of those that do said movements at liberty make me cry for the opposite reason.
Not quite sure how we’ve got from a a dressage test to hauling stags but hey ho ?

here, have a tissue

 

[Cortez]

Interestingly, re the double, some riders rode with some slack in their curb rein. Which was nice to see because they only used it as needed when the communication was needed. Instead of riding with the curb (Weymouth) cranked parallel (or close) to the ground for the entire test.

I must say that I haven't seen that at FEI level - it most certainly would be heavily penalised in competition, can you give an example?

What a lot of people fail to understand about the curb bit is that, properly used on a trained horse by an educated rider, there is actually much less pressure and discomfort for the horse than the blunt instrument of the snaffle bit. There seems to be the impression in this part of the world that a curb-type bit is severe or cruel, while the snaffle is somehow kind and mild. Judging by the number of horses being hauled around in snaffles I would say that the opposite is true, and far more prevalent.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Nope. I know nothing about curb bits or what I saw, so never mind.

 

[splashgirl45]

What Milliepops said. All of it.



I actually don't want my horse to choose where to hold his head and neck when we're schooling in the arena or even trotting on the trail. He will hold his head really high and turn his back into a banana. This is true for many horses. It's worse for the horse when it's carrying a rider in this position. The analogy I was taught is architecture - there are reasons why bridges and flying buttresses, say, are constructed around an arch. It's a damned sight stronger and better able to bear a load than most other things. When we are sitting on the horse's back, it is healithier for them, in the long run, to be an arch rather than a banana, and to carry more weight behind. It's a lot less wearing on their bodies when they are lifting our fat butts correctly. In early stages of training, the horse might choose to go inverted because it's easier, but the horse doesn't know that it's easier to carry the rider when lifting its back and stepping under with its hind end.

Right now, I'm spending a lot of time teaching Hermosa correct posture on the long reins, so she develops more topline before I ride her, and hopefully doesn't become an inverted, stiff banana (that really came out wrong) when I finally get on board. On the single line lunge, if I do nothing, she is quite happy to run around on the forehand, counterbent, with her head in the air. Just because she's choosing it doesn't mean it's the right choice, or the one that will make ridden work easier.

With the other horse, I'm not cranking his nose to his chest, but I'm gently encouraging vertical flexion and getting his hocks underneath him, and rewarding him like crazy when he does it. Currently working on it in the Western hackamore. You don't need a double bridle or any bit for this stuff.

Once we have the horse lifting his back and using his a*rse, you can compress or extend the frame - depending on his education, conformation, and your riding discipline.

That's what dressage fundamentally is. Teaching the horse a stronger way to carry a rider.

great post and well explained.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think there are multiple conversations happening here, criss-crossing around one another.

One is about Lottie's test and whether she should have got the score they gave her. I see all sides of that. When the horse was in motion, it looked smooth and harmonious, but you can see in some of the photos that he's tight and overbent. I would like to see a more open frame and better piaffes rewarded more at internatonal competition. The judging is better than it was pre-Valegro, but I think it has a ways to go.

The other seems to be about dressage generally. Some of you seem to be debating whether or not we should tell horses how to carry their bodies, "micro-manage" their steps, or train movements like piaffe and passage at all. My posts have mostly been addressing this. I love watching a good piaffe and passage, especially when done by an Iberian, or Valegro, which makes it look easy and joyful. That's how we got into Highland ponies and stags. It's not any more unnatural to train a horse to piaffe than it is to train one to carry a large dead animal off a mountain. A lot of desensitization goes into training deer ponies.

Even when hacking, slobbing along on a long rein, I try to encourage my horse to be straight. His natural state of crookedness involves leaning a bit on the left shoulder. We do little shoulder-ins and leg yields to get him off it. When I school him now, I can already feel the difference. He's much easier to steer around the arena because he is straighter. When I first got him, it was hard work to simply trot in a straight line down the long side. Now he does that easily. It's also a nicer, softer ride for me when he lifts his back. A stiff, hollow horse feels like sitting on a 2x4.

I also think dressage glued my old horse together. She was long through the back and loose-coupled and weak through the loin area. Had that horse been allowed to choose her frame and go around however she wanted without developing her abs and topline, she probably would not have been sound until age 27. The hind end weakness, which was always kind of there, got her in the end when I had to stop riding her.

Like milliepops said, dressage is a broad church. Are there dressage riders who work their horses in a tight frame and never leave the arena? For sure. Are there ones who hack out, turn out, cross-train other disciplines? For sure.

 

[Chianti]

I just watched the test with the sound turned off and it's amazing what a difference it makes. Instead of almost bringing tears to my eyes I saw a horse with a set looking neck and a constantly unsteady mouth. He appears to be tooth clacking a lot of the time. Isn't that tension?

Didn't unsteady mouths used to be marked down, like tall swishing? Is that not the case any more? Maybe those mark deductions should be brought back?

I'm still awed by the partnership and Lottie's riding ability.
..

Then if it has to have the stirring music to get the response the rider is hoping for then isn't something wrong with the event? Doesn't it just become something that P T Barnum would put on for the punters? I've started to think that riders shouldn't be marked as the test happens but the judges should watch it in real time and then again on video - using slow motion when necessary. Maybe then they'd notice the face behind the vertical, blue tongues and the signs of stress - especially how the eye looks.

 

[Rowreach]

Then if it has to have the stirring music to get the response the rider is hoping for then isn't something wrong with the event? Doesn't it just become something that P T Barnum would put on for the punters? I've started to think that riders shouldn't be marked as the test happens but the judges should watch it in real time and then again on video - using slow motion when necessary. Maybe then they'd notice the face behind the vertical, blue tongues and the signs of stress - especially how the eye looks.

When you have a competition that’s being partially marked on the theatrics, the music and the spectacle, all these things seem to become secondary.

 

[Chianti]

When you have a competition that’s being partially marked on the theatrics, the music and the spectacle, all these things seem to become secondary.

Yes. The Kur puts bums on seats and is the money maker.

 

[sakura]

When you have a competition that’s being partially marked on the theatrics, the music and the spectacle, all these things seem to become secondary.

Figure skating is the same way in that respect, except there's no animals involved (it has it's own ethical issues).

 

[milliepops]

They've already done two straight tests to get to the music class though. It's not like there is no qualification process to get into the freestyle, only the top ones from the previous days of GP and GPS get to ride to their stirring music. So I don't think it's fair to say the entire show is just theatrics, there is all the technical stuff to perform in the days prior. I think the freestyle is more appealing to spectators because of the variety, rather than watching the same test over and over.

 

[TPO]

Hope all the sofa experts are watching Strictly with the music off before casting their votes ??

 

[milliepops]

Sevennnnnnnn!

 

[teapot]

Maybe scores could be done for the freestyle in the same way?

 

[milliepops]

When they do audience scoring its often pretty much in line with the judges ?

 

[Rowreach]

They've already done two straight tests to get to the music class though. It's not like there is no qualification process to get into the freestyle, only the top ones from the previous days of GP and GPS get to ride to their stirring music. So I don't think it's fair to say the entire show is just theatrics, there is all the technical stuff to perform in the days prior. I think the freestyle is more appealing to spectators because of the variety, rather than watching the same test over and over.

Um, I didn’t say that the entire show is just theatrics?? My point was that the theatrics are what many people are focused on when watching and so the technical stuff is sometimes overlooked.

Hope all the sofa experts are watching Strictly with the music off before casting their votes ??

Sometimes the sofa experts have a point.

 

[milliepops]

Although we used the same word it wasn't just your post I had in mind. Sorry if it came across like that.

 

[ester]

Watching comments elsewhere a lot seemed to think the background music for the special was actually kur